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SAM64's Avatar SAM64
10:41 AM Liked: 74
post #31 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 1,592
Joined: Apr 2011
Quote:
I bought some there and it was green within a few months. It oxidized really badly.

Didn't take any science classes eh?
Copper, regardless of its origin, will react with other elements in the environment. Believe it or not, this surface corrosion doesn't have any effect on the transmission of current.

Not knowing the difference between an oxide, sulphate or chloride, doesn't instill much confidence in your determination.
Chu Gai's Avatar Chu Gai
10:42 AM Liked: 631
post #32 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 15,058
Joined: Sep 2002
Is the GE wire 100% copper or...?
ehaze1's Avatar ehaze1
10:49 AM Liked: 10
post #33 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 2
Joined: Jun 2012
don't be cheap...is this one speaker? use not less than 14ga good quailty wire not the home depot type ...you will hear the difference hear is a link to a question that I did on this issue on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Monster-100-Feet-Speaker-Cable/product-reviews/B00006345D/ref=cm_cr_pr_top_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Ratman's Avatar Ratman
10:54 AM Liked: 333
post #34 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 14,797
Joined: May 2002
Buy speaker wire with opaque insulation. You'll never see or hear a difference.
Geoff4RFC's Avatar Geoff4RFC
12:00 PM Liked: 1368
post #35 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 3,712
Joined: May 2010
Wow, the dead truly do rise smile.gif I thought I was reading something current. The OP has probably experimented with all kinds of cable by now.

I got my first cable from Lowe's, roll of 100ft 14awg, never turned green, RCA brand, really good stuff. Eventually went with Monoprice in wall for a nice little diy project, cable pants, techflex, heat shrink, banana plugs, so when friends come over and see my cable runs and say wow, how much did that cost, I tell them, oh about 500 per foot biggrin.gif
pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin
12:17 PM Liked: 101
post #36 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 5,074
Joined: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Is the GE wire 100% copper or...?

Not sure I just bought it cause it was cheap biggrin.gif
wasteofmoney's Avatar wasteofmoney
07:50 PM Liked: 10
post #37 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 99
Joined: May 2012
Actually I bought some 12AWG monoprice speaker wire and installed 5 lengths behind some walls. One of them had an open wire. It was more of a no copper problem, than a bad copper problem. Manufacturing defect I guess. If you buy this stuff dont forget to test for continuity and resistance before installing. I just buy the Belden stuff now.
flyng_fool's Avatar flyng_fool
08:03 PM Liked: 158
post #38 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 3,860
Joined: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Quote:
I bought some there and it was green within a few months. It oxidized really badly.
Didn't take any science classes eh?
Copper, regardless of its origin, will react with other elements in the environment. Believe it or not, this surface corrosion doesn't have any effect on the transmission of current.
Not knowing the difference between an oxide, sulphate or chloride, doesn't instill much confidence in your determination.
It's still oxidation genius. Oxidation is a reaction with oxygen.

http://www.corrosionist.com/why_does_copper_turn_green.htm
Geoff4RFC's Avatar Geoff4RFC
11:04 PM Liked: 1368
post #39 of 59
06-26-2012 | Posts: 3,712
Joined: May 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

It's still oxidation genius. Oxidation is a reaction with oxygen.
http://www.corrosionist.com/why_does_copper_turn_green.htm

Now that cracked me up! I needed that smile.gif
chikoo's Avatar chikoo
06:55 AM Liked: 11
post #40 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 1,067
Joined: Dec 2011
Found somewhere on the web so it must be true biggrin.gif

"Initially, bare Cu metal atoms react with air to form the pink oxide, cuprite, Cu2O, which has Cu+1 cations. This gradually oxidizes further to the black oxide, tenorite, CuO, with Cu+2 ions. The black sulfide CuS also sometimes forms. In the presence of moisture, the blackish layer slowly reacts with sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide from the air to eventually form the patina"
Chu Gai's Avatar Chu Gai
07:07 AM Liked: 631
post #41 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 15,058
Joined: Sep 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

It's still oxidation genius. Oxidation is a reaction with oxygen.
http://www.corrosionist.com/why_does_copper_turn_green.htm
Technically, oxidation involves the loss of electrons and doesn't necessarily require oxygen.

In the case of the green coloration, it's a reaction between the copper and the sheathing material which is typically PVC. It's caused because over time and exposure to environmental variables such as temperature, the PVC degrades to form hydrogen chloride as one of the decomposition by-products. The reaction product, copper chloride, is green. Depending upon how the PVC is stabilized, the wire may never turn green or it may happen rapidly.
SAM64's Avatar SAM64
08:01 AM Liked: 74
post #42 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 1,592
Joined: Apr 2011
Quote:
It's still oxidation genius. Oxidation is a reaction with oxygen.

LOL.
Copper forms a brownish red and a black oxide.
Sulphates are blue and chlorides are green.

