Speaker Shootout!! - Page 32 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #931 of 1145 Old 04-14-2012, 08:13 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Ok guys since my shootout is over I just wanted to rank them from 1 on down and I will include some older speakers since I had them head to head against my 5000's before.

1. DR-200's
2. JBL 4675
3. JBL 3722N
4. eD cinema 12 upgraded
5. JTR triple 8 sealed
6. CHT SHO-10's
7. JTR triple 8 originals
8. M&K S-5000's
9. KL-650's
10. Triad in room LCR gold classics

Now this is my preference for reference level movie watching where I value big dynamic sound with detail over everything else. Many of the speakers had better highs than the JBLs but their big dynamic sound was just hard to ignore! Now their lack luster highs do make them not as good for music and I will rate them for music now. I am talking 100 dBs for music because above that the triads would fall apart which means 112 dBs at the speaker.

1. DR-200's
2. triads
3. JTR sealed triple 8's
4. eD cinema 12 upgraded
5. CHT SHO-10's
6. M&K S-5000
7. JTR original triple 8
8. JBL 4675
9. JBL 3722n
10. Klipsch KL-650

I just want to point out for those reading along that the Triad Gold LCR's used in the above shoot out are not current models. They are the "Classic" model, which was discontinued years ago and replaced with the current Gold LCR, which is much more capable than the "Classic" model.

Here is what Paul Scarpelli had to say about the Classic Gold LCR's when MK posted about them on the Triad thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Those original Gold LCRs came out in 1994, and we discontinued them when the Seas drivers were no longer available, just a few years ago. They're a nice small-room LCR, but don't expect them to rock a big room. They're smallish, they handle around 150 watts, and sensitivity is 90 dB. Our dealers and customers LOVED these speakers, but they may not do well in a shoot-out because response in the treble starts to droop before 15 kHz. (The horn gain causes the midrange and low treble to be more pronounced than upper treble.) If you can kick them 4 dB at 13 kHz or so, they sound very natural and neutral. In shoot-outs, it's been my experience that speakers with flat response don't do well, subjectively. A jagged response curve sounds more dramatic. The curve on the Gold LCR is far flatter than any M&K, but M&Ks always sounded very exciting. (I sold as much M&K as anyone in history when I was in retail. They were very dramatic, and a little rough-sounding, but very good for HT.) The Gold LCR should sound "calmer" and more listenable, but you may "like" the M&Ks more. The M&Ks will definitely play louder.

Now the NEW Gold LCRs...that would be a different shoot-out result.

The current Gold LCR's are MUCH more capable than the Classics MK had. Here is an entire page of discussions he had with PS before he decided to sell them:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...c#post20792271

Here is the most telling quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

I'm pleased that you can appreciate the good qualities of these speakers, and accept their limitations. They play fairly loud, but they won't pin you to the wall like the new Gold LCRs. They're very smooth and natural, which, to unsophisticated ears, means "boring." They can be damaged by overpowering them, although they can take some punishment. I used 300 watts per channel into my Gold LCRs fifteen years ago, and I did manage to blow the 6.5" drivers in my center. It was my fault, and quite often I push Triad speakers unreasonably hard, just to see whaddup. I haven't blown anything since. Yours should sound great with ADA, which is superb electronics.

Here is the current Gold LCR:



Here is the Classic Gold LCR MK had:



I am pointing this out because I wouldn't want anyone to write off the current model because the Classic model, (an 18 year old design), ranked last for HT in a shootout. I have heard the current Gold LCR, and I would describe them as being "very capable" for HT.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #932 of 1145 Old 04-14-2012, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I just want to point out for those reading along that the Triad Gold LCR's used in the above shoot out are not current models. They are the "Classic" model, which was discontinued years ago and replaced with the current Gold LCR, which is much more capable than the "Classic" model.

