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post #1 of 31 Old 11-19-2011, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
I need to replace a resistor on the crossover of my Infinity Beta 40.

The technical manual gives this reference : 2.7 Ohm 10W

And written on the resistor : 10W2.7 Ohm FJ

Question:
  • Do I need a 10W2.7 resistor with this "FJ" code or any 10W2.7 resistor will be OK?
  • Does it have to be ceramic Cement Power Resistor? Mine is similar to the one on the image bellow.
Thanks.

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post #2 of 31 Old 11-19-2011, 01:38 PM
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It should be a resistor intended for crossover use, ie., low inductance (most are advertised as 'non-inductive', but that's not actually the case). A higher power rating is OK, lower is not, the resistance must be the same.

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post #3 of 31 Old 11-19-2011, 06:55 PM
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What happened to the resistor that made it fail?

Regards,
Charlie

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post #4 of 31 Old 11-20-2011, 09:46 AM
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USING A HIGHER POWER REPLACEMENT IS A VERY VERY BAD IDEA!!

A resistor usually fails for one of two reasons;

1) because the speaker is subjected to more power than it can handle for a prolonged period of time, and the resistor fails because the designer intended it to fail before the speaker driver coil and act as a protective device.

2) this type of resistor can change in value over time, and when its value goes up it progressively goes even higher and overheats until it fails.

In any case, ALWAYS replace it with an exact replacement. If you use a higher wattage, it will no longer protect the speaker, and the voice coil will burn out before the resistor will. Resistors ARE cheaper to replace than speakers...lol.

Keep in mind that an amplifier that is rated for 100 watts (this is with low distortion), as an example, CAN and WILL put out 200-300 watts when it is driven to high distortion levels.

When an amplifier is driven to a level where it is distorting significantly, the speakers are probably being subjected to more continuous power than is safe for them, so use your head and TURN IT DOWN...duhhhhhh.

(the FJ code is confusing; it should have one or the other...F indicates a +/- 1% tolerance of the R value, while J indicates +/- 5%....?????)





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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

What happened to the resistor that made it fail?

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post #5 of 31 Old 11-20-2011, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post


In any case, ALWAYS replace it with an exact replacement. If you use a higher wattage, it will no longer protect the speaker, and the voice coil will burn out before the resistor will.

Resistors should not be used in crossovers as fuses, only for padding, so if properly employed there's no reason not to use a higher power value, other than it may cost more. As to why this resistor blew the OP hasn't yet said.

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post #6 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 01:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chashint View Post

What happened to the resistor that made it fail?

I've just bought these Alpha 40 second hand... The seller told me that booth tweeters need to be replaced... but after examination I found the the 10W2.7 resistors are not working...

HK in Paris told me that they only sell the whole crossover for 18 euros.
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post #7 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

USING A HIGHER POWER REPLACEMENT IS A VERY VERY BAD IDEA!!

A resistor usually fails for one of two reasons;

1) because the speaker is subjected to more power than it can handle for a prolonged period of time, and the resistor fails because the designer intended it to fail before the speaker driver coil and act as a protective device.

2) this type of resistor can change in value over time, and when its value goes up it progressively goes even higher and overheats until it fails.

In any case, ALWAYS replace it with an exact replacement. If you use a higher wattage, it will no longer protect the speaker, and the voice coil will burn out before the resistor will. Resistors ARE cheaper to replace than speakers...lol.

Keep in mind that an amplifier that is rated for 100 watts (this is with low distortion), as an example, CAN and WILL put out 200-300 watts when it is driven to high distortion levels.

When an amplifier is driven to a level where it is distorting significantly, the speakers are probably being subjected to more continuous power than is safe for them, so use your head and TURN IT DOWN...duhhhhhh.

(the FJ code is confusing; it should have one or the other...F indicates a +/- 1% tolerance of the R value, while J indicates +/- 5%....?????)

I have never seen a resistor used as a protecion device. Not saying that it is not done-but resistors don't fail at a regular point like a fuse. So trying to use it as a fuse is not very reliable.

