Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 168 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5011 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanMarcus View Post
Don't confuse a "folded ribbon" tweeter with a "ribbon tweeter". The folder ribbon is an Air Motion Transformer and is quite different from the RAAL ribbon tweeter.
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
Right--the AMT driver has more in common with planar drivers than with ribbons. Although the mass of the element is lower than that of conventional domes, it's greater than the element of a true ribbon. I've worked with several versions of the AMT, and by far the best was the original large beast found on the classic Heil AMT speakers from the 70's. I've tried a number of the smaller and much less expensive versions on the market currently, and they have't measured very well, and lacked the openness of a true ribbon. I haven't worked with all of them, however, and don't now which model is used in the Golden Ear series.
Thanks for the clarification, guys. I'm pretty ignorant to the differences in both the tweeters you mention, Allan, and am also ignorant about which I listened to in the Goldenears and a couple different Martin Logan offerings. All I know is I enjoyed the Goldenears and was then pointed here to consider Philharmonics as an alternative.

To help me out here...how are the Philharmonics different than the Goldenears in regard to the tweeter? Are there any signature audio differences that will be obvious? This is also all contingent on the tweeter being what I liked. I'm fairly confident that's the case.

Wish I could audition more speakers locally. Hard to find ribbon tweeters of any flavor here other than the mass-marketed MLs. I'm lucky there's a Goldenear dealer in town and I even got to hear those!
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post #5012 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 08:37 AM
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The BMRs play nicely with the $100 crown X1000 I have. They do see improvements with better amplification with the 60wpc Schiit Ragnarok besting my old parasound A21.

I HAVE found my DAC makes a big difference. I tried about a dozen before landing on the Schiit Yggdrasil. The bass slam and imaging are ridiculous with this combo. I can't wait until the Yggdrasil tech trickles down into the Bifrost and Gungnir lines.
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post #5013 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eephusman View Post
Thanks for the clarification, guys. I'm pretty ignorant to the differences in both the tweeters you mention, Allan, and am also ignorant about which I listened to in the Goldenears and a couple different Martin Logan offerings. All I know is I enjoyed the Goldenears and was then pointed here to consider Philharmonics as an alternative.

To help me out here...how are the Philharmonics different than the Goldenears in regard to the tweeter? Are there any signature audio differences that will be obvious? This is also all contingent on the tweeter being what I liked. I'm fairly confident that's the case.

Wish I could audition more speakers locally. Hard to find ribbon tweeters of any flavor here other than the mass-marketed MLs. I'm lucky there's a Goldenear dealer in town and I even got to hear those!
Since you don't have a location in your profile, we don't know where "here" is for you. The ML and the GoldenEar use AMT type ribbons. Monitor Audio gold and platinum lines use similar, but different brand, ribbon tweeters as the phils. If you can hear the MA's you might get a feel. I'm not sure there are many other mass marketed speakers that use a ribbon tweeter. The XTZ 99.25 mk II probably sounds similar to the phils soley based on reading about them; I have not heard either. XTZ offers free shipping both ways for a home trial, but the speaker are significantly more expensive (imagine that).

I have ML LS216s, with have their AMT tweeter, and it does produce a very crisp high. If you are a treble head, the AMT can be very pleasing. I'm awaiting RMAF in October to get an opportunity to listen to some ribbon tweeters. I have heard the MA gold 200 floor slanders ($3500/pr) and I was impressed with the clarity and detail. I'm holding out hope the Phil BMRs sound similar :-).
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post #5014 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 09:00 AM
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Since you don't have a location in your profile, we don't know where "here" is for you. The ML and the GoldenEar use AMT type ribbons. Monitor Audio gold and platinum lines use similar, but different brand, ribbon tweeters as the phils. If you can hear the MA's you might get a feel. I'm not sure there are many other mass marketed speakers that use a ribbon tweeter. The XTZ 99.25 mk II probably sounds similar to the phils soley based on reading about them; I have not heard either. XTZ offers free shipping both ways for a home trial, but the speaker are significantly more expensive (imagine that).

