Hyperbole...CA versus Bose! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Cambridge Audio Minx speaker and Balanced Mode Radiator drivers

versus

Bose Twiddler technology

While Bose is clearly the king of audio hyperbole, with fancy terms like Articulated Array® speaker design and Stereo Everywhere® speaker performance...and most of this "technology" makes very little sense in terms of physics.

In that vein, I am a bit confused by how the CA BMR drivers are suppose to work to "replicate the sound" of larger drivers and produce a full range sound!?

...and how the Bose Twiddlers are suppose to produce midrange and high freq without a "tweeter". Both systems are single midrange drivers with no tweeters!

Are we just being fed company hyperbole, or am I missing something?

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post #2 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Are we just being fed company hyperbole, or am I missing something?

You probably already know the answer(s).
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post #3 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 08:33 AM
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The BMR drivers do appear to be much better than what Bose uses, so one would expect them to sound better. But the Cambridge ad copy doesn't suffer from any shortage of hype either.

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post #4 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

In that vein, I am a bit confused by how the CA BMR drivers are suppose to work to "replicate the sound" of larger drivers and produce a full range sound!?

I guess it depends on which 'full range' driver you are comparing your product to. Bose? - I suppose.

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post #5 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Are we just being fed company hyperbole, or am I missing something?

Puffery as a legal term refers to promotional statements and claims that
express subjective rather than objective views, which no "reasonable person"
would take literally. Puffery serves to "puff up" an exaggerated image of
what is being described and is especially featured in testimonials.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery
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post #6 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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You are right, I suspect I know the answer...but on the other hand, I didn't pay enough attention whan I was enrolled in College Physics. Just wondering if anyone could tell me some reason, in terms of Physics or just audio common sense, why either of these "technologies" would be capable of doing anything close to what is claimed by CA or Bose?
A hear there is new bottled water with "Enhanced wetness" technology...better make sure and get some!

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post #7 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 08:49 AM
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Minx is kind of a dumb ass name. Something I'd expect if Justin Bieber were marketing speakers to pre-teen girls.

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post #8 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Chu, if you have seen their website, they are definately targeting males with the Minx girl photos!? Man... a speaker sounds great when there is a half naked woman next to it!

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post #9 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 09:20 AM
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Nahhhh...it's a chick speaker.

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post #10 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Never can figure out women...sometimes size matters, other times not. Sheesh, make up your mind!

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post #11 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

You are right, I suspect I know the answer...but on the other hand, I didn't pay enough attention whan I was enrolled in College Physics. Just wondering if anyone could tell me some reason, in terms of Physics or just audio common sense, why either of these "technologies" would be capable of doing anything close to what is claimed by CA or Bose?!

They can't. And you're correct... pay more attention and/or let common sense kick in.
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post #12 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Nahhhh...it's a chick speaker.

I call fowl!
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post #13 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 01:54 PM
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Foal?
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post #14 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

Foal?

Yes, I hear that Bose have a foal sound.
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post #15 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

They can't. And you're correct... pay more attention and/or let common sense kick in.

You're such a little minx!

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post #16 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Just wondering if anyone could tell me some reason, in terms of Physics or just audio common sense, why either of these "technologies" would be capable of doing anything close to what is claimed by CA or Bose?

They can't, period. For adequate low frequency output a driver needs large displacement. For adequate high frequency dispersion the driver must have a small radiating area. You can't get both from the same driver. Claims to the contrary are just that, claims. And as neither of these companies provides supporting data they're unfounded claims at that.

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post #17 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

They can't, period. For adequate low frequency output a driver needs large displacement. For adequate high frequency dispersion the driver must have a small radiating area. You can't get both from the same driver. Claims to the contrary are just that, claims. And as neither of these companies provides supporting data they're unfounded claims at that.

Oh, Bill, you just wish that you could break the physical laws like they can. You are jealous that Bose can make a THT that's the size of a shoe box.

Psst... I think they use Wonkavision, but don't quote me on that!

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post #18 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 03:06 PM
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Not full range to me
http://www.hometheater.com/content/c...-labs-measures

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post #19 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

You're such a little minx!

No. That was Fawn. She died in a kiln accident.
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post #20 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 05:57 PM
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No. That was Fawn. She died in a kiln accident.

Heard the kiln accident happened when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
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post #21 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Yea, but I hear if you buy Bose, you get a free bowl of soup. Looks good on you though....

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post #22 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 07:35 PM
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There is some unique science behind the BMR

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/ufi-ucube-usb-powered-computer-speakers View Post


Balanced Mode Radiator (BMR) speakers are similar to regular cone speakers in that they have a voice coil suspended in a magnetic field provided by a permanent magnet. Unlike a cone speaker, the BMR uses a stiff planar surface as its radiator. The mechanical attachment of the voice coil to the driver surface is done such that it is attached at the point of the first primary modal oscillation, and small weights are added to the rear surface of the stiff diaphragm to balance its moments (hence, "balanced" mode radiator) and control the dynamic performance of the diaphragm. At low frequencies, the surface simply pistons in and out; at higher frequencies the surface bends, and sound begins to appear to radiate from closer to the center of the diaphragm.