A fuse has a very low time constant with its value. A 25 watt resistor has a much much longer time constant-so it can take lots more than its rated power for short periods of time, or at rated power for a pretty long (musically) time. I would argue that using a resistor as a fuse is bad design in loudspeakers. In other designs with smaller power resistors this is pretty common.

Not all resistors are used as a pad or are in series with a loudspeaker driver.

Very often they are used as a Q control for a bandpass filter.

If the resistor is open becuase of power-I see no problem with replacing it with a larger value.

If it failed because it just "broke" (yes it happens), then simply replace it with the same value.

Sorry-but I disagree with you on this.

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post #8 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 04:33 AM
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My first thought on seeing the crossover is how deficient it looks. I wouldn't use the electrolytic caps or such a low power resister. As said above, a resister doesn't make a good fuse. Also, a non-inductive resister would be better with a higher power rating. It amazes me how poor some big name speaker's crossovers are.
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post #9 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

I have never seen a resistor used as a protecion device. Not saying that it is not done-but resistors don't fail at a regular point like a fuse. So trying to use it as a fuse is not very reliable.
.

More significant is that it's not safe, as the heat required to blow the resistor could result in a fire.

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post #10 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 07:26 AM
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The FACT is that resistors are chosen that have a value that will fail before the tweeter.

This is standard industry practice. Fuses are not used because they would blow too easily on peaks. Tweeters don't blow unless their voice coil is overdriven for at least several seconds or longer, so a resistor is a better choice for protection and that IS the way it is normally engineered, whether you believe it or not.

An engineer I know at JBL told me that this is the way the engineers in the industry do it, and it has been standard practice to do it that way since at least the 1950s.

A few manufacturers, such as Vandersteen, put in a slow-heating circuit-breaker that shows a light on the front of the speaker when it cuts out, and after a few minutes will self-reset. This is costly, so only some high-priced speakers have it.

You guys that want to replace those resistors with higher-wattage ones deserve what you get; you have been warned.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink....
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post #11 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

I have never seen a resistor used as a protecion device. Not saying that it is not done-but resistors don't fail at a regular point like a fuse. So trying to use it as a fuse is not very reliable.

A fuse has a very low time constant with its value. A 25 watt resistor has a much much longer time constant-so it can take lots more than its rated power for short periods of time, or at rated power for a pretty long (musically) time. I would argue that using a resistor as a fuse is bad design in loudspeakers. In other designs with smaller power resistors this is pretty common.

Not all resistors are used as a pad or are in series with a loudspeaker driver.

Very often they are used as a Q control for a bandpass filter.

If the resistor is open becuase of power-I see no problem with replacing it with a larger value.

If it failed because it just "broke" (yes it happens), then simply replace it with the same value.

Sorry-but I disagree with you on this.

If you have never seen a resistor used as a protection device, that shows that you are not an experienced technician; it is a very common practice.

In TV sets, it has been common practice for many many years to have a "sacrificial" resistor in series with the tube or transistor that drives the horizontal output circuit to blow out before the active device or deflection coil burns out. This is effectively used as a "fuse" in the circuit.

In all vacuum-tube power amplifiers, a cathode resistor is used whose power rating is chosen so that it will fail before the power tube melts down in case of loss of bias or other problems (there are at least a dozen manufacturers still making high-end tube amplifiers).

These are just two examples; there are many other cases where this is done.

The failure mode of a resistor is very reliable and predictable. Resistor data sheets show graphs of the failure time for any given percentage of overload. The fact that it takes longer to fail than a fuse is precisely the point; that is the desired characteristic the engineer is putting into the circuit.

Ignorance is not a sin; choosing to reject the truth is unwise.
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post #12 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Dayton Audio DNR-2.7 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
(http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...-resistor.html)

Will this resistor from Dayton do the job?

Tolerance ± 5%
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post #13 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 08:06 AM
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If it has the same resistance and power rating as the original, it should be perfect for the job. Power resistors with a tolerance tighter than 5% are hard to find and expensive, and probably not needed in this case anyway.


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Originally Posted by badrday View Post

Dayton Audio DNR-2.7 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
(http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...-resistor.html)

Will this resistor from Dayton do the job?

