Speaker Shootout!! - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 1145 Old 12-07-2012, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I dialed in the front array of 3 dual stacked DR-250's and I now have towers for my surrounds, Wedge 8's(Bills prototypes) on top of 22 inch wide Titan T-39's. these tower surrounds are awesome! They sound so big and powerful I almost want to move my subs in the corners flanking my DR stacks with Titan 39's on the bottom of each. The Midbass is just awesome with these. I mentioned this to my friend today and he said he has never ever heard my room sound this good before so why even bother changing. I have 130 dB capable from 10-20khz! I will run a sweep at 130 to see if I can get to 6hz without compression.
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post #1082 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post


MK - If this is true, and you want to do the measurement portion of this shootout properly, you really need a calibrated mic. You can get one for $85 from here: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...behringer.html


Get the "basic plus" model. The "plus" model comes with calibration files for the mic pointed forward and tip-up. I find the tip-up mic orientation gives the most accurate HF measurements.


You'll also need a mic preamp. This M-Audio Mobile Pre is inexpensive and accurate: http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Mobile...3125252&sr=8-4



Even with a generic cal file for the Rat Shack SPL meter, there is so much variance between production runs of the meter, that you really don't know what the result is going to be.


Hope that helps, good luck and have fun in your testing!
You need a pre-amp to power the mic. This one is USB. Does that mean that you bypass the sound card? I bought a U-control UCA202 USB sound card and plug the Rat Shack SPL meter into its input. What do i need to buy with the calibrated mic?

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post #1083 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

You need a pre-amp to power the mic. This one is USB. Does that mean that you bypass the sound card? I bought a U-control UCA202 USB sound card and plug the Rat Shack SPL meter into its input. What do i need to buy with the calibrated mic?
Use this mic with HolmImpulse and you don't need anything else, not even an external card:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-808
Quote:
The DR-250s...
I really don't understand why in that speaker shootout they didn't like them
Bad EQ. I warned them going in that if they weren't EQd right that they wouldn't work right. As you're well aware of they aren't plug and play boxes.

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post #1084 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Use this mic with HolmImpulse and you don't need anything else, not even an external card:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-808
Bad EQ. I warned them going in that if they weren't EQd right that they wouldn't work right. As you're well aware of they aren't plug and play boxes.

Yep, they did not have the time to get used to them. They recieved them that day and brought them to the meet. I have owned DR's for a long time now and I just got the perfect EQ now and nothing comes close, so far.
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post #1085 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yep, they did not have the time to get used to them. They recieved them that day and brought them to the meet. I have owned DR's for a long time now and I just got the perfect EQ now and nothing comes close, so far.
It's not all that difficult to get a good result, pros using them with DEQ2496s and DriveRacks get them EQd to the room in a few minutes. Maybe not perfect within that time window, but eminently usable, as they all attest to.

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post #1086 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Use this mic with HolmImpulse and you don't need anything else, not even an external card:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-808
Sweet! Thanks Bill!

PE charges an arm and a leg to ship to Canada, and it's on back-order at Solen in Montreal, but I'll get one for sure! cool.gif

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post #1087 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Use this mic with HolmImpulse and you don't need anything else, not even an external card:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-808
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Sweet! Thanks Bill!
PE charges an arm and a leg to ship to Canada, and it's on back-order at Solen in Montreal, but I'll get one for sure! cool.gif

Hunting around a bit, I found this thread which raised doubts on the calibration (but far from conclusive):

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/spl-meters-mics-calibration-sound-cards/63440-new-dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-mic.html#axzz2Ec2iuj00

But they also mention a USB mic from miniDSP at about the same price:

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

It can also be used as an SPL meter which is cool.
Any comments or further suggestions Bill?

Much appreciated!

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post #1088 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Hunting around a bit, I found this thread which raised doubts on the calibration (but far from conclusive):
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/spl-meters-mics-calibration-sound-cards/63440-new-dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-mic.html#axzz2Ec2iuj00
But they also mention a USB mic from miniDSP at about the same price:
http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
Same mic. I don't see how you'd use it to measure SPL. No problem, though. In HolmImpulse after taking the measurement you can move the FR graph up/down on the chart, so calibrating it to SPL is simple. Measure in HI, then take a 1w/1m SPL measurement with a sine tone within the speaker passband where the RS meter is flat, say 100Hz. The HI chart is referenced to 0dB, so if the RS measurement is, say, 90dB you move the HI FR trace so that 100Hz is at -10dB. That makes the 0dB reference line 100dB, -10dB is 90 dB, -20dB is 80dB, etc.

