JTR, pro-audio, or other for music? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 12-29-2011, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Need just a little help here with deciding on a new music setup.

The room:
It’s only about a 100sqft “formal” dining room, but I use it for a music (band) room. Drums are centered on a 4” riser I built to protect the floor. One side is pretty much open except for a guitar amp because there is a doorway to the kitchen in the front corner and this is the side where I access my drums. The other side has my 5-guitar stand in the front corner and a Randall horn-loaded bass cabinet (about 4’ tall) centered on the wall. In the back corners of the room, on either side of the drums, is speaker space. I have a little over 2’ wide available on each side.

The speakers:
I have a set of really cheapo PA cabinets that have missing frequency ranges. They are OK for monitors, but not for listening to music. Right now, they are disconnected and sitting on either side of my kick drum as tables for other equipment. The current speakers I have in the back corners are an extra set of Klipsch RF-83s I had lying around. They work, but aren’t suited for their location. The ports are less than a foot from the walls, and firing directly into the corners. They are driven by a Sherbourn 5/5210. Music comes from either an iPod, computer (that sits beside my floor tom), or CD player that feeds the 2-track of an Alesis, which provides my volume control.

The problem:
I play the system very loud when I am around the house, particularly when showering and/or getting ready for work. A few weeks back I was showing off, as we tend to do, and blew a driver in each speaker. Klipsch sent me new ones and I got them going, but I’m afraid of damaging them again. I think it might have been too much power at low frequencies, or even below tuning loss of control, and the resulting destructive excursion.

The plan:
Originally, I was going to get a receiver that has a HPF and sub out so I could limit the low frequencies to the towers and let a sub or two handle the bottom end. My “what if” came to me and questioned what actually blew the speakers. Maybe it had nothing to do with low frequency. Maybe I just hit the limit and it’s time to go bigger or stay home. Klipschorns would be marvelous if I had somewhere to put them. I actually entertained, briefly, the idea of remodeling my LR to accept a pair of them. But this would require removing a fireplace and making it into a regular corner, then sealing off the doorway to the hall and relocating it to the dining room (also requiring me to rewire that wall because of 3 outlets and a doorbell). Plus bye, bye band room.

My latest idea is a pro-audio-like setup. This is where I need help. I love the idea of a pair of JTR Captivators, with a pair of their Triple 12s on top and friction pads to keep them from sliding off. But I don’t know about the value added because if I went pro-audio, I could get Yamaha (SW118V) subs and (S115V)PA speakers for less than a third the cost of JTRs. I just don’t know how they would sound. I prefer the looks of JTRs HT series, but it’s not a deal maker for choosing them over other, less expensive, pro-audio speakers. Being in the room I specified and for my intended use, it would seem that any JTR advantages in sound quality are also overruled.

I also looked at a pair of CHT SV18.1. A pair of them, shipped, is barely more than a single Captivator. Then there’s still the question of what speakers to pair with them.


The budget:
Not really an issue. I’m more of a value-based thinker. I’ve got no problem splurging on the JTRs……as long as I can find the value in them. Right now, the Yamahas I mentioned are looking really good for the money.
Any other options or suggestions for me? Perhaps some other speakers similar to T12s?
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post #2 of 36 Old 12-29-2011, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Before it's mentioned.......

Wiring for full-house audio is beyond what I want to do.

My intention is as described, but I am also planning for the future. If I find or build a house with a better suited band and music room, then the equipment I get now will be used in it.
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post #3 of 36 Old 12-29-2011, 07:40 PM
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Is this far enough away?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWznxY4CmI4

Sounds like you already know what a cheaper PA speaker will do for you.
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post #4 of 36 Old 12-29-2011, 11:40 PM - Thread Starter
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That's pretty sweet.

I emailed Jeff a few days ago to sell me on T12s over some similar JBL PA speakers that cost much less. I didn't get much persuasion from him.

The reason I used Yamaha speakers as an example is because the "matching" subs spec much better than all the other pro subs in the proce range.