Tolerance ± 5%

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post #14 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you have never seen a resistor used as a protection device, that shows that you are not an experienced technician

You obviously have no clue who you are jousting with here. A word to the wise, before entering a ring know your opponent's record. And if you're a featherweight reconsider taking on a heavyweight.

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post #15 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 10:42 AM
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I will stand by my statement exactly as you quoted it.

That statement, incidentally, was a direct response to IvanBeaver, NOT to you, so I am confused why you seem to think it pertains to YOU in any way! ( HE said..."I have never seen a resistor used as a protection device" and that was my reponse to HIM!!!...not YOU). In looking back at the postings, I don't see any indication that there is any "jousting" taking place, in any case; if there is some difference of opinion, let's not get dramatic about it.

I was an electronics technician for 12 years or so and an electronics professor for over 30, and my statements demonstrate that I know precisely what I am talking about. They are factual, and will stand on their own merit.

You either know, or you don't.

I have also, incidentally been an audiophile for over 50 years; I designed and built my own speakers and amplifiers from scratch starting in 1960 (some of them even worked pretty well...lol).

Trying to create sort of personal contest between us is immature and silly in any case; I certainly have no intention of lowering myself to that level, no matter how much you puff your chest.






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You obviously have no clue who you are jousting with here. A word to the wise, before entering a ring know your opponent's record. And if you're a featherweight reconsider taking on a heavyweight.

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post #16 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

That statement, incidentally, was a direct response to IvanBeaver, NOT to you, so I am confused why you seem to think it pertains to YOU in any way!

I never said I did. It's obvious you were dissing Ivan.
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I was an electronics technician for 12 years or so and an electronics professor for over 30,

That doesn't mean you were any good at it. Ivan's standing in the audio industry, OTOH, is well known, so much so that if you don't know who he is one must deduce that you're not a member of the professional audio community.
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I have also, incidentally been an audiophile for over 50 years;

Ah, that explains it.

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post #17 of 31 Old 11-21-2011, 11:59 AM
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If you understood that all along, I can't understand why you alleged that I was "jousting" with you. It seems like a rather dramatic overreaction to almost nothing.

If you are implying that's it's a crime of some sort to be an audiophile (by which I mean the love of music and its accurate reproduction), then I stand convicted; guilty and proud of it.

Based on your website, it's clear that you will never be convicted of any such thing; what a junk collection; second-rate copies of old designs and 3rd-rate drivers to boot. I was making better speakers before I was 20 years old, but I was never dumb enough to delude myself into thinking I was a "speaker designer". You need to clean out your garage and quit kidding yourself.

When you can get a real job that pays you real money with a real company where you actually design and produce real speakers commercially that people pay real money for, you will have a legitimate reason to call yourself a speaker designer; until then you are just puffing your chest in a cold strong wind and there is no one to listen.

As for Ivan's "standing in the audio community", he is apparently a technician at a company that installs audio equipment. I know many nice people like that; they used to be my students before I helped them to get their degree and their FCC license and they went to work. Is that supposed to make some huge impression on me (or anyone else)?

In any case, I have no way to judge anyone by their alleged "standing" anywhere; I just read their words and see if they make sense or not. I don't confuse "professional" with "competent" either. I think you may have a problem there.






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I never said I did. It's obvious you were dissing Ivan.
That doesn't mean you were any good at it. Ivan's standing in the audio industry, OTOH, is well known, so much so that if you don't know who he is one must deduce that you're not a member of the professional audio community.
Ah, that explains it.

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post #18 of 31 Old 11-23-2011, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you have never seen a resistor used as a protection device, that shows that you are not an experienced technician; it is a very common practice.

.

If you had actually READ the post that I made (and you quoted), I did state that resistors are used as current limitng devies in other pieces of equipment-just not loudspeakers.

I have lots of experience with both of those.

I still stay by the fact that I have never seen a resistor used in place of a fuse in a loudspeaker. You claim that this is "standard practice" in loudspeakers.

WOuld you care to point to a particular design that is designed that way? Or once again I ask for any sort of documentation that states this. Besides yourself.

simply stating it as fact is not good enough. Facts are easily backed up-I am just asking for some evidence of your claim.

As you can tell from other posts-I am not alone in my thinking on this subject.

