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post #1 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello AVS forum users,

I have long heard about this site and how wonderful it is to get knowledge regarding home theaters. I have recently found it a hobby of mine to begin dabbling in such things, since I am going to be moving to a new house in the spring, and there is an opportunity to improve my setup. Currently, I am using an "in a box" setup which I bought a couple years ago:

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/SC-PT960

Now, there is nothing wrong with this system, I love it and all, but I don't like the lack of inputs / upgradability. In the house I am moving too, there is much more room for a high end system, so I am trying to obtain some knowledge as to where to start. The owner had a pretty nice setup installed already as far as I could tell, but didn't know any of the specs (he's on old guy, his son did it for him). There are speakers in the walls which he will not be taking with him, I counted 5. He will however, be taking all of the receiver components as well as subwoofer.

I know I need a receiver and a subwoofer, and I have been looking into those now, and I am a little confused. For example, take a look at this receiver:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Rx-V6...ht_3089wt_1037

It says the total output is 630 watts. So does this mean that the total power of the system it could possibly have would be 630 watts? Or is there some way to incorporate amplifiers / other technology to increase the total output? Keep in mind I am completely new at this stuff so please explain thoroughly in your response. I have also looked at higher end Denon receivers in price ranges of $2000 and up, and haven't found anything that matches my Panasonic as far as wattage. I am missing something?

Thanks,
Dave
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post #2 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 07:40 AM
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The majority of the sound quality is in the speakers, not the amps, preamps, receivers, cables, wires, DAC, CD, BD players.

Since you are new, read up on The Audio Critic:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Back_Issues/

They will dispel all the myths about audio vudu and snake oil.

For example, did you know that there is a double-blinded study proving that most people can't even tell the difference between a $300 receiver and a $10,000 amp?

Yet, most people will just say, "I don't believe in any of those studies."

Everyone is an expert you know?

Everyone is a psychologist. Everyone is a doctor. And everyone is an engineer.

So just do yourself a favor and read some of the Audio Critic before you get fooled.

Really, you will be just fine with most of the $500 - $1,000 receivers out there.

Example: Yamaha RX-A800

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A800...5346171&sr=8-1
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post #3 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 07:40 AM
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The V667 will be a much, much better sounding receiver and produce more volume at reasonable levels of distortion. The Panasonic is being rated at very high levels of distortion into 6 ohms, while the Yamaha is much, much more conservatively rated into 8 ohms. Most receivers will produce more wattage at 8 ohms than at 6 ohms. So the wattage rating at the high distortion and not providing the 8 ohm rating is Panasonic's way of making a very cheap receiver look good to people who don't know better. Very common marketing tactic.

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post #4 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 07:52 AM
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Dave;

The first thing you need to know is that the 630 watt number in the Panasonic specs is an absolute total LIE!!

The only power spec you want to look at is the audio power output PER CHANNEL and the number of channels driven (usually two). They say that it has 90 watts per channel RMS with 2 channels driven, so the only power output they are actually promising is 180 watts total.

They just get that 630 by adding up the wattage of the channels, and it is a meaningless and misleading number. In fact, the power supply of that thing has no more than 400 watts maximum output, which is why it can only drive 2 or 3 channels at a time to full output.

But that is typical of almost ALL HT receivers. Yamaha is better than most in that it rates its amplifiers to drive 4 ohm speakers, where some say you can only use speakers of 6 ohms or higher. The RX-667 is not a bad choice, but if you could step up to the RX-671 that is of course better.

You want to get a receiver that has at least 90 watts per channel. 98% of all receivers, however, have the same problem in that they never expect you to drive 5 or 7 speakers to the max and skimp on the power supply. There is just not enough power there to push all of the channels hard without risking a lot of distortion when the power supply runs out of current.

The Cambridge Audio 650R receiver is the ONLY receiver I have ever heard of that actually says that its amplifiers can put out 100 watts per channel with ALL 7 channels driven at once. You might want to look at it. It is a really excellent unit. Audio Advisor has it for $1600. This unit blows all of your Panasonic or Yamaha receivers out of the water in every respect; no comparison! It has a 1400 WATT power supply; the Panasonic has about 350-400 watts.

Another way to go would be to get the Yamaha or similar receiver and get the Emotiva XPA-3 amplifier, which gives you 3 200-watt amplifiers to use in the front 3 channels and costs about $700, and then the receiver only has to supply current to the four rear speakers, which it can do pretty well.

For an adequate subwoofer that is under $500, the JBL ES250PBK is $350 on Amazon, and that is a pretty good one.

Do NOT even think about any subwoofer that has less than a 350-watt RMS amplifier and a 12-inch driver. Anything less is inadequate for anything but a very small room.