I have ML LS216s, with have their AMT tweeter, and it does produce a very crisp high. If you are a treble head, the AMT can be very pleasing. I'm awaiting RMAF in October to get an opportunity to listen to some ribbon tweeters. I have heard the MA gold 200 floor slanders ($3500/pr) and I was impressed with the clarity and detail. I'm holding out hope the Phil BMRs sound similar :-).
Ah. I've updated my profile (although I did mention my location in my earlier post ). Thank you, Allan. I will seek out a place locally to audition some Monitor Audio product. There is a shop right down the street from my house that is listed on the MA dealer finder. Hopefully they'll have some in stock with the ribbons.

And that's a good question...if I'm a treble head. Maybe I am! All I know is that the Triton 7s were very interesting to me because the music seemed to be there with me instead of coming at me or being too far forward. Of course, completely subjective. The only thing I wonder is how much novelty (for me, not a dig at Goldenear) plays a factor in my WOW factor on the GEs. I don't *think* that the sound would wear on me for long-term use, but I'm not entirely sure. And that's not something I'll know till I own them.
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post #5015 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 09:14 AM
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Ah. I've updated my profile (although I did mention my location in my earlier post ). Thank you, Allan. I will seek out a place locally to audition some Monitor Audio product. There is a shop right down the street from my house that is listed on the MA dealer finder. Hopefully they'll have some in stock with the ribbons.

And that's a good question...if I'm a treble head. Maybe I am! All I know is that the Triton 7s were very interesting to me because the music seemed to be there with me instead of coming at me or being too far forward. Of course, completely subjective. The only thing I wonder is how much novelty (for me, not a dig at Goldenear) plays a factor in my WOW factor on the GEs. I don't *think* that the sound would wear on me for long-term use, but I'm not entirely sure. And that's not something I'll know till I own them.
My son and I (he is a 23 year old audiophile) auditioned many speakers a few weekends ago. Focal, GoldenEar, paradigm, monitor Audio, magnapan. They were mostly in the 1500-2000/pr price range. We liked the triton 7s best in that range. Unfortunately for me, I think I really need standmounts, not floor slanders, or at least not speakers with grills that go to the bottom (I have small dogs). The BMRs are high on my list, as are the MA gx gold 100s and the revel m105 or M106s. I've heard the M106s, and they are very good and cab by had for ~2000/pr with stands. I'll probably try XTZ and SVS given their return policies and stellar reviews. SVS was at RMAF last year, so hopefully they will be again. I just hate having to wait until October :-)
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post #5016 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AllanMarcus View Post
My son and I (he is a 23 year old audiophile) auditioned many speakers a few weekends ago. Focal, GoldenEar, paradigm, monitor Audio, magnapan. They were mostly in the 1500-2000/pr price range. We liked the triton 7s best in that range. Unfortunately for me, I think I really need standmounts, not floor slanders, or at least not speakers with grills that go to the bottom (I have small dogs). The BMRs are high on my list, as are the MA gx gold 100s and the revel m105 or M106s. I've heard the M106s, and they are very good and cab by had for ~2000/pr with stands. I'll probably try XTZ and SVS given their return policies and stellar reviews. SVS was at RMAF last year, so hopefully they will be again. I just hate having to wait until October :-)
Hehe. I hear what you're saying! I auditioned the 7s back in January and knew I wouldn't have the money until around now. I have it, but continue to troll the used market locally and do a bit more research before I take the plunge. There are a pair of M105s here used right now, but the owner apparently wants a full reimbursement for his new purchase price, so...nope.

These BMRs are very appealing to me as well based on all my reading, although I have the opposite problem of yours. That is, I have small kids and no small animals. Well, they're small animals, too, but they're more prone to knock over bookshelves, IME (been there with some old NHTs), as opposed to knawing/clawing at a floor stander (although anything is possible with the boy).

I either need to sack up and pay more for the Slim (or some $2K equivalent), or just shut up and get the 7s.

I haven't auditioned the Triton Fives yet, either. I should be saving for a new dining room table (I have a "formal" dining room now - what a dumb idea), but I'll use that about once a month, or less, to have friends over. My speakers will get used 5-7 time per week.
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post #5017 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 09:36 AM
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Thanks for the clarification, guys. I'm pretty ignorant to the differences in both the tweeters you mention, Allan, and am also ignorant about which I listened to in the Goldenears and a couple different Martin Logan offerings. All I know is I enjoyed the Goldenears and was then pointed here to consider Philharmonics as an alternative.

