List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 824 Old 01-16-2012, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

...Should he test each speaker himself to double verify their claims?

Umm, actually, I am okay with testing the speakers myself. Just substitute my basement for the N.R.C. and let me keep each speaker set for a month.

Oh, and I'll start at the top of the list.
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post #62 of 824 Old 01-16-2012, 04:04 PM
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The problem most have is admitting that their speakers are not great for dynamic HT because they have expensive or nice sounding speakers for music, not loud. We all have our different tastes as to what loud is. Still, 90 dB's is 90dB's, whether one is directed and the other is directed and reflected sound. The first will just sound better. Just like 90 pounds is 90 pounds no matter what the object is. Like I said goals are goals, we all have to determine what are peak spl's are and then go from there. If your peaks are 90dB's then your choices are more abundant. It really is simple. This is a great thread! If your speaker has 85 dB sensitivity and 200 watt power then reference will not be realized even up close and personal. Like I said, measure your room and spl's, you can see how much you lose at the listening position from the speakers and go from there. Low sensitivity speakers can sound dynamic but they need lots of power if going loud, can it really handle all that power and are you really giving it the power needed?
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post #63 of 824 Old 01-16-2012, 04:10 PM
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I've read a lot of talk referring to reference, regarding this specific conversation about this log we should decide what reference level is.
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post #64 of 824 Old 01-16-2012, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.myers View Post

I would be more interested in great detail like hearing a pin drop rather then shatter my windows or have the nails pop out of the house framing lol.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that a high sensitivity speaker cannot handle that as well (or even sound great with music).

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post #65 of 824 Old 01-16-2012, 05:18 PM
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Eyleron,

Thanks for putting this all together. It's hard to quantify just how much more enjoyable a film is when you have a sound sytem that performs cleanly at high volumes. This includes, of course, the room, the speakers/subs, and the electronics. I've used the example before, but I can tolerate and even enjoy a movie like Pride and Prejudice with my wife in my theater thanks to my system's capabilities, let alone other flicks like Tron and Hurt Locker which are more up my alley. The clarity of the dialogue and the realism of dynamic scenes contributes more than you'd ever know until you've experienced it in person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

I've read a lot of talk referring to reference, regarding this specific conversation about this log we should decide what reference level is.

Here's a link to a good discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1373016

Here's a quote from a post by Mark Seaton, an exceedingly knowledgeable guy with the rare ability to explain things well on the internet:

"The "level" aspect of the reference defines that a known recorded signal, for home typically -30dB of Full Scale which is the digital maximum recorded level. Band limited pink noise at an average level of -30dB is intended to deliver 75dBC-slow at the listening position. Add 30dB to this number and you get the 105dB per speaker at the listener potential maximum.

Being a continuous pink noise signal measured with an SPL meter in an averaging setting (=slow), this will include the reflected energy. While the average level of continuous pink noise will be the same in a heavily treated room as it will be in a reflective room, short duration and more dynamic material will then sound louder in the reflective room, as the lingering sound will pollute the quiet parts."
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post #66 of 824 Old 01-16-2012, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm glad you answered that and linked to a great thread. I hate to get drawn so far off track on the "what's" and "why's" when there are already so many threads dealing with those topics.

There are already a lot of issues and questions here just with a list, calculations, and these speakers!
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post #67 of 824 Old 01-16-2012, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

There are other "main line" speakers which have been ignored ... Triad and Genelec for example.

Added three Genelec to the google spreadsheet. Had to extrapolate sensitivity because they're active.

Added one Triad but will add more.

And I for sure need to get more Seatons on there like Sparks. And Danley's.

What other manufacturers would you expect to see? Any favorite go-to speakers at the $1,000 $2,000 $4,000 (or small/medium/large room) price points / requirements?
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post #68 of 824 Old 01-17-2012, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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New Speakers:
JBL Pro Monitors and Cinema (just a start, got many more to add, some discontinued and on the used market)!

