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post #1 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE: 01/07/2014

 

Here are the updated results so people can just find them on page one.  Since this I have tried DR-200 and DR-250 arrays(dual stacks) with better low end and midbass than a single.  This also makes it very important to tame the highs from 32 to 40 tweeters which can become overwhelming.  They also have a huge coverage being dual stacked so now if you are sitting or standing it does not matter.  I ahve also built an eD DIY sub system which has more low end naturally than the CHT system but less midbass naturally.  With EQ I can make these sound nearly identical so I would chose which ever you can get cheaper but with eD no more go with DIY or CHT. 

 

Ok guys since my shootout is over I just wanted to rank them from 1 on down and I will include some older speakers since I had them head to head against my 5000's before.
1. Dual stacked DR-250's($650)

2. Dual stacked DR-200's($600)

3. DR-250's($350)
4. DR-200's($300)
5. JBL 4675($2500)
6. JBL 3722N($750)
7. eD cinema 12 upgraded($850)
8/9. JTR triple 8 sealed($1200)
9/8. CHT SHO-10's($350)
10. JTR triple 8 originals($800)
11. M&K S-5000's($1299)
12. KL-650's($1499)
13. Triad in room LCR gold classics($1200)

 

Added: SEOS Fusion pure 10-I would rank the highs 5 and the woofer with the SHO-10.  So overall you can switch it out with either the 888LP, eD cinema, or SHO-10.  If the SEOS had the 12 inch driver of the eD I would rank it 7!  If it had the dual 2226's I would rank it 4!  Yes, I like the SEOS WG and CD very much. 

 

Now this is my preference for reference level movie watching where I value big dynamic sound with detail over everything else. Many of the speakers had better highs than the JBLs but their big dynamic sound was just hard to ignore! Now their lack luster highs do make them not as good for music and I will rate them for music now. I am talking 100 dBs for music because above that the triads would fall apart which means 112 dBs at the speaker.
 

1. Dual stacked DR-250's

2. Dual stacked DR-200's

3. DR-250's
4. DR-200's
5. CHT SHO-10

6. triads
7. JTR sealed triple 8's
8. eD cinema 12 upgraded
9. M&K S-5000
10. JTR original triple 8
11. JBL 4675
12. JBL 3722n
13. Klipsch KL-650

I am now focusing my energy on subs again and will be trying out a couple different subs to dethrone my current system. My current system is my favorite and having EQ and much better measuring gear helped get a proper response and much more low end so I did not have the chance to compare my eD system using the same. As of right now I will rank my favorite sub systems I have owned but know that my most recent setup has the flattest response, deepest, with the most power. I could have changed my mine with the same equipment on my older subs and why I will try some other stuff out. Anyways here we go.

 

1. Added new, 8x18 ficar audio IB for the easy win!

1. eD 12x12 sealed system(LT engaged)($4200)
2. 8x18 sealed CHT(LT engaged)($2800)
3. Dual Danley DTS-10's($2000)
4. 8x18 eD sealed($2000)
5. 4 Cinema F-20's($1200)
6. 4 eD LLT sonos($1000)
7. Dual folded horn 18 pro subs($700)
8. Dual double 18 vented pro subs($1000)
9. SVS 16-46 CS plus subs($3600)
10. Klipsch THX ultra 2 subs($3000)
11. SVS PB2plus($1200)
12. M&K MX-5000's($4999)

I know I could have done more with the eD sealed system with my EQ and such so now I have different subs coming to try out! BTW, it will be sealed from now on as I get the widest bandwidth as I am flat from 7-200hz with my system now so I won't chance losing the bandwidth. The Danley's did some awesome bass waves that none ever did until last night when I boosted my 10-20hz region and now I get the same effect. If the eD system did the same thing it would have been ranked higher because it did more tactile and visceral effects than the DTS-10's but not that pulse which was very cool and shocking. They were the only subs to ever do it until I figured out where it was happening so I am sure I could do it with the eD system. BTW the top 5 systems I ranked are much better than the bottom, not even close!Hey guys, I am testing 5-6 different pairs or sets of 3 speakers to see which one works best in my theater. My room is 21 x 15 x 7, sealed, 4 concrete walls and floor, and the room is well treated. To give one an idea that thinks it is an easy room for subs due to the size I lose 12 db's at my LP from the speakers. Baiscally I need 117 db's of clean spl at the speakers for me to hit reference levels at my LP. I already started to talk about this in the DIY forum in my F-20 thread. I am buying mostly used and some new speakers to compete and nothing too expensive or it defeats the purpose. The speakers I am going to test are:

1. Triads In room Golds- these are the smaller, older versions
2. M&K S-5000's
3. BFM DR-200's
4. JTR Triple 8(not sure on sealed or vented as I have not ordered them yet)
5. CHT Sho-10's

I will measure each response without EQ and give my impressions and then I will EQ them within +/- 3-5 db's and then listen to them. They will all be level matched and run with my 4 F-20's at a flat calibration. I will take pics as well. I have been listening to the M&K's and Triads for a week now. I wanted to test just how sensitive the speakers are when playing music and here is what I have done so far. I calibrated each speaker to 75 db's including the sub. I played a song and turned it up until it hit 100 db's peaks at the most. I used my RS digital meter set to fast, A weighting, and Max. The Triads needed 0 db's on the Master volume to hit 100 db's. The M&K's needed -5 db's on the MV, and the DR's needed -21dbs to hit 100 db's. The Triads sensitvity rating is 90 db's, the M&K's are 93dbs, and the DR's are 104 db's. You can see during music playback the DR's are even more sensitive.

