List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 14Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 877 Old 12-07-2012, 12:33 PM
Senior Member
 
65 Electra Glide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not much point in that, as he's proven that he doesn't want to learn, he only wants to argue. He's a clever troll, because initially his first post or two in a thread give the appearance of his wanting to learn, but then with each successive post his argumentative agenda becomes clear. I saw that pattern emerge and put him on my block list after seeing it repeated in a half dozen threads. Do so and you'll see the page count in this thread reduced by 30%, and the intent of the OP restored.

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who's noticed this.
65 Electra Glide is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 877 Old 12-07-2012, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Your general tone in about a dozen posts. eek.gif

Not that sentence... I'm generally non-responsive to personal commentary as it distracts from the topic in a useless manner. I'm sure you meant your comment as constructive criticism; but it's simply not a productive topic.

I was confused where you were going with the rest of your post.
JerryLove is offline  
post #453 of 877 Old 12-07-2012, 02:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 256
The rest of my post was addressing what you said a few times: that you have non-HS speakers that compensate (somewhat) with high power, that you are happy with that and seem to want this thread to acknowledge as a means of achieving reference level. That was perfectly obvious, but you are looking for arguments everywhere...

psgcdn is offline  
post #454 of 877 Old 12-07-2012, 03:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

The rest of my post was addressing what you said a few times: that you have non-HS speakers that compensate (somewhat) with high power, that you are happy with that and seem to want this thread to acknowledge as a means of achieving reference level. That was perfectly obvious, but you are looking for arguments everywhere...

If that's what you've taken from my posts you have an incomplete understanding of what I've said (one which lies at odds with things I've said).

I don't think I've seen a definition of "high sensitivity" . I stated in a post that I can only assume that not of my speakers qualify.
I have not discussed compensating for anything. Go back to my first post on the thread and the question I was answering to understand how the power/sensitivity conversation came up.

I'm not looking for anything. I think people imagine tone and motivation through the lens of their own preconceived notions. As I rarely fall into well defined categories, it often frustrates people who launch off from one position of mine and assume I do. Then when I don't match the pigeon-hole they've imagined: the name calling and accusations begin.

For fun: go back to post 444 and try reading all the posts that are not mine. Imagine it's you that's being discussed in all those posts. Now tell me what seems adversarial and confrontational (or passive aggressive).

I do sometimes feel like an agnostic trying to have a conversation with religious zelots. I know I've seen more than one builder unwilling to discuss HS much specifically because of the zelotry and mud slung by a few.

Here's a question for you: Have I recommended to posters that they should peruse high-sensitivity speaker here on AVS in the last month? Have you been assuming I'm opposed to them in some way? Where did that assumption come from and how to you reconcile it with the three times this month I've specifically recommended that someone might be best served with high-sensitivity speakers?

I suspect this is my one and only post on my posts. I could be wrong, but I don't see the point of a meta-conversation about posts rather than their content.
JerryLove is offline  
post #455 of 877 Old 12-07-2012, 04:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
popalock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 3,904
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 850
Send a message via Skype™ to popalock
Eyleron,

Just wanted to that you again for starting this thread man. Learning a ton!
popalock is offline  
post #456 of 877 Old 12-07-2012, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Eyleron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minot, ND
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 42
I took the words "low distortion" out of the thread title, because I don't list distortion measurements. And goodness knows sine odd those speakers on the list are high distortion! I originally included that because using speakers that aren't bring used up to their limits decreases speaker distortion (and amp distortion!).

Note that in discussions with Teresa here I've included speakers that have lower sensitivity but high power handling. They will produce high SPL too... just with hundreds of watts.
Eyleron is online now  
post #457 of 877 Old 12-07-2012, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Eyleron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minot, ND
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Eyleron,
Just wanted to that you again for starting this thread man. Learning a ton!

You're welcome. I am learning a lot too! I used REW to do some crude distortion measurements but they were continuous sine wave tones. I want to try best tones next.
Eyleron is online now  
post #458 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 08:10 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

You're welcome. I am learning a lot too! I used REW to do some crude distortion measurements but they were continuous sine wave tones. I want to try best tones next.
HolmImpulse does distortion as one of the options in a frequency response sweep. You can even separately chart each THD component, 2nd through 10th harmonic.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #459 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 09:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Ok, so I went back...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

Likely yes: but go back to the claim I was disputing. The claim was that, for a given percent of maximum power (say 80%), a more sensitive speaker will always have less distortion than a less sensitive speaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

I can only deal with the assertion put in front of me. That assertion was that distortion would necessarily be higher on a 80db sensitive 100W speaker running 90W than it would be on a 90db sensitive 10W speaker running 9W given unlimited amp power... a claim which I fund both unsupportable and unsupported (though I make not comment as to what might "often" be the case as I don't know).
I am not sure where this claim came from, and how it is relevant. Let's try this:

To reach the same (reference level, so high) SPL, a higher sensitivity speakers will have less distortion (compression and otherwise) than a low sensitivity speaker.
You pointed out that this isn't necessarily true because a crossover can affect sensitivity. That's true enough.