************************************************************ *************

I know I need a receiver and a subwoofer, and I have been looking into those now, and I am a little confused. For example, take a look at this receiver:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Rx-V6...ht_3089wt_1037

It says the total output is 630 watts. So does this mean that the total power of the system it could possibly have would be 630 watts? Or is there some way to incorporate amplifiers / other technology to increase the total output? Keep in mind I am completely new at this stuff so please explain thoroughly in your response. I have also looked at higher end Denon receivers in price ranges of $2000 and up, and haven't found anything that matches my Panasonic as far as wattage. I am missing something?

Thanks,
Dave [/quote]
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post #5 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 08:39 AM
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People who actually are knowledgeable about audio refer to that eccentric old twit as "THE AUDIO CRANK".

For each true thing he says, he says 10 other things that are totally ridiculous.

He is a complete joke!

I can't imagine a dirtier trick than recommending that "Audio Critic" nonsense to a newbie.

Shame on you.


And as for tests, I can design a double-blind test between a Corvette and a Honda Civic, and no one will ever be able to tell any difference from it. There ARE, nevertheless, some rather large differences.

Negative results in a test almost always tell you ONLY that the test didn't REVEAL differences, and there can be 100 reasons for that. It doesn't mean that a difference wasn't there!

There are 1000 ways to run a test which will NOT reveal differences that ARE THERE!


Only an idiot looks at a test that did not prove a difference and claim that it proves that a diifference was not there.



************************************************************ ****************

The Audio Critic:

snake oil.
************************************************************ ****************



.
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post #6 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The V667 will be a much, much better sounding receiver and produce more volume at reasonable levels of distortion.

I own the V667 and it is decent - if not, then I would have thrown it
out the door. The Panasonic is not much to brag about.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #7 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Cambridge Audio 650R receiver is the ONLY receiver I have ever heard of that actually says that its amplifiers can put out 100 watts per channel with ALL 7 channels driven at once.

Harman Kardon's receivers are rated all channels driven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For an adequate subwoofer that is under $500, the JBL ES250PBK is $350 on Amazon, and that is a pretty good one.

Do NOT even think about any subwoofer that has less than a 350-watt RMS amplifier and a 12-inch driver. Anything less is inadequate for anything but a very small room.

As a rule of thumb only, larger drives DO mean more air displacement, which generally means that they can produce more volume for a given amount of amplification. But it's not as simple as all that. There are too many other factors that determine a sub's effectiveness, such as driver design, tuning point, and enclosure size, and not to mention the frequency response of the sub. For example, I would choose (and I would imagine others would, too) the HSU VTF-2 MK3 over the JBL that commsysman recommends, and it has a 250 watt continuous amp and is rated for rooms up to 4,500 cubic feet.

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post #8 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

People who actually are knowledgeable about audio refer to that eccentric old twit as "THE AUDIO CRANK".

For each true thing he says, he says 10 other things that are totally ridiculous.

He is a complete joke!

I can't imagine a dirtier trick than recommending that "Audio Critic" nonsense to a newbie.

Shame on you.

And as for tests, I can design a double-blind test between a Corvette and a Honda Civic, and no one will ever be able to tell any difference from it...

As I was saying to the original poster djalali59, better arm himself and read The Audio Critic before all these self proclaimed experts like you tell him all kinds of crap about how every amp, preamp, AVR, wires, and cables sound differently.
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post #9 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 01:02 PM
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WOW. I feel sorry for the OP on this thread.

If you are going to educate him on how many watts per channel he needs, maybe you should also fill him in on speaker sensitivity, distance to listening position and the rest of it. I'm by no means an expert but I can tell you my speakers don't need 90 watts per channel at my listening distance for 100 db.

Dave I hope the thread gets easier for a newbie to understand. I know which posters in this thread you should be listening to but I'm not going to get into that.
Good luck
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post #10 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djalali59 View Post

Hello AVS forum users,

I have long heard about this site and how wonderful it is to get knowledge regarding home theaters. I have recently found it a hobby of mine to begin dabbling in such things, since I am going to be moving to a new house in the spring, and there is an opportunity to improve my setup. Currently, I am using an "in a box" setup which I bought a couple years ago:

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/SC-PT960

Now, there is nothing wrong with this system, I love it and all, but I don't like the lack of inputs / upgradability. In the house I am moving too, there is much more room for a high end system, so I am trying to obtain some knowledge as to where to start. The owner had a pretty nice setup installed already as far as I could tell, but didn't know any of the specs (he's on old guy, his son did it for him). There are speakers in the walls which he will not be taking with him, I counted 5. He will however, be taking all of the receiver components as well as subwoofer.