The cheap cabinets I have now might have cost me $50 8 or 9 years ago. They have cheap $1.99 mid and high horns and the front baffles are 1/2" OSB.
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post #5 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

A few weeks back I was showing off, as we tend to do, and blew a driver in each speaker. Klipsch sent me new ones and I got them going, but I'm afraid of damaging them again. I think it might have been too much power at low frequencies, or even below tuning loss of control, and the resulting destructive excursion.

...Maybe I just hit the limit and it's time to go bigger or stay home. Klipschorns would be marvelous if I had somewhere to put them. I actually entertained, briefly, the idea of remodeling my LR to accept a pair of them. But this would require removing a fireplace and making it into a regular corner, then sealing off the doorway to the hall and relocating it to the dining room (also requiring me to rewire that wall because of 3 outlets and a doorbell). Plus bye, bye band room.

Yikes... I've owned a pair of Klipsch for over 30 years (LaScalas) and schlepped them through the (highly) abusive college years and onward... I've blown about 3/4 tweeters in my EV's but my LaScalas have taken all the abuse that could be thrown at them through college (also while playing for dances, wedding receptions, frat parties)

Regarding Khorns.... I don't know your budget but Klipsch does have some larger offerings and one of them which you've perhaps seen/read about, the Jubilee was the intended improved replacement to the Khorn and doesn't have the need for corners like the Khorn does. (helps but not needed)

Not inexpensive but I don't pretend to know your budget. They're large (freaking huge). Perhaps a listen to them if someone has some in your area would answer many unknowns.

They are really impressive. Put it this way.... PWK designed the Khorn with very little experience designing horns (from what I understand. AFter all, they were his first speaker, right?) . By the time he finished designing the Jubilee he had about 50 years of experience designing horns and had learned another thing or two.
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post #6 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't really have space for the large Klipsch Heritage speakers. The best I could do is La Scalas or COrnwalls. Then, I'd still need subs.

My current LR HT setup spans over 12ft of the 22ft wall. The remaining 5 feet to the left is a corner fireplace. The remaining 5 feet to the right is the entry from the foyer/hallway. So no chance of fitting a big, loud setup there. I'll have to stick with the "music" room, which is small (11-1/2x10) and holds me to about a 2x2 footprint in the corners.

I think, as much as I'd like some Heritage, I have to wait for a room that they would be at home in.

I've been looking more at the CHT VS-18.1. It fits and would put speakers at a perfect height to project above the drums and other stuff in the room. Then again, so would Captivators or the Yamahas. The CHT is just looking better the more I look at it. Low extension and $1570 for a pair delivered......Still don't know what speakers to look at to go with them. I guess I could pair the JTR T12s with them.

As far as budget goes, I think the MOST I'd spend is the $6k (plus shipping) it would cost for Captivators and T12s. Possibly more for pretty veneers. But that's my value mind thinking. I still need to find the value in JTR. If I can do that, then budget is no problem at all.
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post #7 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 04:45 AM
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I was looking at the t12s also, but couldn't find the value either. I spoke to Jeff also numerous times on the caps and the speakers but honestly he didn't sell me on anything.
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post #8 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 05:36 AM
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That is interesting, I have never spoken to him, but perhaps he is not a salesman. I understand the irony in that statement as what he does somewhat requires it. Perhaps he has too much business right now. It seems others have helped sell for him via word of mouth and auditions. Well, now I am just assuming, but interesting never the less.
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post #9 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 05:57 AM
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You may want to check these out too:

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...oducts_id=1006

I think nezff is getting some of these too.
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post #10 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 06:06 AM
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If you are keen on a pair of CHT VS-18.1, they have dimensions 40”H x 22”W x 22”D. The Klipsch La Scala is just under 24" wide so you could stack it nicely on top. You can get them used for around 1K a pair.

Another way to go are tapped horn subs, maybe the Danley DTS-10.