New Fields:
Active or Passive; Original Purpose (Cinema, Home, Live, Monitor)

 

Reference-Capable-Speakers-1_5.pdf 454.3125k . file
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post #69 of 824 Old 01-17-2012, 10:43 PM
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You can add QSC KW-122's to the list, or all the qsc k and kw speakers for that matter.
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post #70 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 02:37 AM
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Can you explain the color coding? I've done a quick review of the thread and still don't see any commentary about what the colors mean.

If there is some meaning, I'd suggest a color code on the chart itself with your numbers so it will be there to reference.

If it's only to make the chart prettier, well.... it worked.
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post #71 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 03:03 AM
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Possible column to add, whether the model is discontinued or not?

Either way great thread thanks for taking the time to compile.
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post #72 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

Can you explain the color coding? I've done a quick review of the thread and still don't see any commentary about what the colors mean.

If there is some meaning, I'd suggest a color code on the chart itself with your numbers so it will be there to reference.

If it's only to make the chart prettier, well.... it worked.

I'm glad you asked, because this is one of many issues with which I need help.

In Flux
Like any project that is rushed out the door, the color coding has changed. It started as quick conditional formatting, and then as more data was added, I saw I was being inconsistent in colors, and I've tried to address that over the weekend. And I want feedback on the data presentation, so I expect more changes are in order.

Ha, and the question just prompted me to look at the ranges and see if Green = 105db, and I saw that the "100 Watts dB" column had 105 as yellow. This is due to how Google treats the number '105' with respect to 'less than 105db' and 'more than 105db.' It apparently was placing 105db in the yellow bin. I've updated the spreadsheet to use 104.99 as yellow.

Make Visual Sense of Data
One purpose of the color coding is to convey more rapidly the relative differences between the numbers. It's more difficult to discern patterns in a sea of black text little numbers.
To this effect, some kind of gradient needed to be applied using conditional formatting.

If Google had some sort of auto-coloring: "pick range granularity, toggle low=good or low=bad, pick low color, mid color, high color," it could do its own "color-normalization" of the data. Alas, it doesn't so I'm left to pick the ranges.

I chose reds for "badder" and blue for "gooder," Oranges are "not as bad," yellows "almost good enough," greens "reached acceptable," light blues "more than good enough," and super blue "superlative."

While this is dividing the available specs, and calculated fields, up into ranges, there's still a judgement call being made by what's considered "acceptable." Many publications avoid this by not passing any judgement and just presenting the "sea of numbers." But I think part of the purpose of this list is educational.

I also did a manual normalization by noticing, for instance, a lot of one color green, and very few speakers using, say, yellow. So I adjusted the ranges for that column so that a more-equal number of speakers fell into each color range.

Judgement
Another purpose was to provide some sort of editorial judgement call.

By default, I'm aiming for 105db from 12 feet. But the other sheet named "Calcs" in the document has the values that are used in the calculations: 105db, 12ft, etc. Changing these would change the "watts to reach 105db" calc and all the SPLs that are calculated from 12ft. For instance, if your listening position was 15 feet, you could change that value, and the SPLs would drop. Unfortunately, changing the 105db target wouldn't render the colors as meaningful, because the conditional formatting ranges are static and not formulaic (eg referencing a field of data).

I inwardly wince at each area that I'm passing judgement. But the pragmatic reality is that there are already subjective, loose definitions involves, such as "High SPL" and "High Dynamics." I thought it too narrow to say, "These speakers that will do 105db at some distance 'Pass' and these that don't 'Fail'. So the color gradient is a way to more gently make these distinctions.

Anomaly Detection
While this is more related to the first point, that it more rapidly conveys info, I found it interesting that some speakers stuck out like sore thumbs. In a sea of blue, for instance, they'd have some spec that was orange.