I pointed out horn-loading, and Bill said that less excursion was used to achieve the same SPL in HE speakers (which is only true with horn-loading and the like; Chu pointed out that in fact more power was used to reach the same excursion and SPL in a low-sensitivity speakers relative to HE, thus implying changes in sensitivity in the crossover and the like and not horn-loading).

Many HE speakers use horn-loading and wave guides as a means to get there. In these cases, the cone displacement is less and along with that, distortion. If sensitivity is changed in the crossover (sucking up power at certain frequencies) then it's another ball game. Typically (a word you won't like), a 105 dB sensitivity 100W speaker playing at 10W peak will sound less compressed than a 88 dB sensitive speaker playing at 500W peaks. Low sensitivity doesn't scale well to vey high SPL; at some point the heat has to go somewhere.

psgcdn is offline  
post #460 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 09:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,961
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked: 595
All of this suggests that a useful metric for speakers would be compression charts of some sort. This might suggest more optimum crossover points.

Peter, did you read the comment I made where studies subsequent to Klipsh's work called into question aspects of his paper and further comments that suggested horn speakers tend to audibly mask distortion components that pistonic speakers tend to reveal?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
post #461 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 10:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1662
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I pointed out horn-loading, and Bill said that less excursion was used to achieve the same SPL in HE speakers (which is only true with horn-loading and the like;
Horn loading or using multiple drivers. With multiple drivers you get 6dB higher voltage sensitivity per doubling of driver count, which also translates to half the excursion per doubling of driver count for equal output. The advantage to multiple direct radiating drivers is ease of construction, the disadvantage is the cost of the drivers. Manufacturers long ago went to the multiple driver option, as for them using more drivers is less expensive than the labor costs of building horns. For the DIYer capable of building horns they're the less expensive route.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #462 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 10:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 256
True enough Bill, thanks.

Chu, I saw your post but did not investigate. Sure goes against my own personal observations whereby my horn speakers always reveal detail I had never noticed on other system , and Bill's horn-loaded design of the Tuba HT has the cleanest least boomy LFE I have experienced.

psgcdn is offline  
post #463 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Eyleron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minot, ND
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

HolmImpulse does distortion as one of the options in a frequency response sweep. You can even separately chart each THD component, 2nd through 10th harmonic.

Thanks, I'll check that out! 

I guess that means I don't need to download Linkwitz's shaped burst tone CD.

Eyleron is online now  
post #464 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Eyleron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minot, ND
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Ok, so I went back...
I am not sure where this claim came from, and how it is relevant. Let's try this:
To reach the same (reference level, so high) SPL, a higher sensitivity speakers will have less distortion (compression and otherwise) than a low sensitivity speaker.
You pointed out that this isn't necessarily true because a crossover can affect sensitivity. That's true enough.
I pointed out horn-loading, and Bill said that less excursion was used to achieve the same SPL in HE speakers (which is only true with horn-loading and the like; Chu pointed out that in fact more power was used to reach the same excursion and SPL in a low-sensitivity speakers relative to HE, thus implying changes in sensitivity in the crossover and the like and not horn-loading).
Many HE speakers use horn-loading and wave guides as a means to get there. In these cases, the cone displacement is less and along with that, distortion. If sensitivity is changed in the crossover (sucking up power at certain frequencies) then it's another ball game. Typically (a word you won't like), a 105 dB sensitivity 100W speaker playing at 10W peak will sound less compressed than a 88 dB sensitive speaker playing at 500W peaks. Low sensitivity doesn't scale well to vey high SPL; at some point the heat has to go somewhere.

I think JerryLove will take issue with saying "a higher sensitivity speaker will have less distortion than a low sensitivity speaker."

For instance, if both speakers are well well beneath their operating limits, why will the lower sensitivity speaker distort more? 

 

And there's speculation over whether those two different speakers should also exhibit equivalent amount of distortion, since each is operating at 90% of their limit. 

 

So, this would be interesting: Graph THD for those two speakers at different levels of power and see how distortion manifests itself at: 10% watts, 50% watts, 100% watts, 200% watts.

And look at long term compression (which is what JBL showed on their speakers) as well as short term compression.