Here is what Paul Scarpelli had to say about the Classic Gold LCR's when MK posted about them on the Triad thread:

The current Gold LCR's are MUCH more capable than the Classics MK had. Here is an entire page of discussions he had with PS before he decided to sell them:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...c#post20792271

Here is the most telling quote:

Here is the current Gold LCR:

Here is the Classic Gold LCR MK had:

I am pointing this out because I wouldn't want anyone to write off the current model because the Classic model, (an 18 year old design), ranked last for HT in a shootout. I have heard the current Gold LCR, and I would describe them as being "very capable" for HT.

Craig

Agreed! I have been saying if the older ones could play louder and more dynamic they could be the winner!
MKtheater is online now  
post #933 of 1145 Old 04-16-2012, 09:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Raul GS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What other response would I want?

My comment is not about the Elite or the ADA units, but rather about the frequency response at the LP. Dr. Toole's research (you may be able to find white papers at Harman if you don't have his books) indicates that we generally prefer smooth frequency responses that slope downwards starting around 2 Khz. A flat frequency response is generally not recommended. In fact if you look at the Room Eq units like Trinnov, Dirac Live, and JBL's ARCOS (which are highly respected and generally come in units costing 5 figures), they all share a smooth frequency response with a downward slope. If you look at the blind studies done by Harman for room eq, you will find that the units that performed best had a couple of things in common: a) smooth frequency response; b) downward slope.

NOTE: Please realize that the research I'm referencing is about frequency response at the LP, not measurements taken 1 M from the speaker (where flat and smooth frequency response are desirable goals).

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
Raul GS is online now  
post #934 of 1145 Old 04-16-2012, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

My comment is not about the Elite or the ADA units, but rather about the frequency response at the LP. Dr. Toole's research (you may be able to find white papers at Harman if you don't have his books) indicates that we generally prefer smooth frequency responses that slope downwards starting around 2 Khz. A flat frequency response is generally not recommended. In fact if you look at the Room Eq units like Trinnov, Dirac Live, and JBL's ARCOS (which are highly respected and generally come in units costing 5 figures), they all share a smooth frequency response with a downward slope. If you look at the blind studies done by Harman for room eq, you will find that the units that performed best had a couple of things in common: a) smooth frequency response; b) downward slope.

NOTE: Please realize that the research I'm referencing is about frequency response at the LP, not measurements taken 1 M from the speaker (where flat and smooth frequency response are desirable goals).

I understand but I prefer the DR's response as is over anything I have heard in my room!
MKtheater is online now  
post #935 of 1145 Old 04-16-2012, 05:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dbuudo07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Just my two cents about the downward slope, I prefer it to an upward slope, but I've found that a flatter frequency response that is delivered with low distortion is extremely pleasant to the ears. I completely understand where James is coming from.

James, any decisions made or contemplation on trying out ribbons in your DR's?

David Budo
Dbuudo07 is offline  
post #936 of 1145 Old 04-16-2012, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Just my two cents about the downward slope, I prefer it to an upward slope, but I've found that a flatter frequency response that is delivered with low distortion is extremely pleasant to the ears. I completely understand where James is coming from.

James, any decisions made or contemplation on trying out ribbons in your DR's?

I have but which ones and what would be the sensitivity, power handling, and price!
MKtheater is online now  
post #937 of 1145 Old 04-18-2012, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Hey guys, just watched my first full movie with my current setup in 5.1 since I don't have 2 extra channels for my back speakers. After that experience I am going back to 5.1 as my room just sounds amazing with 5.1! This means I want to run 5 identical speakers so I am selling or trading my wedge 6's for one DR-200 or DR-250. I have 4 so 4 for one.
MKtheater is online now  
post #938 of 1145 Old 04-18-2012, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
One more thing, how do you guys EQ the rear speakers? I want to get a response at 1 meter so what to do?
MKtheater is online now  
post #939 of 1145 Old 04-19-2012, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
The guys that tried to PM me I cleared my PM's.
MKtheater is online now  
post #940 of 1145 Old 04-29-2012, 04:59 AM
Member
 
Oscillate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"This means I want to run 5 identical speakers..."