The reasons resisors are used in loudspeakers is to reduce the sensitivity of the higher freq devices to those of the lower sensitivity devices. Or to change the Q of the various tank circuits in the crossover used to eq the loudspeaker.

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post #19 of 31 Old 11-23-2011, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badrday View Post

Dayton Audio DNR-2.7 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
(http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...-resistor.html)

Will this resistor from Dayton do the job?

Tolerance ± 5%

That resistor will work fine.
I would like to know if the speaker works satisfactorily after you replace the resistors.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #20 of 31 Old 11-23-2011, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post


When you can get a real job that pays you real money with a real company where you actually design and produce real speakers commercially that people pay real money for, you will have a legitimate reason to call yourself a speaker designer.

I've been doing exactly that quite successfully for thirty years, thanks.

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post #21 of 31 Old 11-23-2011, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chashint View Post

That resistor will work fine.
I would like to know if the speaker works satisfactorily after you replace the resistors.

I'm waiting for the order to arrive... The ones I've ordered seem to have 2% tolerance (link here).

I'm going to post my feedbacks.
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post #22 of 31 Old 11-24-2011, 05:03 PM
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Oh really? You do get paid a SALARY by a REAL speaker company? I don't think so! You seem to have failed to NAME the employer that EMPLOYS you to design speakers, based on your "qualifications" (which would seem to be nonexistent). I don't think the REAL speaker company that would pay you 2 cents to design anything exists outside of your mind.

A real, competent, speaker designer would certainly make at least $80,000 per year; is your salary over that?

Please name the well-known company that pays you that large salary to design speakers (self-employment certainly does not qualify; a hobo can claim to be a self-employed wine consultant). Infinity? Polk? JBL? PSB? KEF?

What COMPANY (without your name on it) do you design for? Come on; let's hear it? If you are going to label yourself a "speaker designer", let's have some evidence (beyond hot air) to back it up.

The idea that you could actually make a good living selling a few plans and kits out of your garage and calling the whole lash-up a (self-named) speaker company is ludicrous; especially when the stuff on your website is enough to make any REAL speaker designer roll on the floor with helpless laughter. I wonder exactly how you define your alleged "success" as a "speaker designer". I guess if you have a website with your name on it and make a few hundred bucks a month off of it, you call that a success, eh?

The whole thing strains credulity to the breaking point and beyond. Is your day job driving a school bus? Something has to buy the groceries.

Looking at some of the websites where musicians are discussing your "designs???", the general opinion among THEM seems to be the same as mine; tired rehashes of obsolete designs with 3rd-rate drivers which equals 2nd-rate junk and mediocre performance.






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I've been doing exactly that quite successfully for thirty years, thanks.

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post #23 of 31 Old 11-24-2011, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The whole thing strains credulity to the breaking point and beyond.

What strains credulity is your utter lack of knowledge about what you're talking about. Whatever. Life's too short to waste on a moment of it on your sort, and the Ignore List much to easy to employ.

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post #24 of 31 Old 11-24-2011, 06:36 PM
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It seems that the strutting and chest-puffing has ended then.

Since you obviously can provide no evidence that you have any qualifications as a speaker designer, or that you have ever been gainfully employed as one, you really should remove "speaker designer" from your personal self-description on these forums. That would seem like the manly thing to do. It's not nice to make false claims about oneself.


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What strains credulity is your utter lack of knowledge about what you're talking about. Whatever. Life's too short to waste on a moment of it on your sort, and the Ignore List much to easy to employ.

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post #25 of 31 Old 11-24-2011, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Oh really? You do get paid a SALARY by a REAL speaker company? I don't think so! You seem to have failed to NAME the employer that EMPLOYS you to design speakers, based on your "qualifications" (which would seem to be nonexistent). I don't think the REAL speaker company that would pay you 2 cents to design anything exists outside of your mind.

A real, competent, speaker designer would certainly make at least $80,000 per year; is your salary over that?

Please name the well-known company that pays you that large salary to design speakers (self-employment certainly does not qualify; a hobo can claim to be a self-employed wine consultant). Infinity? Polk? JBL? PSB? KEF?