Eyleron is online now  
post #465 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

I think JerryLove will take issue with saying "a higher sensitivity speaker will have less distortion than a low sensitivity speaker."
For instance, if both speakers are well well beneath their operating limits, why will the lower sensitivity speaker distort more? 
Reference level means that the low sensitivity speaker won't be well beneath it operating limits. You'd need 670Watts to get 105 dB from a 88 sensitivity speaker 12 feet away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

And there's speculation over whether those two different speakers should also exhibit equivalent amount of distortion, since each is operating at 90% of their limit. 
A 105 dB sensitivity speaker will require 13 watts to get 105 dB 12 feet away, 50 times less. It will be well beneath it operating limits. Unless you can give me an example of a HE 20Watt speaker from the list? wink.gif

psgcdn is offline  
post #466 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 05:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1662
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Unless you can give me an example of a HE 20Watt speaker from the list? wink.gif
Fostex, though I don't see any on the list. Highly valued by those using 10 watt and lower SET amps.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #467 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Eyleron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minot, ND
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Reference level means that the low sensitivity speaker won't be well beneath it operating limits. You'd need 670Watts to get 105 dB from a 88 sensitivity speaker 12 feet away.
A 105 dB sensitivity speaker will require 13 watts to get 105 dB 12 feet away, 50 times less. It will be well beneath it operating limits. Unless you can give me an example of a HE 20Watt speaker from the list? wink.gif

Granted that example theoretical case of 2 speakers with 10db different sensitivity and 10x power handling is pretty extreme.

Humor me with a 3db difference and 2x power handling, then. A 90db 400w versus a 93db 200w.
Eyleron is online now  
post #468 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 06:55 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,743
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 504
I don't consider either a high sensitivity speaker.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
MKtheater is online now  
post #469 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 09:09 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1662
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I don't consider either a high sensitivity speaker.
+1. There's no set definition but most agree that 95dB the lowest that should be considered high sensitivity. Still, many horn purists call that medium sensitivity, with 100dB or more being high sensitivity.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #470 of 877 Old 12-08-2012, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Eyleron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minot, ND
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Right. Regardless of threshold of what, today, we call high or low sensitivity...
Will one see the same amount of distortion between the 2 speakers if they are both driven to the same percentage of their limits?
Eyleron is online now  
post #471 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 12:02 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,743
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 504
You can't tell just based on sensitivity and power. You need to know what type of drivers and how linear they maintain while putting more power to them. I mean just because a speaker is 90 dBs sensitive with a max power of 400 watts does not mean it will take all that power cleanly, nevermind holding its natural response. Maybe it hit 400 watts and max spl at 500 hz only and the rest were compressed. The only way to know for sure is to measure THD and do sweeps for when your speakers or subs will compress. How many times do you see people posting a graph at 80 dBs being flat to 10hz to 100hz. Nice but will it Maintain that response when running at spirited levels? All speakers and subs will fall apart at some point. I think Tom Danley mentioned something like 1/8 or 1/10 of the power will start to show effects of compression. Well there is a reason these high powered and high sensitivity speakers exist. I just added T-39's to my surrounds(W8's) and the sound from them now have awesome full powerful sound with slamming Midbass, why does it matter, because I had enough spl for reference already but now I raised the bottom to match the top and wow!

Again, when speakers are close in max spl then it matters what Drivers, crossovers, etc.. Are used.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
MKtheater is online now  
post #472 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 06:58 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Right. Regardless of threshold of what, today, we call high or low sensitivity...
Will one see the same amount of distortion between the 2 speakers if they are both driven to the same percentage of their limits?
That begs the question: What are their limits? You can't tell that from the thermal power ratings. You can easily find 500w rated woofers that will reach 10% THD with only 50w input, and 250w rated woofers that will take 250w without reaching 10% THD. So just as manufacturer sensitivity ratings without SPL charts to back them up are worthless, so are manufacturer thermal power ratings when actual measured power at 10% THD is what matters.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #473 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 08:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. There's no set definition but most agree that 95dB the lowest that should be considered high sensitivity. Still, many horn purists call that medium sensitivity, with 100dB or more being high sensitivity.
+1

Thus my example of 105 dB.

psgcdn is offline  
post #474 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 08:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1662
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

+1
Thus my example of 105 dB.
Not bad, but MKs stacked DR250s gets him to over 109dB/w, per stack. He can get reference from a 15w Lepai running off a battery. eek.gif

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #475 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Active I suppose. Doesn't the required EQ eat up a lot of that headroom? (I recall MK mentioning EQ) For example I could drive the Tuba HT to reference with 10W, but my room response is pretty bad (and placement options limited by the sheer size of the THT) and so I aggressively EQ to get the best response and have up to 13 dB of gain at a certain frequency (!!). I have to admit the EQ was done uisng a Radio Shack SPL meter as the microphone, with dubious corrections (still a fairly linear gradation) so it needs to be redone with a proper mic, and then the room addressed with bass traps until I can cut some of that EQ. Still, the headroom was there to play it and I used it to get the best sound. And it sounds great!

psgcdn is offline  
post #476 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
What's being talked circles around is this:

Different speakers distort in different ways, and at different points relative to their max power handling, and there is nothing in sensitivity or max power handling or the like that will tell you how or how fast that distortion will kick in.