I did that too with my first 5.1 setup. However I have come to realize/believe that
since ths side surround speakers mostly only have to reproduce ambient sounds, that
this is really not neccessary. Not to mention having to account for the extra space
they require in regards to placement issues. The Wedge 6s are probably more than
up to the task.

However, on the subject of trying some BFM TLAH Pros in the L/C/R mains postions
for comparison to the current DR-200s ...now that sound interesting
Oscillate is offline  
post #941 of 1145 Old 04-29-2012, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate View Post

"This means I want to run 5 identical speakers..."

I did that too with my first 5.1 setup. However I have come to realize/believe that
since ths side surround speakers mostly only have to reproduce ambient sounds, that
this is really not neccessary. Not to mention having to account for the extra space
they require in regards to placement issues. The Wedge 6s are probably more than
up to the task.

However, on the subject of trying some BFM TLAH Pros in the L/C/R mains postions
for comparison to the current DR-200s ...now that sound interesting

Wedge 6's are plenty, but I want exact timbre matching. Movies are putting more dynamic sounds in the surrounds and require better and better surrounds. I listen at reference and it matters!
MKtheater is online now  
post #942 of 1145 Old 04-29-2012, 01:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
brandonnash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: murfreesboro, tn
Posts: 3,942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Agree 100%. Since I upgraded to horn surrounds I haven't felt anything lacking in the dynamics. The wife hates it so I guess I'm doing something right.
brandonnash is offline  
post #943 of 1145 Old 04-30-2012, 05:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chrapladm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Raal , Fountek or Beyma TPL-150 would all be nice ribbons. I would really like to try the BFM stuff such as the DR's but dont want a cheap tweeter. I would rather use a nice ribbon also. But with budget its hard to do so at times.

I love my SLA's but they are lacking a little in highs. I would much prefer a better tweeter if I rebuild but that will have to wait.

So yes please try a ribbon for us. Oh and what 8" are you using in your 200?
chrapladm is online now  
post #944 of 1145 Old 04-30-2012, 06:15 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Agree 100%. Since I upgraded to horn surrounds I haven't felt anything lacking in the dynamics. The wife hates it so I guess I'm doing something right.

Brandon, what are you using for surrounds?

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me: Mike@AVScience.com
Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/ 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI & many more.
Klipsch, RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is online now  
post #945 of 1145 Old 04-30-2012, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Raal , Fountek or Beyma TPL-150 would all be nice ribbons. I would really like to try the BFM stuff such as the DR's but dont want a cheap tweeter. I would rather use a nice ribbon also. But with budget its hard to do so at times.

I love my SLA's but they are lacking a little in highs. I would much prefer a better tweeter if I rebuild but that will have to wait.

So yes please try a ribbon for us. Oh and what 8" are you using in your 200?

The DR's have 16 tweeters in a horn shape so they are effortless and work well, I say they sound as good if not better than the DE-250 I owned. Better I mean dynamics. I am using just the beta 8's but I am getting a DR with a delta pro 8 for my center channel and see how that works. I probably won't notice a difference. I will run 5 DR-200's for now.
MKtheater is online now  
post #946 of 1145 Old 04-30-2012, 07:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chrapladm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Oh yah , MK are you running your subs up to your 200's ? Meaning 150hz?

Do you miss anything from having the Titans and DR's verse subs/DR?

Thats the other main thing I was worried about.
chrapladm is online now  
post #947 of 1145 Old 04-30-2012, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Oh yah , MK are you running your subs up to your 200's ? Meaning 150hz?

Do you miss anything from having the Titans and DR's verse subs/DR?

Thats the other main thing I was worried about.