To help me out here...how are the Philharmonics different than the Goldenears in regard to the tweeter? Are there any signature audio differences that will be obvious? This is also all contingent on the tweeter being what I liked. I'm fairly confident that's the case.

Wish I could audition more speakers locally. Hard to find ribbon tweeters of any flavor here other than the mass-marketed MLs. I'm lucky there's a Goldenear dealer in town and I even got to hear those!
A true ribbon has no voice coil anywhere--it's a piece of tin foil suspended in a super-strong magnetic field. The AMT is more of a planar driver--there is a voice coil of sorts etched onto the mylar element, and that element is pleated. In response to the pulsating magnetic field, the element squeezes in and out like an accordion, and shoots the air out between the pleats. It's a very interesting design, although it apparently isn't easy to achieve very flat response.
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post #5018 of 5034 Unread 07-12-2015, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
A true ribbon has no voice coil anywhere--it's a piece of tin foil suspended in a super-strong magnetic field. The AMT is more of a planar driver--there is a voice coil of sorts etched onto the mylar element, that element is pleated. In response to the pulsating magnetic field, the element squeezes in and out like an accordion, and shoots the air out between the pleats. It's a very interesting design, although it apparently isn't easy to achieve very flat response.
Thank you, Dennis. Had to read that about four times to (probably) understand it, but I think I do, basically. It's possible that the sound I'm hearing out of the GE product isn't flat at all, which means I like colored audio, in this case. Not sure.

My professional equivalent would be, I guess, buying a set of tires that don't grip properly at all, but make for a *very* fun ride/drive.
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Allen Marcus.

Lurking seems to be my MO.
A couple of things, currently have the EMP 5's, XTZ 95.24(ribbon tweeter), and some panels, Maggie 1.6 and Accoustats. Have had some KEF 103.2 and 103.3, EV's, Klipsch horns, some ADS, some DIY and so on.
As i get older, I can taste the differences in more expensive wine a lot better than I can hear the differences in more expensive speakers.
I demo'd Golden Ears 7's and 2's and almost pulled the trigger on the 7's.
I was hoping to pick up some Philharmonitors but no luck at this time. I am not sure the BMR's would work for me. The Maggies and Accoustats cover 2 channel.
The EMP's and XTZ's cover HT. I prefer the XTZ's over the EMP's. Better mid's and treble, musical is over used but they are very good-very solidly built, darned heavy.
Just wanted to chime in on XTZ because there is such a small install base. They treated me very well.
The 99.25 or 99.26 might fit your needs but you need to hear them.
Heck, Mr. Murphy truly is a custom builder and would be a great person to deal with.
Do in-home demos, Ascend, Phil's whatever strikes your fancy.

Yes, shipping is a pain but so is not getting something to match your ears and room. Good luck.
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post #5020 of 5034 Unread 07-13-2015, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
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A true ribbon has no voice coil anywhere--it's a piece of tin foil suspended in a super-strong magnetic field. The AMT is more of a planar driver--there is a voice coil of sorts etched onto the mylar element, and that element is pleated. In response to the pulsating magnetic field, the element squeezes in and out like an accordion, and shoots the air out between the pleats. It's a very interesting design, although it apparently isn't easy to achieve very flat response.
This one is pretty flat: http://www.beyma.com/products/diapha...eters/1TPL15H8

