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post #4501 of 4690 Old 03-07-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Imagine if they implemented rules that all products had to have 3rd party documented evidence that they actually worked, and hired enough inspectors to assure 100% compliance. The size of that workforce would put an end to unemployment. wink.gif And 90% of the cable industry. tongue.gif

.....and all products would be 50% more expensive. frown.gif

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post #4502 of 4690 Old 03-07-2014, 10:18 AM
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.....and all products would be 50% more expensive. frown.gif
I'd rather pay twice as much for stuff that actually works than a hundred times as much for stuff that doesn't. wink.gif
'Truth in advertising' shouldn't be an oxymoron.
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post #4503 of 4690 Old 03-07-2014, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I'd rather pay twice as much for stuff that actually works than a hundred times as much for stuff that doesn't. wink.gif
'Truth in advertising' shouldn't be an oxymoron.

Actually, the FTC already requires that advertisers have substantiation for their claims. If we challenge an ad, we don't have to prove it's false--the seller has to show that it has a reasonable level of support for the claim. The FTC hasn't gone after high end audio claims for policy planning reasons--the science is very complex, there probably won't be any agreement on what a reasonable level of support is, the Commission doesn't have in-house expertise, and the average income level of the typical consumer in this market is a lot higher than the folks who the FTC does try to help protect. I personally think that's the right call--the audio market is a jungle, but it's extremely competitive and dynamic, and could easily be messed up with rigid regulations. I enforced the only regulation we have in the area--the amplifier power rating rule. But even that got to be a real can of worms with the advent of multi-channel HT amps.
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post #4504 of 4690 Old 03-07-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I'd rather pay twice as much for stuff that actually works than a hundred times as much for stuff that doesn't. wink.gif
'Truth in advertising' shouldn't be an oxymoron.

I agree, but reality says one must do one's research. I think Dennis might admit that for all his and his cohorts' work, they were spittin' into a gale. The oxymoron has ever been true.

"Pssst...hey, buddy. I'll trade you this chicken who lays thrice a day for yon ox cart of yours." wink.gif

Caveat emptor is a very old concept and adjunct to common law.

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post #4505 of 4690 Old 03-07-2014, 02:20 PM
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Now that I've derailed the thread enough with my ignorance - back to the wonderful speakers.  In reading the thread (now up to 135), I get how people build in excitement as the time between paying your money and getting them in hand.  Has anyone ordered a Phil 3 in the standard walnut before?  If so, I'd like a sneak peak lol.

 

It looks like the placement on my front soundstage will be pretty good.  Distance to the prime listening location is right at 13' and the wall they will go on is about 14' across.  There's an additional 36" for a hallway at with side of that wall before you get to the side walls.  Only problem might be closeness from the back wall but that doesn't seem to matter as much (or so I think I've read).  They won't do me much good if I can't get my wheel chair into the listening area though.

 

One question, I think I've read here and elsewhere that speaker spikes etc aren't necessary.  I've got vinyl plank floors and eventually we'll get a rug for the listening area.  Am I on the right track?

 

(putting another question on the subwoofer thread I started)

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post #4506 of 4690 Old 03-07-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

Now that I've derailed the thread enough with my ignorance - back to the wonderful speakers.  In reading the thread (now up to 135), I get how people build in excitement as the time between paying your money and getting them in hand.  Has anyone ordered a Phil 3 in the standard walnut before?  If so, I'd like a sneak peak lol.

It looks like the placement on my front soundstage will be pretty good.  Distance to the prime listening location is right at 13' and the wall they will go on is about 14' across.  There's an additional 36" for a hallway at with side of that wall before you get to the side walls.  Only problem might be closeness from the back wall but that doesn't seem to matter as much (or so I think I've read).  They won't do me much good if I can't get my wheel chair into the listening area though.

One question, I think I've read here and elsewhere that speaker spikes etc aren't necessary.  I've got vinyl plank floors and eventually we'll get a rug for the listening area.  Am I on the right track?