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post #11 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 07:17 AM
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How about a pair of active speakers like:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-PRX635-1...item20be949493
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post #12 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 07:33 AM
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OP, have you considered Seaton Sound Catalyst-12C? There's some great owner reviews/ comments in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1163005

I don't own them (although I do have a SubM) but from what I've read I wish I could! Anyways, just thought I'd throw another option on the table for you.
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post #13 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 10:38 AM
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To the OP,

I had a similiar experience with Jeff from JTR when I first contacted him and asked questions about his product line. He was very knowledgeable but did not sell me into buying his product. Gave me the feeling that he was not quite the salesman. After several more phone calls and research I decided to purchase T12's and an orbit shifter for home theater use. To this date it has been the best audio purchase/decision I have ever made regarding my needs for home theater.

Jeff may not be a smooth, fast talking salesman, but he those provide a freshing attitude not found too often in the audio world. As consumers (in the audio business) we have become accustomed too being pumped full of hot air by manufacturers and reps over inflating products to make them look better.

the son, do yourself a favor and audition JTR or any other speaker brand you are considering. After a demo from any manufacturer, it will be all the selling you will need to make the right purchase for your specific goals/taste.
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post #14 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thxman View Post

You may want to check these out too:

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...oducts_id=1006

I think nezff is getting some of these too.

Oh, yeah....He's looking at having a set built based on those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

If you are keen on a pair of CHT VS-18.1, they have dimensions 40H x 22W x 22D. The Klipsch La Scala is just under 24" wide so you could stack it nicely on top. You can get them used for around 1K a pair.

Another way to go are tapped horn subs, maybe the Danley DTS-10.

That would be nice. I would still worry about the smaller Heritage not holding up. Hard to find local demos in (North) AL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

How about a pair of active speakers like:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-PRX635-1...item20be949493

I hadn't thought of looking into actives. It would eliminate 1 amp from the system.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

the son, do yourself a favor and audition JTR or any other speaker brand you are considering. After a demo from any manufacturer, it will be all the selling you will need to make the right purchase for your specific goals/taste.

Goes back to finding some. I bet these would be harder to find than Heritage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryansboston View Post

OP, have you considered Seaton Sound Catalyst-12C? There's some great owner reviews/ comments in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1163005

Is the 12C different from the Catalysts on the Seaton forum? Those things are $3500 each +shipping! Talk about trying to find the value.....


I'll have to look more into powered speakers, but I'm still liking the separate amp idea.
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post #15 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 01:41 PM
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Well, the La Scala are not smaller heritage in terms of holding up. Same drivers as the Klipschorn in a smaller package, built with a different bass bin horn-loading design that doesn't go as deep as the Klipschorn. Same 104 dB sensitivity. Maybe someone on the Klipsch forum has some close to you and would be willing to provide an audition.

EDIT: First time someone tells me the 2x2x3 foot La Scala is small. :-)

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post #16 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

EDIT: First time someone tells me the 2x2x3 foot La Scala is small. :-)

.....relative to KHorns and Jubs.


Maybe while I'm trying to find my setup I should get something with a crossover and try running these 83s with about a 50Hz HPF. Then crank them to a satisfactory level and see what happens. Worst case, they just can't handle it and they blow again. They are a spare set.

I'd at least find out if it's the level or the frequency......
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post #17 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 05:03 PM
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The majority of lesser priced "pro" speakers are a mediocre woofer and a budget minded comp driver with an off the shelf crossover and horn. Basic cabinet construction and loud but not very good sound also describe these designs. This covers a large number of entry level pro speakers. I have found that a few pro speaker manufacturers actually make speakers for the home as well and they sound excellent. These would be danleysoundlabs, jtr, and seatonsound(high output home speakers). I agree that you should audition, but these three are hard to beat for high fidelity and high output speaker systems that have been meticulously engineered and tested. All three are excellent companies to work with as well IMO.

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post #18 of 36 Old 12-30-2011, 05:12 PM
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the son,

Where do you live? I bet if you hop on over to the JTR Speakers thread you will find someone willing to demo their speakers for you. I had someone about 30 minutes away listen to my Quintuples and he ended up buying Triple 8s.

Jeff did not try to talk me into buying his speakers either. He is a speaker maker, not a salesman.

I was not happy with the speaker I was using for my center, and he allowed me to send it back, at my convenience, and sent me a better solution.

Jeff Permanian and Mark Seaton have collaborated on a couple projects, so I think either product will serve you well.