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post #5021 of 5034 Unread 07-13-2015, 09:20 PM
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I can't tell much about it. I searched the site for a discussion of the construction of the driver, but I couldn't find anything. The diaphragm is "pleated," but I can't tell whether it's a true AMT design. I've seen similar plots for the original Heil driver, and when you take real-world measurements, it's all over the place. I'll see if I can figure out how to post my measurements.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
A true ribbon has no voice coil anywhere--it's a piece of tin foil suspended in a super-strong magnetic field. The AMT is more of a planar driver--there is a voice coil of sorts etched onto the mylar element, and that element is pleated. In response to the pulsating magnetic field, the element squeezes in and out like an accordion, and shoots the air out between the pleats. It's a very interesting design, although it apparently isn't easy to achieve very flat response.
R. Pierce characterized the original AMT as essentially being a horn loaded ribbon tweeter with a couple of wrinkles.
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I can't tell much about it. I searched the site for a discussion of the construction of the driver, but I couldn't find anything. The diaphragm is "pleated," but I can't tell whether it's a true AMT design. I've seen similar plots for the original Heil driver, and when you take real-world measurements, it's all over the place. I'll see if I can figure out how to post my measurements.
Here are some independent measurements of a 2-way design using the TPL-150H.
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post #5024 of 5034 Unread 07-14-2015, 08:22 AM
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Here are some independent measurements of a 2-way design using the TPL-150H.
I'll take your word that this is a true AMT design, although I can't confirm it from the website. In any event, it displays the same periodic dips and peaks as other newer AMT's I've used, particularly a little off axis. Here's a plot of the original Heil driver.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wffodgfh6...20AMT.png?dl=0
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Here are a couple more measurements from 2008.
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I'll take your word that this is a true AMT design, although I can't confirm it from the website. In any event, it displays the same periodic dips and peaks as other newer AMT's I've used, particularly a little off axis. Here's a plot of the original Heil driver.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wffodgfh6...20AMT.png?dl=0
When used with the manufacturer's horn, it has a narrow vertical window, but that narrow vertical window works well for HT, especially with just one or two rows. Not a perfect driver, but I like that it gives you very good sound quality, but has dynamics like a compression driver. I am more of an HT person than music person.

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And back to the topic of Philharmonic Audio, all I can say is I love their RAALs.
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post #5028 of 5034 Unread 07-14-2015, 05:06 PM
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There is no better tweeter for the money, but maybe that is just an ugly rumor started by my ears!

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post #5029 of 5034 Unread 07-14-2015, 09:02 PM
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Finally something i can chime in on. couple years ago i was looking for my first ever speakers thats when the triton two came out won all these awards and great reviews took a listen for about two weeks and i was a week away from my bonus to jump into the goldenear hype now dont get me wroung they wear the best speakers in my price range that i ever heard they wear awsome like you said you were in the music not it being thrown at you i was all in. Was searching the 100 web page about reviews from pepole not reviewers to see what they say and 90% wear good then i ran into a guy named mudslide and he was talking about all this stuff i never ever would of thought of. like off axis i didnt know what the hell he was talking about so i dig a little deepen and found out how important axis and off axis is to speakers and soundstage so he was talking about you all need to check out philharmonicaudio i was like who? So i went to the first generation web page and the one thing i found amazing was dennis had something called measurement lol at all the 7 speakers i was looking at none had measurements posted i found that weird but i was new to this so then i look for more info on who dennis murphy was. You should look it up its impressive! So i went back again and again to listen to the triton 2 for over a month and what i found out that when sitting in there chair right in the sweet spot man oh man i was right there but when i started to play around like leaning over lft or rt hmmm there was a difference. taking the chair and moving it around there was so much a difference in the sound. The salesman was like why are you doing that i was like i wont being sitting in the middle most of the time. But the biggest thing was after a prolong listen my ears started hurting like ringing i didnt know why but after the third time i was done.sooo back to philharmonicaudio after weeks of searching for any info i could find one bad thing so i called dennis to inquire about the phil 3z and the first thing dennis did was ask me about my listing habits and about the difference between the phil 12&3 he was like we have some phil 2z for 2k left which was 500 less then the tri 2. I thank him for his time and told him id get back with him.my biggest concern since i was a virgin speaker buyer was the fact i couldnt here them that scared me to be honest.but after looking at all these pepole reviews there was one that cought my attention cant remember his name but all his speakers wear red and some 4 to 5 times the price of the 3z very expensive and he had them in the same class as those. now that was what i was looking for. So after debating i decided on the 3z cuz they were only 500 more then the tri 2 or thats how i justify it and the base baby lol and with the 30 day trial i couldnt go wrong. So what did i do 2 days later i upgraded the cabs so i lost the 30 day trial but by then i was very confident and had no wories. How they sound well talk about being on stage wow your write there you look up and you can visualiz everyone up on stage playing its amazing!!!!!! The first time i experienced the base was watching the movie Oz and when the turnado hit i jump and the house was a shaking it was very impressive the other was my twins have a cd with abc songs and there is pipe organ on alot of the songs and it was killing my tv speakers so went on the 3z and man oh man how those low tones move threw you jaw dropping! So i suggest you take a hard look at the slims everyone is comparing to the 3z but with out the very low low base but if i were you save some more and get the phil 3z you wont have a speaker for just five years cuz its the best damm speaker under 10k and thats a fact!!!!!! If you would like to see my speakers go to the web page there on the first page under phil 3z. Good luck in your search but you cant beat philharmonic audio.thanks dennis
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post #5030 of 5034 Unread 07-15-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
There is no better tweeter for the money, but maybe that is just an ugly rumor started by my ears!
You are talking about the RAAL, yes? No rumor. I saw it on the inet, so it must be true. Actually, I also spread the rumor. What a fantastic tweeter!! The dang thing plays from here to there and back again.