(putting another question on the subwoofer thread I started)

Have you looked at the gallery on the website? I can't remember if there's a Walnut on there, but a lot of good ideas for different veneer. You may also want to check out the Salk website, I think they have some nice Walnut veneered speakers somewhere in there.
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post #4507 of 4690 Old 03-09-2014, 05:53 PM
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My system except for the Phil's is going in this week (Wednesday probably),  I've read things hear and there through the thread but didn't register totally what I need to do.  I'm getting a Denon 4520CI (thus Audessy XT32 and Audessy bass management).

 

Is there anything I should do either now or when I get the Phils?

 

Bonus question:

Getting a Salk/Rythmik 12" sub and from what I've read and the responses I've gotten it looks like it should be crossed over between 40 and 60Hz.  Correct?

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post #4508 of 4690 Old 03-09-2014, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

My system except for the Phil's is going in this week (Wednesday probably),  I've read things hear and there through the thread but didn't register totally what I need to do.  I'm getting a Denon 4520CI (thus Audessy XT32 and Audessy bass management).

Is there anything I should do either now or when I get the Phils?

Bonus question:
Getting a Salk/Rythmik 12" sub and from what I've read and the responses I've gotten it looks like it should be crossed over between 40 and 60Hz.  Correct?

Get a measuring microphone and learn how to use REW. If not, you can spend a little more on Omnimic system which I heard is easier to use. This will help with sub placement. Without it you are shooting in the dark. If you choose not to use measuring equipment, perform the sub crawl. Place the sub in your seat (putting it at ear level is a bonus) and play content with bass in it. Crawl (yes on your hands and knees) around the room and listen to the bass response of the sub. Wherever the bass sounds best is where you want to place your sub.

Start off crossing over at 80Hz. Just because the Phils can dig deep there is no reason to make them do so if you have a sub that will do a better job at it. Rare is the setup that speaker placement for best imaging also is the best place for bass response. I would say cross over at the highest frequency possible that does not make the bass localized. For most people that would be 80Hz or so.
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post #4509 of 4690 Old 03-09-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

My system except for the Phil's is going in this week (Wednesday probably),  I've read things hear and there through the thread but didn't register totally what I need to do.  I'm getting a Denon 4520CI (thus Audessy XT32 and Audessy bass management).

Is there anything I should do either now or when I get the Phils?

Bonus question:
Getting a Salk/Rythmik 12" sub and from what I've read and the responses I've gotten it looks like it should be crossed over between 40 and 60Hz.  Correct?

Don't be afraid to experiment with placement and degrees of toe in with the Phils. Also, definitely experiment with level of fill in the upper cabinet. It will mostly depend on how far from the front wall they are placed. You can cross where sounds best to you. If you're going to running movie content through them, I'd probably stick to 80hz, for music and two channel listening I usually either run the Phils full range (direct) or If I'm watching something multi-channel (concert on BD) I'll go with a crossover of 40hz. This is just what works best in my room, you'll have to experiment and see what works best for you.

Make sure you do all your experiments before running Audyssey. After you run Audyssey go back in and make sure all speakers are set to small and then you can mess with the crossovers, but don't touch the distances. If the distances are off from actual (they should be), it's just Audyssey time aligning everything.
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post #4510 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

My system except for the Phil's is going in this week (Wednesday probably),  I've read things hear and there through the thread but didn't register totally what I need to do.  I'm getting a Denon 4520CI (thus Audessy XT32 and Audessy bass management).

Is there anything I should do either now or when I get the Phils?

Bonus question:
Getting a Salk/Rythmik 12" sub and from what I've read and the responses I've gotten it looks like it should be crossed over between 40 and 60Hz.  Correct?

How large is your room? I seriously doubt that a single 12" Salk/Rythmyk is going to fill your room very effectively. I would go for duel 15's, or some DIY 18" subs. You could likely build a pair of DIY 18" subwoofers for less than that single 12" Salk/Rythmik!

If you don't feel comfortable building your own subwoofer, I know a guy who will do a turn key pair of DIY subs for a modest fee. If you want his contact info, PM me!
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post #4511 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

Bonus question:
Getting a Salk/Rythmik 12" sub and from what I've read and the responses I've gotten it looks like it should be crossed over between 40 and 60Hz.  Correct?