I have not really run a movie with lots of midbass that I have noticed yet. The DR's drop off at 150hz but they are still very sensitive at 80hz, around 97 dBs so they could still handle anything we are used to. The titan's are needed if you want JBL 2226's type of midbass! I will have to run some movies with more midbass that I am familiar with to really compare. My next sub system is coming soon so I will be working on that for a week.
MKtheater is online now  
post #948 of 1145 Old 04-30-2012, 08:28 AM
Senior Member
 
ehoeft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 210
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
What subs are you going with?
ehoeft is offline  
post #949 of 1145 Old 04-30-2012, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

What subs are you going with?

DIY kits from eD but running a clone amp and DCX.
MKtheater is online now  
post #950 of 1145 Old 06-20-2012, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Hey guys, sorry to bring up an old thread but I have been messing with my DR speakers and I have tried 3 different EQ locations and I tried stacking the center channel with 2 DR-200's. I have dicovered a couple of things. I EQ'd at the speakers for the shootout which sound great, I then EQ'd at a certain postion to integrate with my subs better and it sound rather dull and lifeless. Finally, I EQ'd each speaker at the seat in front of it and it made everything even better! The feel of these and detail just went to another level and Dave matthews at reference is just breath taking! I now can hear every strum of the guitar and feel to go with it! It sounds like my old Maggie speakers but with dynamics and a huge sweet spot! Truly much better than before, well, better anyways.

Stacking the DR's also made a big improvement with 2 things, it made the soundstage much bigger and for some reason their low end was extended a whole octave! The dual stacked center channel is now flat to 70hz at the LP! It used to drop off at 150hz! Of course their total spl capability and sensitivity went way up as well but those are not really noticed during movies since I had enough already. It is hard to explain how great these sound now but just wanted to pass on my experiences.

BTW, I am going to start a new thread on my new sub system which is another upgrade and I did not expect it to be!
MKtheater is online now  
post #951 of 1145 Old 06-20-2012, 07:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,853
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 308 Post(s)
Liked: 610
Good I've been waiting to hear what you thought about those ED subs. When I read you went with 13" ED drivers I thought that was a bit of a strange choice coming from the CHT 18s.

Have you seen the new flat pack site yet for the DIY'ers?

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks.html
forum member Erich H started up the site.

Those cabs are so cheap it seems hard to now avoid going the DIY route. ESPECIALLY if you have your subs behind an AT screen. Heck you could make a mountain of these cabs and Parts Express Titanic MK3 drivers for the typical price of a couple top end subs!

Sealed sub box - $98
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks/35-sub-flat-pack.html

Matching Titanic MK 3 drivers - $200 shipped
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-420


I'm really curious how eight of them would compare to a couple of JTR Caps or Seaton Submersives.
A buddy priced out the flat pack shipping and for eight cabs it was $150 bucks shipping.

So you are talking ~$2540 for eight 15" cabs and drivers. Throw in an amp or two and a mini DSP system and you've got a heck of a setup for between 3 and 3.5G.

I'd throw down and buy it myself, but I've been burnt before with quantity over quality and hesitate just a bit. I wish I could hear it first.

I tried a car audio subwoofer box one time with eight 8" subwoofer drivers. It sounded TERRIBLE in comparison to a single high quality 10" Infinity Kappa perfect driver I was using. So that's part of my hesitation. More isn't absolutely better - and I've never experienced anything with that many drivers ect a failed test at the HuskerOmaha meet with eight MFW-15's (there were couple drivers not playing correctly) and that crappy car audio sub system with eight 8"s. I know you and many of the DIY'ers are proponents of multiple subs....

hmmmm.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #952 of 1145 Old 06-20-2012, 07:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bunga99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 31
MK,

I remember you stated reference levels were too loud (on certain movies) on the Pioneer receiver after running MCACC at the seats (LP).
I think you said using the Ada and manually eq’ing at the speakers made reference level much better for all movies.
Did you notice any ill effects at reference with manually eq’ing the speakers at the seats (LP) with the Ada? Just curious.

Also, are you going to start the Sub Thread in the Subwoofer section or the DIY section?

It’s been great and a lotta fun to read your thoughts on all this stuff! Thanks for sharing!!