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post #1089 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 07:08 PM
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You mean to say that the Dayton Audio USB mic and the miniDSP UMIK-1are the same? If that's the case, I might just order the miniDSP mic as it's back-ordered in Montreal and about the same price (miniDSP likely a bit cheaper). EDIT: They look to be very similar anyway. I don't think one is a better buy then the other. Since I emailed solen to ask about the back-order delay, I'll give them a day to reply before deciding which to get.

Concerning using as an SPL meter, the miniDSP site says it comes with an amplitude calibration.

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post #1090 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I am going to run some THD sine waves at my LP from 13 feet away. What frequencies are normal to do these? 200hz, 500hz, 1khz? I will run a 105 dBs sine wave at each frequency to see what reference is like at my LP. Also to note, sine waves are harder to do than a quick peak from a movie since these are constant sine waves. I figure if I can reproduce constant sine waves cleanly at reference there is not a movie I can't handle!
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post #1091 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am going to run some THD sine waves at my LP from 13 feet away. What frequencies are normal to do these? 200hz, 500hz, 1khz? I will run a 105 dBs sine wave at each frequency to see what reference is like at my LP. Also to note, sine waves are harder to do than a quick peak from a movie since these are constant sine waves. I figure if I can reproduce constant sine waves cleanly at reference there is not a movie I can't handle!
Can you include the F3 of the speakers?
Are you able to swap out other lesser speakers you've kept around, to show the difference?
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post #1092 of 1145 Old 12-09-2012, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I only have a 888lp to test otherwise all BFM speakers. You want the F3 at the LP? I EQ'd them flat to my subs with an 80hz crossover. I have run them full range and I would say the F3 is from 100-150hz, I will have to check. I can measure both at the same location which is the main measuring position, dead center front row at ear height and location. I use a full calibrated behringer mic from spectrum labs and the mobile pre sound card. REW as well.
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post #1093 of 1145 Old 12-10-2012, 05:07 AM
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MK,

The new REW version includes distortion measurement from a sweep, so you can nust run measurement sweeps and look at the distortion products by order or THD. Very handy tool.

JSS
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post #1094 of 1145 Old 12-10-2012, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am going to run some THD sine waves at my LP from 13 feet away. What frequencies are normal to do these? 200hz, 500hz, 1khz? I will run a 105 dBs sine wave at each frequency to see what reference is like at my LP.
That's one way to do it, but a lot of work. HolmImpulse and similar software does the entire bandwidth, FR, phase and THD, with a single sweep.

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post #1095 of 1145 Old 12-10-2012, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, I can download the new REW(I am not sure if I have already) and just take a 105 dB sweep.
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post #1096 of 1145 Old 12-12-2012, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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So I measured my center channel and mains and at reference at my seats I am under 5% THD and less. I guess at reference you can say that it is very clean. I have listened to sine waves and even at 20%THD the tone does not change. As the THD moves higher and higher it still sounds the same but now your amp is working harder and harder and you have no idea. I almost melted my expensive amp doing this. If anyone wants to measure reference please listen to Bill and use a sweep which is short and sweet. I know omnimic has a THD sweep. Since I have already done this there is no need to do anymore.

Here are some results at the most difficult frequencies with subs and speakers.



























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post #1097 of 1145 Old 12-12-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have listened to sine waves and even at 20%THD the tone does not change.
When the THD consists of even order harmonics the tone won't change, as you're hearing overtones spaced exactly an octave apart. It's odd order harmonics that stand out. Even order harmonics tend to be a problem only with subs, as they can appear as above bandwidth content that can be localized, and when the subs and mains aren't sharing the same footprint the harmonics from the subs can conflict with those same frequencies coming from the mains.

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post #1098 of 1145 Old 12-12-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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What I am impressed with are the THD numbers where both my subs and DR's rolloff, the crossover region. I am under 1% from 80-200 hz which to me was going to be the hardest because the DR's rolloff at 100-150hz and the subs rolled off at 100hz. It is very clean at reference with sine waves so program material is easy!
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post #1099 of 1145 Old 12-13-2012, 06:08 AM
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That is impressive. The LFE tones are at 130dB!