If you do get it, post pics/opinions. I am very interested to see more about their subs.
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post #4512 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 08:07 AM
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How large is your room? I seriously doubt that a single 12" Salk/Rythmyk is going to fill your room very effectively. I would go for duel 15's, or some DIY 18" subs. You could likely build a pair of DIY 18" subwoofers for less than that single 12" Salk/Rythmik!

If you don't feel comfortable building your own subwoofer, I know a guy who will do a turn key pair of DIY subs for a modest fee. If you want his contact info, PM me!

Based on what I've heard from Jim and others, I think a single Rythmyk will do very nicely, unless we're talking National Cathedral-type room dimensions. You should be more concerned with quality than pure dB output from a sub, and the Rythmyk is extremely accurate.
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post #4513 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 09:00 AM
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The room is 19'X22' with 10' ceilings.  With the open concept kitchen behind it goes up to about 6,400 cu. feet.  When I talked with Jim Salk, he seemed pretty confident in the 12".  He knows a heck of a lot more about them than I so I guess I'm just thinking MORE! like a typical guy - lol.

 

ETA: The sub should match the Phil 3's so I'll definitely post a pic together.

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post #4514 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 09:47 AM
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6400ft^3 is pretty huge for a 12" sub to try and pressurize. It might be ok for music if you have the sub close to the MLP and you're not listening to house/trance/electronica. If you find that the single 12" sub isn't enough and upgrading or adding additional subs are not an option, you might want to consider placing the sub on the opposite wall of the Phils and run the Phils large with the receiver set to double bass. That might help with bass and nulls. Just keep an eye on the Phils as they don't have any HPF that I know of and may be damaged at high volumes.
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post #4515 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 09:50 AM
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Well, you can always order another one later if there isn't enough boom for the room.
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post #4516 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 09:55 AM
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Well, you can always order another one later if there isn't enough boom for the room.

That's kind of what I was thinking.  I want accurate bass more than pure output.  I've already asked the installer to add a second wire for a second sub.

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post #4517 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

That's kind of what I was thinking.  I want accurate bass more than pure output.  I've already asked the installer to add a second wire for a second sub.

A multi-sub setup is gong to get you the best bass over a single, especially in that large of a space. The biggest factor will be what levels you're trying to drive this setup to.
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post #4518 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

That's kind of what I was thinking.  I want accurate bass more than pure output.  I've already asked the installer to add a second wire for a second sub.

Sounds like you're getting ahead of yourself unless where you're running the wires is the only place you can put the sub. If placement is flexible, you should perform a sub crawl to see where the best placement is. Borrow a sub if need be. You don't want to spend money prewiring for the sub only to find out it's in a very bad location for smooth frequency response.
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post #4519 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 11:41 AM
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Hadn't thought of that Duc135.  The placement is somewhat limited but there is some wiggle room.  I have decided my plan is to go with 2 x the Salk/Rythmik 12's eventually.  (It's hard since the budget is blown to not go ahead but I'm being good).  My thinking (without hearing or measuring) is to go with 'stereo' subs just inboard of the Phils.

 

ETA: I can post pictures of the room sometime if that would help y'all help me.  When I talked to Jim Salk again, he said that one of the reasons to go with the 15" over the twelve was realistic reproductions of explosions but I've been there, done that, have the brain damage to prove it so I'm not wanting to have it in my living room so much.

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post #4520 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

Hadn't thought of that Duc135.  The placement is somewhat limited but there is some wiggle room.  I have decided my plan is to go with 2 x the Salk/Rythmik 12's eventually.  (It's hard since the budget is blown to not go ahead but I'm being good).  My thinking (without hearing or measuring) is to go with 'stereo' subs just inboard of the Phils.

Maybe someone near you is willing to bring a sub or two over with measuring equipment to help with determining best placement options for you. If you're within 50 miles of downtown Los Angeles I'm willing to give it a go. I have a pair of 10" subs (similar to the JLAudio Fathom 110) that have close to the output of the 12" Rythmiks.