Claude
Bunga99 is online now  
post #953 of 1145 Old 06-20-2012, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Well, after putting this new system together I will agree with you. Of course these little 13's(12's) can't play as loud or as deep as a LMS 5400 but the key is the design of the driver! I have had good drivers and they all did things well. The Danley's were designed for the 12-54hz region and excelled at it but the 50hz and above was hard to smooth out but was possible. My CHT subs can go deep with LT boost but were very sensitive in the midbass so they excelled at that(they did both but the midbass was more natural). These little guys are better down low than up top and one can easily feel the difference(with many of them). It is hard to explain but I can give a short experience that others can relate to. I have always run my subs hot for the added effects I got with them, always. My older eD 190v2 system I rab 12 dBs hot, my DTS-10's were 5 dBs hot, my F-20's were 10 dBs hot, my CHT subs were 12 dBs hot. The DTS-10's were the only subs I did not run as hot and I am thinking it was because they were tuned to 12hz and that extra low end gave me the feeling I craved so I did not need to turn it up as much. I kept cranking the other systems to get that feel. So, when I created an LT boost for my CHT subs guess what, I only needed to run them 5 dBs hot like the DTS-10's to get my desired effects. With these little guys, I calibrated them to 5 dB's hot and ran my normal scenes and I immediately ran to the processor to turn down the subs! I ended up running my new subs at 71 dBs or cold, not hot for the first time ever! This gave me the same effects as the DTS-10's subs at 5 dBs hot. I don't know how else to explain this but that is what happened so far. I am getting graphs and pics together to start a new thread and I still have not EQ'd my subs yet. I need to flatten them out a bit around the crossover region and they have a little peak at 20 and 40 hz. They extend to 5hz without any LT boost but drop off like a rock due to gear limitations, mostly the mic.
MKtheater is online now  
post #954 of 1145 Old 06-20-2012, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

MK,
I remember you stated reference levels were too loud (on certain movies) on the Pioneer receiver after running MCACC at the seats (LP).
I think you said using the Ada and manually eq’ing at the speakers made reference level much better for all movies.
Did you notice any ill effects at reference with manually eq’ing the speakers at the seats (LP) with the Ada? Just curious.
Also, are you going to start the Sub Thread in the Subwoofer section or the DIY section?
It’s been great and a lotta fun to read your thoughts on all this stuff! Thanks for sharing!!
Claude

Actually, when I stacked everything and EQ'd at the speaker again the Ada was also too loud at reference but now that I EQ'd at the seats reference is fine again. I must of had the mic too low or something near the speaker(I EQ with screen in place). I can even watch Dave Matthews at reference which is a loud bluray.
MKtheater is online now  
post #955 of 1145 Old 06-20-2012, 09:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,100
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked: 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, after putting this new system together I will agree with you. Of course these little 13's(12's) can't play as loud or as deep as a LMS 5400 but the key is the design of the driver! I have had good drivers and they all did things well. The Danley's were designed for the 12-54hz region and excelled at it but the 50hz and above was hard to smooth out but was possible. My CHT subs can go deep with LT boost but were very sensitive in the midbass so they excelled at that(they did both but the midbass was more natural). These little guys are better down low than up top and one can easily feel the difference(with many of them). It is hard to explain but I can give a short experience that others can relate to. I have always run my subs hot for the added effects I got with them, always. My older eD 190v2 system I rab 12 dBs hot, my DTS-10's were 5 dBs hot, my F-20's were 10 dBs hot, my CHT subs were 12 dBs hot. The DTS-10's were the only subs I did not run as hot and I am thinking it was because they were tuned to 12hz and that extra low end gave me the feeling I craved so I did not need to turn it up as much. I kept cranking the other systems to get that feel. So, when I created an LT boost for my CHT subs guess what, I only needed to run them 5 dBs hot like the DTS-10's to get my desired effects. With these little guys, I calibrated them to 5 dB's hot and ran my normal scenes and I immediately ran to the processor to turn down the subs! I ended up running my new subs at 71 dBs or cold, not hot for the first time ever! This gave me the same effects as the DTS-10's subs at 5 dBs hot. I don't know how else to explain this but that is what happened so far. I am getting graphs and pics together to start a new thread and I still have not EQ'd my subs yet. I need to flatten them out a bit around the crossover region and they have a little peak at 20 and 40 hz. They extend to 5hz without any LT boost but drop off like a rock due to gear limitations, mostly the mic.