The result is a single speaker that doesn't suffer from "beaming" as the frequency increases. BMR speakers look more like a point source over their operating range than traditional cone speakers, and, as a result, a single driver can deliver what previously would have needed a cone and tweeter drivers and crossover. BMR drivers, therefore, deliver both wide frequency range and wide dispersion.

So while they aren't ever going to be full range, in theory they are going to sound better than what you get from a Bose cube

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post #23 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 07:40 PM
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Do they provide measurements to support the propoganda?

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post #24 of 32 Old 11-16-2011, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

Not full range to me
http://www.hometheater.com/content/c...-labs-measures

That measurement don't look too bad. The Bose has a big gap at 150 to 200 hz and the top is rolled off 15k or something
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post #25 of 32 Old 11-17-2011, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I have seen the freq response of the Aucoustimas and the Minix kicks that of the Bose for "not falling below" and more "flat"...but the claim that CA makes is that the small BMR drivers sounds like a bigger driver. Since the BMR drivers are 3 inches, should they be comparing the freq response of the BMR to a bigger driver?

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post #26 of 32 Old 11-17-2011, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

I have seen the freq response of the Aucoustimas and the Minix kicks that of the Bose for "not falling below" and more "flat"...but the claim that CA makes is that the small BMR drivers sounds like a bigger driver. Since the BMR drivers are 3 inches, should they be comparing the freq response of the BMR to a bigger driver?

Axial frequency response is only 1/3 of the equation. In the highs off-axis response is critical, in the lows the displacement is. Flat response to 12kHz isn't of much use if you can't hear that 12kHz at 30 degrees, nor is flat response down to 120Hz if the driver lacks the displacement to give more than 90dB levels.

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post #27 of 32 Old 11-17-2011, 09:22 AM
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Personally I would not use drivers like these in my main system but I think larger drivers would work out O.K. for a secondary casual system, like the NOS (new old stock) Radio Shack 5.25" "full range" drivers I have been playing around with. Highs are a bit muted but are pretty smooth and midbass is decent and IMO like the FR drivers in better table radios like those from Tivoli and Boston Acoustics, while I believe they are not highly accurate they are easy to listen to for a long time.

I can see why there is a whole area of DIY speaker building dedicated to building FR-based speaker systems, using drivers from three inches all the way up to eight(!) inches, though 4 and 5 inches seems to be the "sweet spot" for most FR fans since these can produce acceptable bass if the proper enclosure is utilized. The other signficant reason FRs are favored is the fact there is no crossover which, if it is not very carefully designed, can cause audible sonic artifacts.

For a lot of FR fans though, they use a subwoofer to augment the lowest bass and since the xover does not occur in the midrange spectrum, that avoids affecting those important frequencies. And for larger FR drivers, many use a "helper" tweeter, usually crossed over way up at 8 or 10kHz again avoiding the midrange band. A simple 6dB per octave xover is usually used at such a high frequency, commonly in the form of one capacitor to minimise xover artifacts.

Fostex is a very popular brand of FR drivers.

Parts-Express sells many FRs, including budget stuff like this 8" driver many pair with a inexpensive soft-dome tweeter.
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post #28 of 32 Old 11-17-2011, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Well...Bill I agree. But many freq responses plots are from a single listening position, so...

But my original point was, every company uses some form of meaningless hyperbole to sell their products. Bose uses a more technical terminology and patented technologies to convince people that their speakers can do things they cannot do. However, CA seems to lay on some pretty impressive technical BS as well. I just wanted to make sure that some of you guys who spend more time than me on "audio science" (I am a Biologist) than me, well, you could tell me if I was missing something or it was a claim that was too good to be true.

You gotta admit "Balanced Mode Radiator" does sound pretty impressive! However, I think Articulated Array speaker still wins....

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post #29 of 32 Old 11-17-2011, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

You gotta admit "Balanced Mode Radiator" does sound pretty impressive! However, I think Articulated Array speaker still wins....

BMR is a technology that Cambridge licensed from HiWave who owns the patent

http://www.hi-wave.com/products/audi...r_products.php

So you can blame Hiwave for their impressive sounding name, not Cambridge Audio.

You can buy their drivers for your own DIY project
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards...20Technologies

Naim also uses a BMR driver and provides some analysis/measurements of the behavior of this driver and how it works.

http://www.music-line.biz/cms/filead...ovator_bmr.pdf

Personally I think comparing Bose cube drivers to a BMR driver is unfair. BMR is a new type of hybrid driver and BMR is actually an accurate description of how it works.

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post #30 of 32 Old 11-17-2011, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

was a claim that was too good to be true.

...

It is. Better than the Bose drivers yes, perhaps by a wide margin, but still no three inch driver has the dispersion of a 1/2 inch dome or the output of a six inch midbass.

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