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When I talked to Jim Salk again, he said that one of the reasons to go with the 15" over the twelve was realistic reproductions of explosions but I've been there, done that, have the brain damage to prove it so I'm not wanting to have it in my living room so much.

That's not the only reason to go with a 15" sub. A 15" sub will play deeper than a 12" will. All things being the same, a 15" sub will sound cleaner at the same SPL than a 12" will since it will have to move less. Cone movement is where most of the distortion comes from. Less cone movement means less distortion. This will be more evident at higher SPLs. So if your 12" Rythmik has to be turned up to it's limits (which is very possible in that size room) then distortions level may be high enough to be audible. Remember, you can always turn down the gain knob on a more powerful sub, but you can only turn it up so much on a lesser sub.

Of course this is all a matter of how much bass is enough which is very subjective. I'm guessing my definition is probably nowhere near what most people think is enough. I have two 18" subs, two 15" subs and two 10" subs. I will be adding another four 15" subs and repurposing the 10" subs as MBM to complement my speakers. All this in a sealed 2300ft^3 room. For me, it's not all about SPL, but SQ and even frequency response. Of course the SPL is definitely there when I need it though. biggrin.gif
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post #4521 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 12:08 PM
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Not near LA.  I'm in the Panhandle of Texas in Lubbock.

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Here's the graph Dennis sent for my Philharmonicenter:

 

 

So can you not link photos from photo bucket? - Gracias DrewTT

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post #4523 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

Here's the graph Dennis sent for my Philharmonicenter:
 
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd316/cadfael_tex/SNAG-052_zpsdba81610.png

So can you not link photos from photo bucket?

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post #4524 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 06:16 PM
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Just a word of explanation. This is a single Philharmonitor--not an MTM or WMTW dedicated center. Tony was able to use a single monitor standing upright, and that seemed like the most cost-effective way to go.
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post #4525 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 06:56 PM
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Dennis,

Have you heard the Overnight Sensations? Any thoughts on how they might compare to your tweaked affordable accuracy monitors? Quite the price you've listed them for!

I've got a sister who's ready for a minor upgrade...
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post #4526 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 06:56 PM
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I've gotten a little spoiled by the response graphs you send out Dennis. Do you know if Jim does them too? I ordered one of your WMTW centers a few months ago that are being built along with a 15" sub from him.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #4527 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by a|F View Post

Dennis,

Have you heard the Overnight Sensations? Any thoughts on how they might compare to your tweaked affordable accuracy monitors? Quite the price you've listed them for!

I've got a sister who's ready for a minor upgrade...

HI. Sorry--haven't heard them. But you have to build them, right? I'm assuming they aren't available for drop shipping in assembled form. If I'm right, it may come down to how you value your own time.
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post #4528 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I've gotten a little spoiled by the response graphs you send out Dennis. Do you know if Jim does them too? I ordered one of your WMTW centers a few months ago that are being built along with a 15" sub from him.


Hi. Good to hear from you. Jim has exactly the same measuring system as I do, and we regularly exchange plots. I'm sure he'll send you measurements if you ask.
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post #4529 of 4690 Old 03-10-2014, 07:31 PM
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Thanks for clearing that up Dennis.  It seemed like an excellent way to go to get a center timber matched after Dennis afforded me that option (pun accidental but accepted).  I went with not rotated because I thought a monitor with its original format would make less complications.  Dennis has a matching one if anyone is interested ;)

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post #4530 of 4690 Old 03-11-2014, 05:28 AM
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So I have been drooling over the Phil-3's for quite sometime now, just haven't been able to afford any new speaker upgrades due to loosing my job, having to support two households, having two car payments, a mortgage & a rental ( for my wife who is away in school), student loans, ect....

The good news is that my wife graduates in May, and I just unexpectedly inherited a home! Now if I can sell me existing house, that I have been in the process of remodeling, I am in a position to where once the house is sold, I might be able to actually afford these Phil-3's!
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