A 94db sensitive speaker may or may not get louder with lower distortion than the 96db sensitive speaker next to it. There is no way to tell from the information given. In some general sense, there likely is a trend favoring high sensitivity (certainly extreme differences in sensitivity would be difficult to overcome other ways), but that generalization cannot be assumed true for a specific pair of speakers.

Also: it's not always clear what percentage of power handling a driver is actually at.
Not all drivers in a cabinet are equally sensitive, and it's possible that some drivers are actually being run at a smaller fraction of overall power than the speaker is.
Even within the driver that is the limiting factor, it's not uncommon to deliberately reduce sensitivity via crossover to extend the -3db point.

Thke a 96db driver that is -3 at 60 hz and is -9db at 50Hz. Run the whole thing -6db in the crossover with a rising slope from 50Hz to 65Hz, and you get what appears to be a 90db sensitive driver that's -3db @50hz.

Do you really think distortion at SPL above 60Hz is at all changed by this? Of course it isn't, yet sensitivity is actually lower.
JerryLove is offline  
post #477 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 10:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

certainly extreme differences in sensitivity would be difficult to overcome other ways
Exactly. 105 dB vs 88 dB sensitivity makes a pretty generalized comparison; there's no point in comparing 94 dB vs 96 dB.

psgcdn is offline  
post #478 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 10:47 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,743
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 504
I will assume that we are not comparing a 20,000 speaker that is rated at 88 dBs at 1 watt and can take say 2000 watts compared to a $200 speaker with 95 dBs. Why? Because I would hope that the expensive speaker does not use a driver that would fall apart before any signifcant power being used and that $200 speaker might be using crappy drivers that are rated for 400 watts but could only take 40 watts in reality(As Bill mentioned). It always depends on the drivers used but we are saying there are many excellent drivers for cheap that will not only take good amounts of power but don't need to because they will play loud with 10 watts. When this happens the drivers don't move much which keeps their THD down and much cleaner.

BTW,
Bill is close to my sensitivity in my room, I am at 112 dBs from 100 dBs and up. I use about 4 watts for reference and just in case I am using my 500 watt per channel amp on them. It delivers pure class A the whole time because it uses so little power. It switches at 50 watts to AB. I will tell you something, I just added my T-39's to my W8's for surrounds and the surrounds sound amazing now with that kick from 80-200hz! Best surrounds ever!

EQ will lower sensitivity but the headroom will always be there but I never use the headroom needed. I can tell you guys that I got a full 6 dbs increase adding the second DR-250. The clarity and dynamics are off the charts. I have owned other high sensitivity speakers and these are much more sensitive and dynamic. These are almost 10 dBs more sensitive than my JBL's and 13 dBs more than my eD's. Those were the most sensitive prior to the BFM stuff. Oh, and these sound better to boot.

One more thing, I just had my friend over who has hearing good up to 24khz(I call him dog ears) and he has been with me since I first built my theater and we A/B systems or speakers and subs every step of the way noticing the pros and cons of each system or whether I downgraded rather than upgraded(I have done that a couple times as well). I threw in some demos yesterday and he was puzzled, he looked at me and said what did you do and I said I added the T-39's to the surrounds and I tweaked my EQ for the center and subs. He then said this is the best it has ever sound and don't you change a thing! He said I am not kidding, it is not even close, the energy, clarity, dynamics, are all much better than ever. The detail is much better as well. This happens to be the most sensitive system I have put together as well.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
MKtheater is online now  
post #479 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 12:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zheka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago burbs
Posts: 1,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 23
MK

W8 and T-39, I am guessing they are Bill's wedge 8 and Titan-39 horn sub. If this is correct, how much room a single combo takes? I vaguely recall you did not have much space for the surrounds. have you thought of dropping the eD subs and going BFM all the way?
zheka is offline  
post #480 of 877 Old 12-09-2012, 12:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,743
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

MK
W8 and T-39, I am guessing they are Bill's wedge 8 and Titan-39 horn sub. If this is correct, how much room a single combo takes? I vaguely recall you did not have much space for the surrounds. have you thought of dropping the eD subs and going BFM all the way?

I have the 22 inch wide T-39's. they stand in the back corners toed in. My subs go to 5hz so I won't be changing.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
MKtheater is online now  
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off