I listened to the first 3 speakers with no EQ and the DR's need to break in. I don't expect the DRs's to sound great compared to the others as it needs more EQ to sound good. Well, The M&K's and Triads sound really close. The M&K's vocals are more forward and slightly rougher than the Triads. The Triads had a smoother sound and more feeling. The M&K's are more dynamic and can play louder. This is a preference for people as they are close. Again, this is without EQ, so I will see which I like better once I put them on the same playing field. As for the DR's, well, I had them built for me and they are OK looking. The guy was sloppy on gluing the tweeter array and the paint is thin in some places. I would send them back for the money based on finish. The Triads are the best built speakers so far as finish and solid feel goes. The DR's have some much potential that I hope EQing and break in makes them sound better. They sound huge, play louder than anyone can stand, and have tons of palpability or feeling. The problem with them for now is that they sound rough on the vocals. Put it this way, if I can get them remotely close to the M&K's or Triads they will blow them all away, including the JBL's. They are so dynamic and effortless but like I said, to rough for now. This is just the beginning. Here are some Pics and graphs.

The front stage. These are the M&K's. I have not taken a picture of the others in place yet.



Their unEQ'd response



The Triads look like this



Their Response



I don't have pics yet of the DR's but I will

Response



You can see why 3 out of 3 people picked the M&K's so far, the Triads are very close and I like their feeling and smoothness better, I mean they sound softer. The DR's sound the roughest or hardest, like their is and edge to a piano. Here are more random pics



M&K's without grill(how they are behind the screen)



M&K vs Triad



My rack



DR's almost completed



I have much more to come. These are replacing my JBL's which were my reference standard. I like the sound from the M&K's and Triads better but the JBL's midbass and big sound was better. I am hoping to combine both with the DR's.

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post #2 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 09:08 AM
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Seen the new eD cinema series? They look interesting.

And did something happen to the monster jbl's?
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post #3 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 09:10 AM
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Thanks for sharing the comparo MK, it looks like you're taking the time to do it right. It's a lot of work. I am looking forward to your impressions!

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post #4 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I am calling both eD, CHT, and JTR today to see what I can get and when. If too long then I will just not use them.
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post #5 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 11:55 AM
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Subscribed!!!

The DRs high end will be HIGHLY directional in the vertical plane above 10kHz, due to the vertically arrayed tweeters. Careful aiming will be necessary.

The dip the DRs suffer from around 700-2500Hz may be also due tonarrowing directivity, in this case of the main horn. The main horn crosses to the piezos around 2kHz, IIRC. the main horn should become more directional as frequency rises, mimicking a direct radiator until the cross to the piezos, which should widen the horizontal pattern again, the vertical pattern will remain narrow. The good thing is, those dips do not pose as much of a problem since you have so much sensitivity to begin with.....and the vertical directivity issue will not be as much of a problem if aimed properly at the seats...

JSS
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post #6 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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OK guys, I just placed an order for the new eD speakers and I placed an order for the new JTR triple 8 sealed speakers with 2 powered Captivator 1000's. I also am buying the new SHO-10's when CHT gets them.

So the speakers are:
1. Older Triads in room golds
2. M&K S-5000's
3. BFM DR-200's
4. eD Cinema 12(not what they are called)
5. CHT Sho-10's
6. JTR triple 8(sealed)

I will also compare my F-20's to the dual Cap 1000's.

Any help will be appreciated with EQ or whatever. My new Ada processor just came in so I will be EQing these shortly once I figure how to use.
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post #7 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 12:18 PM
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What kind of EQ is the ADA using, parametric?

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
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post #8 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 12:59 PM
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that's quite a line up mk!
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Listen. It's All Good.
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post #9 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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The Ada uses a parametric EQ with 11 bands per channel, I think. I know for sure it is on every channel and parametric.
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post #10 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 01:39 PM
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Mk,

Its always back to the ADA gear, huh? Were you the one that picked up that MPA-500 off ebay? I'm still loving the PTM-1260 that you recommended. Its driving two big passive subs and my power hungry front channels very well. How does the Cinema Rhapsody sound? I'm interested to hear how much improvement the Suite 7.1HD provides.
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post #11 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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it will provide smoother vocals and much better surround steering and much more surround activity. I know because this will be my second time using it. I just like Ada gear, the looks, build, and sound.
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post #12 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 01:49 PM
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You had me at DR-200.
Subscribed.