If you want sound, look at JTR or Seatons; if you want pretty look at Sonus Faber they are gorgeous.
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post #19 of 36 Old 12-31-2011, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy View Post

the son,

Where do you live? I bet if you hop on over to the JTR Speakers thread you will find someone willing to demo their speakers for you.

Good idea. Will do.
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post #20 of 36 Old 12-31-2011, 06:18 AM
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Similarly, as I mentioned earlier ask for a La Scala audition on http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/4.aspx
It could save you some bucks going used.

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post #21 of 36 Old 12-31-2011, 07:01 AM
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I think I'm probably one of the few people on this forum that can speak to exactly what you have mentioned interest in --- at least for subwoofers.
I'm not much of a speaker guy, as I think most any capable quality speaker is fine, but I do prefer a quality subwoofer, and that's where my interest is. Bass/lower octaves has always been my favorite part of all types of music and movies.

In May timeframe of 2011 I bought a Yamaha CW218V - This is the exact same sub you mentioned but in dual 18" sub enclosure form instead of single. I really did like the Yamaha for music, and would still really recommend it if music is your primary choice. I liked the Yamaha better overall than the pair of Jamo D7 Subs I owned at the time, and better for music than the pair of SVS PB13 Ultras I owned about mid year. For the price the Yamaha is probably pretty much unbeatable. They are a five star product at most every review site you can find them at. At the time of purchase I couldn't believe how good of a value they were and was thinking how could these possibly be beat? I specifically purchased the Yamaha CW218V before the subwoofer meet I was hosting because I always wanted to hear how a PA subwoofer compared to some highly touted home theater subs. Then I hosted the KC subwoofer meet and got to hear first hand. You can read multiple peoples subjective opinions on this in the link in my signature. The Yamahas actually faired pretty well overall. They lacked in deep low frequency output, but made up for that fact somewhat with their incredible SPL capability. Keep in mind they were run off a very cheap amp at the KC meet, and would have sounded better, and DO sound better on a better amp like my current EP4000, or Inuke amp.
Here is the link. You can read lost of comments from different forum members about them.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1335139

At that same meet was a JTR Captivator. I loved it. It is my single favorite sub I've ever heard and easily beat the Yamaha in both Music and Movie reproduction from our collective votes. I ended up purchasing two passive JTR Captivators and have no regrets. I still have the Yamaha CW218V in my basement because I'm having trouble selling it on craigslist. It's definately not a bad subwoofer, but it is outclassed significantly by the JTR. Again if my sole focus of sub duty was only mainstream music, and I had the Yamaha on one hand for $700 or the JTR on the other hand for $3000. I'd probably pick the Yamaha (but I LOVE dubstep and bass heavy electronica music - making this decsion not so cut and dry for me). Add in mixed duty of music and movies and I'd gladly pay the extra for the Captivators.

I also heard the Chase 18.1 VS vs. the JTR Captivator at the Omaha subwoofer mee in October. You can read about users experiences for that subwoofer here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1368326

I'd rate the 18.1 VS below the JTR Captivator, as did nearly everyone else, but the 18.1 vs is an absolutely excellent subwoofer as well and would easily place above the Yamahas. The build quality was very nice, it looked nice, and it sounded great on most everything I heard --with the exception of a couple movie clips where it seemed to not be as clean as the JTR Captivator. These are basically the JTR Captivator without as much headroom, but retain the ability to dig deep. How much headroom do you need? The Captivators will make you go deaf and go well into insanity category. The VS 18.1 are plenty capable themselves.


For music I don't think you'd be displeased with any of these subwoofers. The Yamaha's are excellent and probably unbeatable for their price, My CW218V was $704 shipped overnight with prime from amazon. The Chase Home Theater 18.1 VS pair is ~$1700 shipped according to the website, but if you contact Craig, he might cut a small amount off if you order two, because freight shipping on these things is pretty much standard cost per pallet regardless of weight. The passive JTR Captivators are about $3250 shipped, but if you contact Jeff you might be able to get a worthwhile discount on some of his 2011 overstock and b stock noted here.
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.co...202011-5611984

Each level is a noticable upgrade. Having heard all three I can tell you that with certainty. It depends on what your budget is, and goals.