Why don't you take an "introduction to science" class before embarrassing yourself again, genius.
SAM64's Avatar SAM64
08:02 AM Liked: 74
post #43 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 1,592
Joined: Apr 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

Now that cracked me up! I needed that smile.gif

Cracked me up too.... try to understand what your linking to...you just proved me right, while making yourself look pretty stupid.
flyng_fool's Avatar flyng_fool
09:23 AM Liked: 158
post #44 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 3,860
Joined: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Cracked me up too.... try to understand what your linking to...you just proved me right, while making yourself look pretty stupid.
The Process still starts with a reaction to oxygen and several steps it turns green, but you still need oxygen to start it off. Chu Gai, oxidation is both, a reaction with oxygen or the removal of electrons.

I'm so glad you are a chemistry guru Sam, perhaps you had better go back to basic chemistry class. I've had chemistry all the way through bio and pchem, I think I have a handle on the basics.

http://www.tech-faq.com/what-causes-copper-to-turn-green.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/oxidation
Ratman's Avatar Ratman
09:44 AM Liked: 333
post #45 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 14,797
Joined: May 2002
Playing the devil's advocate:
If you have 25' of speaker wire that green in the middle, how does oxygen creep into the jacket?
Most probable is that the clear insulation (typically PVC) is the culprit that is reacting (chlorides) with the copper
Chu Gai's Avatar Chu Gai
09:47 AM Liked: 631
post #46 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 15,058
Joined: Sep 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

The Process still starts with a reaction to oxygen and several steps it turns green, but you still need oxygen to start it off. Chu Gai, oxidation is both, a reaction with oxygen or the removal of electrons.
I'm so glad you are a chemistry guru Sam, perhaps you had better go back to basic chemistry class. I've had chemistry all the way through bio and pchem, I think I have a handle on the basics.
http://www.tech-faq.com/what-causes-copper-to-turn-green.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/oxidation
I had PChem too as well Quantum, and several graduate level courses. About 10 years ago I had some green wire run through an XRF which besides copper detected significant levels of Chlorine. There was only one source of that which was the PVC insulation. I'm not going to postulate the mechanism for the formation of copper chlorides but that was what was ultimately formed. It's pretty much a surface phenomena that only goes down a few microns. If one wants to avoid it, use wire with a different insulation. Liberty I think makes some with PE. I am though of the opinion that HD stuff is driven by low cost. FWIW, I have some SoundKing wire that's not green.
SAM64's Avatar SAM64
11:42 AM Liked: 74
post #47 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 1,592
Joined: Apr 2011
Quote:
I'm so glad you are a chemistry guru Sam,

Thanks, stick around, maybe you'll learn something wink.gif
Elihawk's Avatar Elihawk
11:49 AM Liked: 254
post #48 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 2,782
Joined: Jan 2011
Okay, ignoring the chemistry for a minute (and yes, inorganic, organic chem, Biochem and three semester of teaching inorganic, but not wanting to turn AVS into a chemsitry forum)...

Has ANYONE ever shown a single measurement showing that expensive, non defective speaker wires has better "signal" than inexpensive, non defective speaker wire? I have seen claims by Monster and others, but I have never seen a single experiment that would support those claims
Ratman's Avatar Ratman
12:00 PM Liked: 333
post #49 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 14,797
Joined: May 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Okay, ignoring the chemistry for a minute (and yes, inorganic, organic chem, Biochem and three semester of teaching inorganic, but not wanting to turn AVS into a chemsitry forum)...
Has ANYONE ever shown a single measurement showing that expensive, non defective speaker wires has better "signal" than inexpensive, non defective speaker wire? I have seen claims by Monster and others, but I have never seen a single experiment that would support those claims

No.... that's how they sell expensive speaker wires. There's nothing Mon$ter or others want (or can) prove. That's all they are.... "claims". The rest is up to the consumer's pocketbook.
flyng_fool's Avatar flyng_fool
01:31 PM Liked: 158
post #50 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 3,860
Joined: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Okay, ignoring the chemistry for a minute (and yes, inorganic, organic chem, Biochem and three semester of teaching inorganic, but not wanting to turn AVS into a chemsitry forum)...
Has ANYONE ever shown a single measurement showing that expensive, non defective speaker wires has better "signal" than inexpensive, non defective speaker wire? I have seen claims by Monster and others, but I have never seen a single experiment that would support those claims
Yes, the wire will measure better, but the improvements are well outside of the audible range. So it's basically bogus.
flyng_fool's Avatar flyng_fool
01:35 PM Liked: 158
post #51 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 3,860
Joined: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I had PChem too as well Quantum, and several graduate level courses. About 10 years ago I had some green wire run through an XRF which besides copper detected significant levels of Chlorine. There was only one source of that which was the PVC insulation. I'm not going to postulate the mechanism for the formation of copper chlorides but that was what was ultimately formed. It's pretty much a surface phenomena that only goes down a few microns. If one wants to avoid it, use wire with a different insulation. Liberty I think makes some with PE. I am though of the opinion that HD stuff is driven by low cost. FWIW, I have some SoundKing wire that's not green.
Yes that's true chlorine will do it. I was referring to the natural green patina process. And yes, I know it will not make any difference in sound. But wire isn't supposed to turn green inside it's jacket. I prefer the products I purchase to be without any glaring defects.
Hamilcar Barca's Avatar Hamilcar Barca
02:06 PM Liked: 21
post #52 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 662
Joined: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Has ANYONE ever shown a single measurement showing that expensive, non defective
speaker wires has better "signal" than inexpensive, non defective speaker wire?