Have you found the same to be true for music? Did you run your previous sub setups hot for music and now you don't? thanks
carp is online now  
post #956 of 1145 Old 06-21-2012, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Have you found the same to be true for music? Did you run your previous sub setups hot for music and now you don't? thanks

For music I had to turn down the LFE to about 5 dBs hot on my older setups(not the DTS-10's) and the new subs sound great where they are. I guess I like a hot low end or a house curve and not a hot midbass.
MKtheater is online now  
post #957 of 1145 Old 06-21-2012, 07:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,490
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, after putting this new system together I will agree with you. Of course these little 13's(12's) can't play as loud or as deep as a LMS 5400 but the key is the design of the driver! I have had good drivers and they all did things well. The Danley's were designed for the 12-54hz region and excelled at it but the 50hz and above was hard to smooth out but was possible. My CHT subs can go deep with LT boost but were very sensitive in the midbass so they excelled at that(they did both but the midbass was more natural). These little guys are better down low than up top and one can easily feel the difference(with many of them). It is hard to explain but I can give a short experience that others can relate to. I have always run my subs hot for the added effects I got with them, always. My older eD 190v2 system I rab 12 dBs hot, my DTS-10's were 5 dBs hot, my F-20's were 10 dBs hot, my CHT subs were 12 dBs hot. The DTS-10's were the only subs I did not run as hot and I am thinking it was because they were tuned to 12hz and that extra low end gave me the feeling I craved so I did not need to turn it up as much. I kept cranking the other systems to get that feel. So, when I created an LT boost for my CHT subs guess what, I only needed to run them 5 dBs hot like the DTS-10's to get my desired effects. With these little guys, I calibrated them to 5 dB's hot and ran my normal scenes and I immediately ran to the processor to turn down the subs! I ended up running my new subs at 71 dBs or cold, not hot for the first time ever! This gave me the same effects as the DTS-10's subs at 5 dBs hot. I don't know how else to explain this but that is what happened so far. I am getting graphs and pics together to start a new thread and I still have not EQ'd my subs yet. I need to flatten them out a bit around the crossover region and they have a little peak at 20 and 40 hz. They extend to 5hz without any LT boost but drop off like a rock due to gear limitations, mostly the mic.


Iv got a few questions for you, Mk. First, pardon my ignorance but what are you refering to as "LT boost"? I am not familiar with that term? Second, what model of CHT subs were you running? I believe that you had 6 of them, correct? What Ed driver and box design are you using as your most recent subwoofer purchase? And last but not least, how did both the CHT sub's and the new Ed sub's compare to the F-20?

I am thinking of building a pair of F-20's, but, I am also considering the CHT 18.1's or perhaps an A7-450 from Elemental Designs. Not sure which to go with.
Martycool007 is offline  
post #958 of 1145 Old 06-21-2012, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Iv got a few questions for you, Mk. First, pardon my ignorance but what are you refering to as "LT boost"? I am not familiar with that term? Second, what model of CHT subs were you running? I believe that you had 6 of them, correct? What Ed driver and box design are you using as your most recent subwoofer purchase? And last but not least, how did both the CHT sub's and the new Ed sub's compare to the F-20?
I am thinking of building a pair of F-20's, but, I am also considering the CHT 18.1's or perhaps an A7-450 from Elemental Designs. Not sure which to go with.

Sorry, LT boost is just an LT circuit or in my case just a low end boost or low shelf filter. I raises everything below 20hz to a level I like without touching the rest of the response.