I know I need a receiver and a subwoofer, and I have been looking into those now, and I am a little confused. For example, take a look at this receiver:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Rx-V6...ht_3089wt_1037

It says the total output is 630 watts. So does this mean that the total power of the system it could possibly have would be 630 watts? Or is there some way to incorporate amplifiers / other technology to increase the total output? Keep in mind I am completely new at this stuff so please explain thoroughly in your response. I have also looked at higher end Denon receivers in price ranges of $2000 and up, and haven't found anything that matches my Panasonic as far as wattage. I am missing something?

Thanks,
Dave

Hey dave,
Welcome to the best hobby in the world! I didn't see it but first off what are your expectations for your system? What is your room size? Music? More movies?

I don't mean this in the wrong way but take a look at the avr section and read the avr faq. That has some good stuff . It will help you on your decisions! And of course if you still are confused feel free to ask! Lots of well informed members here to help you.

-Kevin

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #11 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

I appreciate the information you have given me thus far, but unfortunately, my main questions are still unanswered. What I meant in my original post was this: on the Panasonic "home theater in a box" link I shared (the current system I OWN right now), it said the total output power was 1200W. Unless I am completely misguided, this determines the loudness and overall power of total system when cranked to full volume, correct?

But now, when I am shopping around for receivers, they seem to have total output powers that are much much lower than my current system (i.e. the Yamaha receiver I shared had a total of 630W output power). So does this mean that if I use that receiver for my setup, 630W is the maximum output? Or is there something else involved that I am not aware of?

My current knowledge is simply this: You buy a receiver, speakers, and a sub woofer, and connect them. Is there something else you add to the system to increase the power? Do you use an amplifier? How does that amplifier connect to your system / what does it do?

Thanks,
Dave
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post #12 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djalali59 View Post

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

I appreciate the information you have given me thus far, but unfortunately, my main questions are still unanswered. What I meant in my original post was this: on the Panasonic "home theater in a box" link I shared (the current system I OWN right now), it said the total output power was 1200W. Unless I am completely misguided, this determines the loudness and overall power of total system when cranked to full volume, correct?

But now, when I am shopping around for receivers, they seem to have total output powers that are much much lower than my current system (i.e. the Yamaha receiver I shared had a total of 630W output power). So does this mean that if I use that receiver for my setup, 630W is the maximum output? Or is there something else involved that I am not aware of?

My current knowledge is simply this: You buy a receiver, speakers, and a sub woofer, and connect them. Is there something else you add to the system to increase the power? Do you use an amplifier? How does that amplifier connect to your system / what does it do?

Thanks,
Dave

Short answer: amp gives you more power. Do you need it? Depends on your situation. How does it connect? You use pre outs. The low end avrs don't have pre outs (well for the subwoofer they do).

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #13 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djalali59 View Post

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

I appreciate the information you have given me thus far, but unfortunately, my main questions are still unanswered. What I meant in my original post was this: on the Panasonic "home theater in a box" link I shared (the current system I OWN right now), it said the total output power was 1200W. Unless I am completely misguided, this determines the loudness and overall power of total system when cranked to full volume, correct?

But now, when I am shopping around for receivers, they seem to have total output powers that are much much lower than my current system (i.e. the Yamaha receiver I shared had a total of 630W output power). So does this mean that if I use that receiver for my setup, 630W is the maximum output? Or is there something else involved that I am not aware of?

The answer to your question is that you can't compare those specs between the different receivers based purely on wattage because they are measured in different ways.

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post #14 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djalali59 View Post

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

I appreciate the information you have given me thus far, but unfortunately, my main questions are still unanswered. What I meant in my original post was this: on the Panasonic "home theater in a box" link I shared (the current system I OWN right now), it said the total output power was 1200W. Unless I am completely misguided, this determines the loudness and overall power of total system when cranked to full volume, correct?

But now, when I am shopping around for receivers, they seem to have total output powers that are much much lower than my current system (i.e. the Yamaha receiver I shared had a total of 630W output power). So does this mean that if I use that receiver for my setup, 630W is the maximum output? Or is there something else involved that I am not aware of?

My current knowledge is simply this: You buy a receiver, speakers, and a sub woofer, and connect them. Is there something else you add to the system to increase the power? Do you use an amplifier? How does that amplifier connect to your system / what does it do?