With sufficiently sensitive instrumentation, cables can be "fingerprinted." Some will pass
a better reproduction of their input than others. This is easily verified.

However, who cares? We don't need "perfect" cables to get the best sound that can
possibly be produced by our systems; we need cables which are "good enough."
I don't need a speedometer in my car which is accurate to 0.01 MPH. Does an
expensive cable sound better than my cheap one? Does my cheap one sound
better? Is it possible that nobody can tell the difference in an actual test?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

I have seen claims by Monster and others, but I have never seen a single
experiment that would support those claims

Advertising and marketing claims by manufacturers, at least those made in the
U.S., are valueless and have no meaning. Does it sound better to you or me?
Nothing else matters. Except I like a good-looking cable better.
psgcdn's Avatar psgcdn
02:34 PM Liked: 259
post #53 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 4,698
Joined: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Quote:
I bought some there and it was green within a few months. It oxidized really badly.
Didn't take any science classes eh?
Copper, regardless of its origin, will react with other elements in the environment. Believe it or not, this surface corrosion doesn't have any effect on the transmission of current.
Not knowing the difference between an oxide, sulphate or chloride, doesn't instill much confidence in your determination.

I was going to stay out of this... Sam, you may know your chemistry but you don't have to be condescending at every turn.

As for Didn't take any science classes eh?, that is actually a logic mistake. Chemistry is a science but not all science is chemistry; I may be a scientist and still know nothing of chemistry.
Ratman's Avatar Ratman
02:40 PM Liked: 333
post #54 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 14,797
Joined: May 2002
Measure all you like, a 25' 14AWG lamp cord @ $.50 per foot will sound no different than 25' of a 14AWG "boutique" speaker wire @ $20 per foot.
If one desires to spend money unnecessarily to have speaker wire that looks goods, that a personal preference.

It's like I don't like seeing a pine tree shaped air freshener hanging from my car mirror. I prefer a "clip on" that attaches on the dash. tongue.gif
Hamilcar Barca's Avatar Hamilcar Barca
03:09 PM Liked: 21
post #55 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 662
Joined: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Measure all you like

I don't measure nothing. I haven't measured anything since I took EE 201 in Spring,
1978. The differences are areal and may be important to EE's and physicists. The
real difference for me is ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

a 25' 14AWG lamp cord @ $.50 per foot will sound no different than 25' of a 14AWG
"boutique" speaker wire @ $20 per foot.

I like Monoprice's zip cord, myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

If one desires to spend money unnecessarily to have speaker wire that looks goods,
that a personal preference.

That's why I invest in TechFlex covering and little rubber cable pants. It looks
better, ergo it sounds better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

It's like I don't like seeing a pine tree shaped air freshener hanging from my car mirror.
I prefer a "clip on" that attaches on the dash. tongue.gif

How gauche!
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar Bill Fitzmaurice
03:14 PM Liked: 1771
post #56 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 10,509
Joined: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilcar Barca View Post

Some will pass a better reproduction of their input than others.
Not within the audio bandwidth. That's the stuff which is in such fine print that even a gnat can't read it.
Quote:
The differences are areal and may be important to EE's and physicists.
We're the ones who know enough not to fall for the cable mountebank's nonsense. It's those who lack an understanding of how speaker cables work, and all cables for that matter, who fall for their shenanigans.
Ratman's Avatar Ratman
04:09 PM Liked: 333
post #57 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 14,797
Joined: May 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilcar Barca View Post

That's why I invest in TechFlex covering and little rubber cable pants. It looks better, ergo it sounds better.
Great investment I guess.... but, if it looks better, that doesn't equate to sounding better. FWIW, over 35 years, I have never had anyone ask to look at my speaker wires. They take more interest what's in my fridge. wink.gif
Hamilcar Barca's Avatar Hamilcar Barca
04:54 PM Liked: 21
post #58 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 662
Joined: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Great investment I guess.... but, if it looks better, that doesn't
equate to sounding better.

That was my bad attempt at parodying the "if it costs more it must be
better" myth. Sorry.
Ratman's Avatar Ratman
05:41 PM Liked: 333
post #59 of 59
06-27-2012 | Posts: 14,797
Joined: May 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilcar Barca View Post

Advertising and marketing claims by manufacturers, at least those made in the
U.S., are valueless and have no meaning. Does it sound better to you or me?
Nothing else matters. Except I like a good-looking cable better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilcar Barca View Post

That was my bad attempt at parodying the "if it costs more it must be
better" myth. Sorry.

Just going by another post also.... sorry, didn't know how to interpret your parody.
(You better work on that. wink.gif )

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