And after Zasx2's commentary, I'm wont to say that I'm a true believer, nay fanboy, of any speaker designed by Dennis Murphy. The guy's ears are genius...tho' I suspect he might have some wisdom issues with how cheaply he sells his speakers. I think he wants to spread around audio pleasure rather than make a buck. (Thank you, Dennis.)

And one day I'm gonna talk him into making a custom center speaker for all his minions. Especially me.

MARGARITAS,
they're not just for breakfast anymore.
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post #5031 of 5034 Unread 07-16-2015, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post
Or you could offer a less aggressive top section where the semi open cabinets is less slanted on the side. I just thought they remind me of something i lay after i died.

Anything else, keep up the great work.
The reason we buy dennis products is because they disappear when played my favorite one was church steeple cuz im in heaven everytime im listening and people come to my chuch just so they can experience my heven. So im just tired of pepole asking dennis to change the way they look first dont you think dennis would of but he found sonic purity in this design so come to are heaven or go buy fancy speakers. Best speakers under 10k no question asked
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post #5032 of 5034 Unread Today, 03:36 PM
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Is the product page for the Philharmonitors still floating around somewhere? I want to sell my Philharmonitors so I can buy BMR's, but could definitely use a specs page to help.

If I found a suitable person to purchase my Philharmonitors, I'll end up buying the BMR's as soon as possible. But because of my dissatisfaction with the Philharmonitor cabinets and the BMR's being back ported, I'm going to have to get the custom Jim Salk ones. If I asked for a custom front-ported cabinet - is there any idea how long the wait might be for something like that to be put together? Is shipping included in the $1,600 price tag? What are my options as for the customization and color of the cabinets?

Thanks
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post #5033 of 5034 Unread Today, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post
Is the product page for the Philharmonitors still floating around somewhere? I want to sell my Philharmonitors so I can buy BMR's, but could definitely use a specs page to help.

If I found a suitable person to purchase my Philharmonitors, I'll end up buying the BMR's as soon as possible. But because of my dissatisfaction with the Philharmonitor cabinets and the BMR's being back ported, I'm going to have to get the custom Jim Salk ones. If I asked for a custom front-ported cabinet - is there any idea how long the wait might be for something like that to be put together? Is shipping included in the $1,600 price tag? What are my options as for the customization and color of the cabinets?

Thanks
Hi. You can find all of the relevant information about the old Philharmonitors (AKA Alexis Rebecca's) here: http://www.alexissound.com/rebecca/

It would take Jim something like 6 weeks to complete a pair of BMR cabinets using standard veneer and finish. The price does not include shipping, which is capped at $75, but I'll throw that in to make amends for whatever flaws surfaced in the Philharmonitor cabinets. You'll have to remind me when you order, though. BTW--the supplier of my prefabricated BMR cabinets has discontinued the straight-sided version I've been using. I can only get the more expensive curved ones now, so I'll have to raise the price to $1450/pr.
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post #5034 of 5034 Unread Today, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
Hi. You can find all of the relevant information about the old Philharmonitors (AKA Alexis Rebecca's) here: http://www.alexissound.com/rebecca/

It would take Jim something like 6 weeks to complete a pair of BMR cabinets using standard veneer and finish. The price does not include shipping, which is capped at $75, but I'll throw that in to make amends for whatever flaws surfaced in the Philharmonitor cabinets. You'll have to remind me when you order, though. BTW--the supplier of my prefabricated BMR cabinets has discontinued the straight-sided version I've been using. I can only get the more expensive curved ones now, so I'll have to raise the price to $1450/pr.
Thank you Dennis, you are the man. I'm sure you'll be hearing from me with an order not long from now. Just depends on how long it takes to find these babies a new home
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