This

no_eq.jpg

To this

eq.jpg

To eventually this

eq_higher.jpg

I was using 4 CHT 18.2's. My new subs are the A7S-650's but in DIY kit form and my own amp. The F-20 was great from 20-80hz in room(my crossover is THX 80hz). The CHT subs were great from 15-80hz in my room without the boost and great from 7-80hz with it. The new eD subs are even better, much better, from 5-30hz in my room and equal above them. The F-20's are great if you do not care for under 20hz bass and the best bang for buck going! It all depends on how low you want to go. I can feel the difference in my room but if you can't you need more displacement and money. Getting that low requires many drivers and power.
MKtheater is online now  
post #959 of 1145 Old 06-21-2012, 09:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,853
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 308 Post(s)
Liked: 610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Good I've been waiting to hear what you thought about those ED subs. When I read you went with 13" ED drivers I thought that was a bit of a strange choice coming from the CHT 18s.

Have you seen the new flat pack site yet for the DIY'ers?

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks.html
forum member Erich H started up the site.

Those cabs are so cheap it seems hard to now avoid going the DIY route. ESPECIALLY if you have your subs behind an AT screen. Heck you could make a mountain of these cabs and Parts Express Titanic MK3 drivers for the typical price of a couple top end subs!

Sealed sub box - $98
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks/35-sub-flat-pack.html

Matching Titanic MK 3 drivers - $200 shipped
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-420


I'm really curious how eight of them would compare to a couple of JTR Caps or Seaton Submersives.
A buddy priced out the flat pack shipping and for eight cabs it was $150 bucks shipping.

So you are talking ~$2540 for eight 15" cabs and drivers. Throw in an amp or two and a mini DSP system and you've got a heck of a setup for between 3 and 3.5G.

I'd throw down and buy it myself, but I've been burnt before with quantity over quality and hesitate just a bit. I wish I could hear it first.

I tried a car audio subwoofer box one time with eight 8" subwoofer drivers. It sounded TERRIBLE in comparison to a single high quality 10" Infinity Kappa perfect driver I was using. So that's part of my hesitation. More isn't absolutely better - and I've never experienced anything with that many drivers ect a failed test at the HuskerOmaha meet with eight MFW-15's (there were couple drivers not playing correctly) and that crappy car audio sub system with eight 8"s. I know you and many of the DIY'ers are proponents of multiple subs....

hmmmm.

Good thing I hesitated. I talked to notnyt, Scott Simonian, and bossobass through PM. They all three advised that eight of these drivers wouldn't necessarily best the JTR Cap pair I had - since they are in ported form, and that I'd need eight of a beefier driver in sealed configs to likely match the Caps (bossobass ensured to point out that this is assuming the caps drivers specs are accurate). The cost of a stronger and recommended driver x8 kills the cheap price interest, and dampens my interest in trying for a big rack of sealed. This isn't really related, but figured I'd update my previous post in case anyone was curious what I found out by talking to some of the experts about this DIY option with Dayton Titanic MK3 drivers.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #960 of 1145 Old 06-22-2012, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Good thing I hesitated. I talked to notnyt, Scott Simonian, and bossobass through PM. They all three advised that eight of these drivers wouldn't necessarily best the JTR Cap pair I had - since they are in ported form, and that I'd need eight of a beefier driver in sealed configs to likely match the Caps (bossobass ensured to point out that this is assuming the caps drivers specs are accurate). The cost of a stronger and recommended driver x8 kills the cheap price interest, and dampens my interest in trying for a big rack of sealed. This isn't really related, but figured I'd update my previous post in case anyone was curious what I found out by talking to some of the experts about this DIY option with Dayton Titanic MK3 drivers.

I agree with them.
MKtheater is online now  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Jbl Professional , Jbl Harman Kardon , Jbl Professional 4645c Cinema Thx Subwoofer
Gear in this thread - 4645c by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off