Truthfully if all I wanted was music playback the Yamahas would be absolutely fine, but they don't go deep for movie playback. The VS18.1 and the Captivators are in a whole other league for anything below 35hz. The VS18.1 will do most of what the Captivators do, but the Captivators do it with pretty much limitless headroom (at least well beyond what your ears can handle)

If you live in the Kansas City area I'd be happy to demo the JTR Caps vs. the Yamaha CW218 subs I have right now.


Here is my full list of subwoofer experiences

In the last calendar year (2011) I’ve owned –
• Captivator Pro pair (mid/late 2011) (love)
• SVS PB13 Ultra pair (mid 2011) (sold within a couple months of purchase - I didn't like them for music)
• Yamaha CW218V (mid 2011) (plan to sell - love for music - doesn't do much for me on home theatre)
• Jamo D7sub pair (Early/mid 2011) (liked them quite a bit, were fantastic for music with the right settings - THX Ultra II certified - overpriced MSRP of $2k each - not very capable of the SPL I crave - they died and I sold)
• Infinity HPS-1000 pair (turn of 2011) (very nice subs IMO, the best Infinity has ever made according to the authorized repair shop that does anything but actually repair them correctly - one's been in and out of the shop for the last year and the other died at the 2011 superbowl party and I just gave up at that point and decided I would start a new sub search -- hence all this craziness. The Infinity's each have one 15" driver with two passive 15" radiators and a 1000 watt amp - but they keep having amp issues and dying)


In the last calendar year (2011) I’ve heard –

Dual DIY Dual Cinema F-20 (lilmike designed)
BIC America Formula F12
DIY Rythmik
Elemental Designs A7s-450
Motor City Custom Audio Dual MFW-15 Turbos
Chase Home Theater SS 18.2
Chase Home Theater CS 18.1 pair
JTR Speakers Dual Captivator Pro
Seaton Submersive HP (heard five in the same room at counsil's place a couple months ago)
Chase Home Theater Dual VS 18.1
Danley Sound Labs DTS-10 + JTR Growler
SVS PB12+
HSU VTF-15H (two in a 1500 cubic foot room - what a fun ride during the Battlefield LA movie with a 16hz tune)
Epike Empire (heard four in the same room - I dont' think these have much extension compared to other options)
Yamaha CW218V
Jamo D7sub pair
Jenson MS500
SVS PB13 Ultra pair
Infinity HPS-1000 pair
and even an Onkyo HTIB sub.

Previous to this 2011 calendar year I’ve heard many different vendors and models at friends houses and home theatres, clubs, concerts, churches, etc. I’ve heard expensive velodynes to cheap JBL subs. I’ve heard multiple DIY type projects. I’ve heard (and loved) gads of different car audio equipment, up to some of the best types of subs like JL w7's and competition Orion drivers --because I and many of my friends were into car audio. Yes, I will even confess I have heard and even owned --15 years ago -- a HTIB sub. Inexperienced I am not – and the Captivator is the best overall sub, IMO, I’ve ever heard. Take my opinion for what you will.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #22 of 36 Old 12-31-2011, 07:36 AM
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oh and you are right

Jeff is not a salesman. He is a very quiet guy and doesn't push anything on anyone. In meeting him on a couple occassions he is definately not your typical vendor, but as thxman stated above, his products speak for themselves upon audition. Jeff probably loses more sales than he should by not promoting his products, but those who have heard them don't require a sales pitch to be convinced. He makes very high quality stuff. Over the top? probably, but it all depends on what you want. Like I said -- you'd probably be happy with any of these three options Yamaha, Chase Home Theater, JTR Captivator for music related sub duty.

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post #23 of 36 Old 12-31-2011, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Archaea!!!

Good info. I actually kept up with the KC meet for the first 5-10 pages, but anything that referenced the Yamaha, I just skipped over because it didn't pique my interest. I didn't realize it was a pro sub, or I'd have gone back and reread it.