Thanks,
Dave

Do not pay attention to the wild Panasonic specs - they are rating it
at 1000 khz with 10 percent distortion. There is a lot of sound and
activity that happens under 1000 khz - and it takes clean power to
hear this. If you drive the Panasonic hard - you will hear a lot of the
distortion/noise and not very clean sound. Also, some of the speakers
are rated for 3 and 6 ohms - the subwoofer is rated at 100 hz. They
are using cheap marketing specs, to draw your attention.
The Yamaha is rated 20 to 20,000 khz with less than 1 percent of
distortion - it will sound more clean and more powerful and in reality
is more powerful. It can play 8, 6 and 4 ohms. The Panasonic will not
do that.
The Yamaha amps in the receiver will drive the speakers - the amp
in the subwoofer will drive the subwoofer. The Yamaha sends a signal
to the subwoofer amp.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #15 of 16 Old 12-31-2011, 07:07 PM
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Dave;

I am afraid that you either did not read post #4 or did not understand it; I probably was not clear enough.

I tried to answer your questions in that post. I apologize if I was not clear enough for you to understand. I will try again, and be more direct and clear where possible.

Yes, you are completely misguided and wrong regarding the "1200 watts". NOT correct.

First of all, you would need 1200 watts of amplifier power to hook up to them before you could find out if they could handle it. Speakers don't make power; an amplifier must supply it to them.

The 1200 watt number is an attempt to imply that those speakers can put out 1200 watts of audio power IF you hooked amplifiers that big to them (which is extremely unlikely), but that is WAY more than they actually CAN put out; that is total bull-crap! If you ever had amplifiers big enough to apply 1200 watts to them, they would certainly go up in smoke in less than one second when you did it!

As a matter of fact, 1200 watts of actual audio power in most rooms would quite possibly damage your ears (and it would take 200-500 pounds of HUGE speakers to produce it, NOT some dinky little speakers like you have).

It's like if you went to buy a little economy car and it had a sign on it saying "Never drive this car over 200 miles per hour!". Pure nonsense!

The only power rating that is meaningful to you is the rated RMS output power of the audio amplifiers of the receiver.

The Yamaha RX-667 has 90 watts maximum undistorted power per channel, with 2 channels fully driven. This is all you care about as far as power is concerned. This is probably all the power you will need for most HT listening with almost any speakers.

The 630 watt number is simply 90 watts per channel multiplied by 7 channels, but in reality your receiver is not capable of supplying 90 watts to all 7 channels at once, so that is only a nonsense number. It has nothing to do with reality.

The RX-667 can put out 90 watts to one or two channels at the same time, but there is no way it can supply all 7 at once with that much power, because the main power supply that runs the amplifiers is only able to put out 400 watts or so (not 630).

Do you care? Maybe. Maybe not. Most people will never have any problem with that because they will never turn it up loud enough to exceed the 400 watts actually available from the receiver power supply. All seven channels do not normally operate at or near maximum power all at once.

In normal listening you are probably only supplying 1 to 10 watts of power to each speaker. Really cranking it up to high volumes can make that go way up in a hurry though.

Some people MAY find their receiver runs out of power at very high volumes if they really crank it up high, and the sound gets very distorted . In that case they are trying to push more power to the speakers than the receiver can give; the power supply is saying "NO...I can't do it!"

If this is a problem, the way to fix it is by adding another 2 (or 3) channel power amplifier to your system. What you do then to hook it up is hook the PRE OUT jacks of the receiver's front 2 (or 3) channels to the inputs of the new amplifier channels and hook the front speakers to the new amplifiers. Now the new amplifiers power the front speakers and the receiver only has to power the other 5 (or 4) speakers.

That makes it MUCH less likely that the receiver will run out of power at high volume.

The subwoofer normally has its own built-in amplifier to run it, so in that case it needs no power from the receiver; just a connection.

I am fairly sure that I answered every question this time, but please ask more questions if anything is still unclear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djalali59 View Post

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

I appreciate the information you have given me thus far, but unfortunately, my main questions are still unanswered. What I meant in my original post was this: on the Panasonic "home theater in a box" link I shared (the current system I OWN right now), it said the total output power was 1200W. Unless I am completely misguided, this determines the loudness and overall power of total system when cranked to full volume, correct?

But now, when I am shopping around for receivers, they seem to have total output powers that are much much lower than my current system (i.e. the Yamaha receiver I shared had a total of 630W output power). So does this mean that if I use that receiver for my setup, 630W is the maximum output? Or is there something else involved that I am not aware of?

My current knowledge is simply this: You buy a receiver, speakers, and a sub woofer, and connect them. Is there something else you add to the system to increase the power? Do you use an amplifier? How does that amplifier connect to your system / what does it do?

Thanks,
Dave

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post #16 of 16 Old 01-01-2012, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Commsysman

Thank you so so much! Indeed you have answered all of my questions! Now all I have to figure out is what ohms the speakers I am using will have, and find a receiver that matches that right? Because I read the AVR FAQ that someone mentioned, and it says that if you match up an 8 ohms receiver with a 4 ohms speaker set, you can possibly damage them.

Thanks again to everyone who posted, now I am no longer in the dark when it comes to this stuff!
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