What COMPANY (without your name on it) do you design for? Come on; let's hear it? If you are going to label yourself a "speaker designer", let's have some evidence (beyond hot air) to back it up.

The idea that you could actually make a good living selling a few plans and kits out of your garage and calling the whole lash-up a (self-named) speaker company is ludicrous; especially when the stuff on your website is enough to make any REAL speaker designer roll on the floor with helpless laughter. I wonder exactly how you define your alleged "success" as a "speaker designer". I guess if you have a website with your name on it and make a few hundred bucks a month off of it, you call that a success, eh?

The whole thing strains credulity to the breaking point and beyond. Is your day job driving a school bus? Something has to buy the groceries.

Looking at some of the websites where musicians are discussing your "designs???", the general opinion among THEM seems to be the same as mine; tired rehashes of obsolete designs with 3rd-rate drivers which equals 2nd-rate junk and mediocre performance.

I'm not sure who you are responding to, but if it is me, you have yet again failed to READ.

My employer is listed just below my name (on the left side of the screen)-and always has been.

While not a huge player yet, along with the regular sales-we had something like 17 stadium installs in the last year with many more coming up. Every year since the beginning we have had increasing sales with sales all around the world.

As far as other forums, Prosound web, Sound Forums are two of the larger ones, and our products and myself are well know there.

And yes-I do EARN a decent salery.

Of course we have no idea who you are-as you are hiding behind a made up name.

Others of us don't have anything to hide.

BTW-still waiting for any evidence of any loudspeaker (or paper describing) using a resistor as a fuseable element to protect the drivers.

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post #26 of 31 Old 11-24-2011, 09:17 PM
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Let's stay on topic guys...

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post #27 of 31 Old 11-25-2011, 06:49 AM
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Whoa; Ivan; I must clarify that for you! Some confusion, it would seem.

I was NOT NOT responding to you, but to FITZ.

He IS QUOTED at the bottom of my post (#22), so that should have been clear. Please look back and you will see that. You apparently missed it. It was not me that failed to read, lol.

My comments would certainly make no sense pertaining to you, and were not directed to you. I am aware of what you do, and I am sure that you have earned and deserve respect in your profession.

Since you seem to want to know who or what I am; my brief CV is:
12 years as engineering tech in aerospace (Rockwell & Douglas Aircraft), 32 years as electronics professor at Santa Ana College, and currently a semi-retired communications systems consulant
and trouble-shooter who does specialized site analysis for Verizon, Mororola, Sprint, etc. when they have intermodulation/interference problems that they need expert help to solve; hence "Commsysman" (what it says on my business card). (BS and MS from CSULB and UCLA)

I hope that information clarifies it for you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

I'm not sure who you are responding to, but if it is me, you have yet again failed to READ.

My employer is listed just below my name (on the left side of the screen)-and always has been.

While not a huge player yet, along with the regular sales-we had something like 17 stadium installs in the last year with many more coming up. Every year since the beginning we have had increasing sales with sales all around the world.

As far as other forums, Prosound web, Sound Forums are two of the larger ones, and our products and myself are well know there.

And yes-I do EARN a decent salery.

Of course we have no idea who you are-as you are hiding behind a made up name.

Others of us don't have anything to hide.

BTW-still waiting for any evidence of any loudspeaker (or paper describing) using a resistor as a fuseable element to protect the drivers.

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post #28 of 31 Old 11-25-2011, 06:57 AM
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Yes; absolutely. Thank you.

I am not going to post anything further on this forum.



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Let's stay on topic guys...

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post #29 of 31 Old 11-25-2011, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Yes; absolutely. Thank you.

I am not going to post anything further on this forum
.

I hope you are a man of your word.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #30 of 31 Old 11-25-2011, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

I'm not sure who you are responding to, but if it is me, you have yet again failed to READ.

Referring to me I'm sure, though now that I've Iggy'd him I'm spared having to read his vitriol. And I doubt he has the slightest clue as to who Tom is either.
BTW, I got my first job offer as a designer from Henry Kloss in 1973. He came to a party at my apartment and was intrigued by my subwoofer/satellite system. A single corner horn sub loaded with dual woofers acoustically summed the L/R, which was really important as so many recordings hard panned the bass and kick back then.

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