Did you find the distortion function on the normal sweep view? Just like clicking phase on and off, you can do the same with THD.

JSS
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post #1100 of 1145 Old 12-13-2012, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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That is impressive. The LFE tones are at 130dB!
Did you find the distortion function on the normal sweep view? Just like clicking phase on and off, you can do the same with THD.
JSS

I did not see it but next time I will so it would be a quick sweep and not these long continous sine waves. 130 dBs is impressive because my previous subs were complaining at 122 dBs before. The F-20's would reach 20% THD but still sound great doing so but the CHT subs were complaining at 122 dBs. These only complained with the 130 dB 10 hz test but at 10% they were fine and 15 and 20hz were very clean sounding. The room no so much.
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post #1101 of 1145 Old 12-13-2012, 10:08 AM
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...These only complained with the 130 dB 10 hz test but at 10% they were fine and 15 and 20hz were very clean sounding. The room no so much.

Ha next you'll want to rubber-mount everything in the room to reduce "Room Distortion" biggrin.gif

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post #1102 of 1145 Old 12-13-2012, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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No need but I know you were joking.
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post #1103 of 1145 Old 12-16-2012, 01:45 PM
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Any updates on the amp? Good to go still I assume.

edit:

nvermind I just seen read your response about it in another thread. good deal

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post #1104 of 1145 Old 12-21-2012, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Yup, amp is still kicking and sounding great!

Since now I know how little THD I have and how great this sounds it is time to try to beat what I have. I am going to move my two center stacked DR's to my surrounds to see how much better they sound for surrounds and try out dual DR-250's as my center(deltalites) and single DR-250's as mains. If this works out I will build 3 Titan 48's for the single DR-250's as fronts and compare DR-250/T48 combo vs Dual stacked DR-250's. I remember the DR-200/T-39 combo sounding great.
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post #1105 of 1145 Old 12-21-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yup, amp is still kicking and sounding great!
Since now I know how little THD I have and how great this sounds it is time to try to beat what I have. I am going to move my two center stacked DR's to my surrounds to see how much better they sound for surrounds and try out dual DR-250's as my center(deltalites) and single DR-250's as mains. If this works out I will build 3 Titan 48's for the single DR-250's as fronts and compare DR-250/T48 combo vs Dual stacked DR-250's. I remember the DR-200/T-39 combo sounding great.

Nice I bet you see an improvement. If thats possible lol. 3 Titan 48's would be so incredible but I am very curios to see your impressions on the DR-250/Titan48 combo vs the Dual stacked DR-250s.

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post #1106 of 1145 Old 12-21-2012, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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We will see, I have a feeling I will end up with dual stacked DR-250/t-48 fronts and DR-250/t-39 rears!
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post #1107 of 1145 Old 12-21-2012, 04:08 PM
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Mk's at it again!!!





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post #1108 of 1145 Old 12-21-2012, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I am selling my w8's. I have 6 DR-250's so plenty for 5.1 for now. I need 3 T-48's right now for the front stage. So when I am done for now I will have two mains with DR-250 tops and T-48 bottoms and my two surrounds will have DR-250 tops and T-39 bottoms. My center will have dual stacked DR-250's and T-48 bottom. So my center and surrounds will be upgraded but the question is the mains, if not as good I will just add another DR-250 and then I know for sure it will be an upgrade! Right now my theater has never sound better for music and movies, ever!
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post #1109 of 1145 Old 12-22-2012, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am selling my w8's. I have 6 DR-250's so plenty for 5.1 for now. I need 3 T-48's right now for the front stage. So when I am done for now I will have two mains with DR-250 tops and T-48 bottoms and my two surrounds will have DR-250 tops and T-39 bottoms. My center will have dual stacked DR-250's and T-48 bottom. So my center and surrounds will be upgraded but the question is the mains, if not as good I will just add another DR-250 and then I know for sure it will be an upgrade! Right now my theater has never sound better for music and movies, ever!

Its a win win situation!!

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post #1110 of 1145 Old 12-22-2012, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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My friends think adding more is nuts because it really sounds great. The funny thing is during THD measuring I had less THD at 80-200hz than 1k-8k but both low. Why would adding much more 80-300hz be better? THD will go down but it is So low now, but I know the Midbass punch will go up. Will the THD go up too high without the extra DR-250 on the mains? I doubt I would notice it at my levels.
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