Any chance you could list the MSRP next to each of the speakers?
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post #13 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Some used some new. I have to list MSRP's so here we go.

CHT's are $398 or something
eD are $400+
DR's range from DIY $300 to $1000 each made out of plexiglass
JTR's are $1099 each
triads were $1400
M&K's were $1299
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post #14 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 02:01 PM
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The dr-200's look very interesting. Very efficient, but the bottom end concerns me. Looks like they start their roll off around 150 hz.

You should negotiate overnight shipping for all of them so we could have you opinions by Monday
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post #15 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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All the speakers are still being built so these 3 will have to do for now. By then I will have one speaker set remaining as my favorite. The BFM's blend with my subs at 80hz just fine in my room. The BFM's are the most real sensitive speakers I have owned so far. Meaning during music and not specs.
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post #16 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The BFM's are the most real sensitive speakers I have owned so far. Meaning during music and not specs.

Including the jbl's?
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post #17 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Including the jbl's?

Yes, I had to turn them way down to hit 100 db's at the seats during music. Now this is based on one song but I will do much more testing. They were really rough sounding at first but I will throw some loud movies at them to loosen them up. I will EQ them too. I need too. Let me find the response of my JBL's from before to throw in the mix.
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post #18 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Here was a response from the JBL speakers and subs. 1/3 octave smoothed and Eq'd.

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post #19 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 03:07 PM
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How long before you get something from Seaton?

If I had a dedicated room and deep pockets, that's what I would pick.
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Quote:
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How long before you get something from Seaton?

If I had a dedicated room and deep pockets, that's what I would pick.

Not yet.
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post #21 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 03:40 PM
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Awesome stuff MK!

I recently bought 3 sealed T8s myself and love them. The small size made them fit in my small/limited space room really well and they are very dynamic in my little room. Eventhough I love then, I'd still like to see how you think they compare to some of these others on this list.

Again, Truly Awesome stuff!

Did you get any timeframes on delivery for any of these speakers?

Thx,
Claude
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post #22 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 03:43 PM
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MK, why do all of the speakers seem to drop off so much at either 7 or 8K?
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post #23 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 03:47 PM
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Reason for buying the Captivator 1000 rather than Passive Captivators and running them with any old amp you have lying around? I'm sure you know this, but the drivers are not the same between the Captivator 1000 and the typical standard Captivator or Captivator pro.

Make sure and have some buddies over to demo with you....That's too much fun to not share in person!

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post #24 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 03:54 PM
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What's your timeframe for getting this comparison completed? Will you have all the speakers at the same time?

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post #25 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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My response falls off due to the rs digital meter. I chose the 1000's is because I don't have any amps lying around and certainly not 1000 watts. Powering a cap with ep 2500 is the same as using the dsp 1000's.
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post #26 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 04:51 PM
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This looks fun can't wait to see what you find. Considering I have your old pair of M&K 5000 I am hoping they stack up well!

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I am really looking forward to this shootout. I have been thinking about building the 4pi speakers for a while now but just don't have the money right now to build 3 of them the way I want to(all the upgrades). The new ED speakers look great and have a nice price on them, looking forward to your impressions.

I will be in touch after the weekend once my 2 F20s are built about the amp
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post #28 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

MK, why do all of the speakers seem to drop off so much at either 7 or 8K?

He's using a Radio Shack spl meter which doesn't do much above those frequencies.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #29 of 1145 Old 08-11-2011, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

He's using a Radio Shack spl meter which doesn't do much above those frequencies.

MK - If this is true, and you want to do the measurement portion of this shootout properly, you really need a calibrated mic. You can get one for $85 from here: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...behringer.html

Get the "basic plus" model. The "plus" model comes with calibration files for the mic pointed forward and tip-up. I find the tip-up mic orientation gives the most accurate HF measurements.

You'll also need a mic preamp. This M-Audio Mobile Pre is inexpensive and accurate: http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Mobile...3125252&sr=8-4

Even with a generic cal file for the Rat Shack SPL meter, there is so much variance between production runs of the meter, that you really don't know what the result is going to be.

Hope that helps, good luck and have fun in your testing!
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post #30 of 1145 Old 08-12-2011, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post


MK - If this is true, and you want to do the measurement portion of this shootout properly, you really need a calibrated mic. You can get one for $85 from here: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...behringer.html

Get the "basic plus" model. The "plus" model comes with calibration files for the mic pointed forward and tip-up. I find the tip-up mic orientation gives the most accurate HF measurements.

You'll also need a mic preamp. This M-Audio Mobile Pre is inexpensive and accurate: http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Mobile...3125252&sr=8-4

Even with a generic cal file for the Rat Shack SPL meter, there is so much variance between production runs of the meter, that you really don't know what the result is going to be.

Hope that helps, good luck and have fun in your testing!

Or just buy Omnimic . It's as simple as REW with the rat shack meter, but accurate.

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JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
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