I did, however come across your post specific to the Yamaha that started with asking how it would compare to HT subs. Also still trying to make it through the bitch-fest that is the VTF-15H vs. CHT VS-18.1. Holy thread crap, people. I'm on page 15. I started it about 3 this morning and had to call it quits and get some sleep.

So with all that, I guess I can be more blunt....

I think I'm looking for stupid loud.

At the same time it can't sound like crap. Not that it has to be perfect. When I want to listen moderately loud and immerse myself, I use my HT setup. It's RF-83-based with dual VTF-15H subs, and it just wonderful for sitting and enjoying 2.2-channel music--in the same room. It just doesn't go loud enough for house-filling duties because I'm limited by the reference level calibration of the receiver. That's why I set up the spare RF-83s for music only.

Again, I MAY be able to HPF these at 40-50Hz and be fine. I just don't know. But I'd then need subs which I have no space for with the 83s there. I do have an RW-12 connected high-level, but it's on my riser next to the throne and kinda cramps me in place behind the kit.

So it would seem that the Yamaha subs would be sufficient, since it's a music-only setup. But I do listen to some which I like to have the really low thump. Mostly classic rock, but some modern stuff too.

I think I would have the same impressions as you with the Yamahas. Perfect and LOUD for a lot of music, but lacking in those thumping songs.



I need to start a thread in the subwoofer forum to discuss all the sub-related stuff, mainly how much hassle is involved with setting up a passive CHT or JTR sub. How do I quote posts from this thread into another? I don't want anyone to have to repeat or go linking to this thread.
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post #24 of 36 Old 12-31-2011, 03:58 PM
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To quote to a new thread just click the quote button, and then copy and past that text to a new thread of your choice. You can also multiquote. Take -- just click all the threads you want to quote and then reply when you've got several selected.



I have a feeling the yamahas are exactly what the doctor ordered for rock and most mainstream music. Especially since you already can get your fix with the HSU setup for movies, and this sub is for music only. The price is certaintly right.

The only kind of music that dips below where they might be comfortable is strictly bass music type tracks or minimally some dubstep songs.

The Yamahas will sound like you are in a club and will get LOUD. If you don't need a dual purpose sub - (movies and music) and you want club setting loud I think the Yamaha's are a good fit.

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post #25 of 36 Old 12-31-2011, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup...got the quote thing figured out for other threads....

I checked my SPL for what I have now. At the doorway to the room, 9ft and centered from the horns on the 83s, I am peaking at 110dB. The drivers are going crazy, and I'm afraid if I go louder I'll blow them again.

This is why I think maybe filtering them will keep out the lower frequencies (and excursion) and allow me to go louder.
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post #26 of 36 Old 01-01-2012, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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.....that's with 105dB average.
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post #27 of 36 Old 01-04-2012, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

...I think I'm looking for stupid loud...


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post #28 of 36 Old 01-04-2012, 09:46 PM
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The reason I bought my JTR stuff IS because Jeff wasn't pushy or a salesman. It's nice not to be fed complete garbage that a lot of vendors feed us. I'm not sure why anyone would want to be persuaded to buy something from the owner/salesman. Thats the whole reason I pretty much buy everything online because I don't want to deal with salesmen.

BTW my JTR stuff was the best purchase I've made in Audio and believe me, my HT is a revolving door of stuff. Every 6 months to a year, the electronics are completely changed for fun but my JTR T12's, T8's and S8's will be there a long time.

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post #29 of 36 Old 01-05-2012, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you have any pictures of the T8 next to the T12? I'm starting to lean.

I'd really like to see a T12 on a Captivator and a T8 on a Cap. It's going to come down to looks. Visualizing, I think the T12 may be too big and look awkward on a Cap, but I won't know for sure until I see it. But I'd at least like to see the T8 and T12 side-by-side.
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post #30 of 36 Old 01-05-2012, 06:08 PM
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My T8's are sealed and the T12's are the Ht versions. If you're going with the sealed versions, the T12's are not very big. My T8 sealed are quite small for what they are.
I do remember a few pics of exactly what you are looking for, though I don't remember where they were lol

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