In some cases, to my chagrin, it was a data-entry problem, either copying from the published spec, or my previous manual process of using an SPL calculator (this is now automatically calculated from distance/watts/sensitivity).

But in other cases, it serves to highlight speakers that are extraordinary in some fashion. For instance, the only way that a low-power-handling speaker can end up at the top of the list (eg if sorted by "Watts & Db") is if its sensitivity was amazing, like 103dB. Examples of this are the Klipschorn, Cornwall, and Fostex LS/2. You also have cases of low sensitivity and high power handling, such as the ElectroVoice ZX-1 and Energy RC-10. And there you see the purpose of the "watts to reach 105db" and "100 watts db": I wanted to easily highlight to people that a speaker might be capable of reaching 105db within its power-handling capabilities, but it's going to require a bigger amp than what's in the typical 100 watt receiver. More educated viewers should be able to make their own judgement that "Oh, it requires 300 watts per channel? I've heard this is a great speaker, and I happen to have three 300wpc amps."

Questions
What do y'all think of the ranges, the coloring?

What do y'all think of comparing these speakers in terms of reaching 105db? For instance, we could instead pick 100db, but then you'd always have people coming in saying, "Hey, I thought reference level was 105?!"

What can be improved about the coloring?

I hesitated to colorize the price and scoring. The price, because as a number by itself, I don't know that it should be treated as bad or good. Although I do incorporate it to various extents in the scoring. And the scoring itself, well it's too in flux and subjective. Which is another topic.

Thanks!
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post #73 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

You can add QSC KW-122's to the list, or all the qsc k and kw speakers for that matter.

Definitely. I remember noting them, and I had one started in a hidden row. I think I back-burnered because they were active, or difficult to get the specs or pricing for?

Definitely on my list for ones to add. Thanks for steering me to appropriate model lines. That helps a lot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.myers View Post

Possible column to add, whether the model is discontinued or not?

I've added on in Google (not published in PDF yet...I save that for every day or two).

Where do you think it should go? After the model? At the right-end of the sheet? Or would a color coding on the price work better?
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post #74 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 08:41 AM
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First, good idea. I've long sang the praises of the clear benefits of such designs for HT use. I've compiled my own list of speakers of interest.

In my search for the highest quality, low distortion, high output mains, I've looked at a long list of potential suitors. One such prospect, Salk's Pharos, would certainly deserve a look if one were so inclined. JBL based LF section, PHL mid, and a Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeter. The claimed sensitivity is 95db, and Salk typically is respected around the community. I've no personal experience with it, and it exceeds my mains budget, I merely appreciate the design premise.

Does it fit what this thread is all about? I don't know, but I just wanted to point it out for those not familiar with it.

Thanks for compiling all this.

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post #75 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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So, I added a few Genelec speakers (I know there are more to add), and I have some questions about them.

Genelec manufactures an active speakers, which means they come with amplifiers that are matched to the capabilities of the speaker, and of each driver.

Genelec Conundrum
I'm wondering how to translate their SPL output and watts numbers into the spreadsheet list. And this applies in general to active speakers, as well as questions about interpreting continuous power, program or "music" power, and peak power ratings, too.

Let's look at the Genelec 1038CF:
  • Maximum short time sine wave acoustic output at 1 m on axis in half space, averaged from 100 Hz to 3 kHz: >= 118db
  • Maximum peak acoustic output per pair with music material: >=124db
  • Amp Power: Bass: 180w
  • Amp Power: Midrange: 120w
  • Amp Power: Midrange: 120w

Other company's speakers I was able to extrapolate like I'm trying to do here, and came up with a sensitivity, using their amp watts, that worked for their SPL output ratings.

Is Output Limited by the Bass Amp / Woofer?

I think it's the woofer (bass) that has the most difficulty in handling power and achieving higher sensitivity (is this generalization true?! Or is it true only for compression drivers / waveguide / horns, and rather soft dome tweeters may be the "weak link" in other designs?). Thus, I'm only looking at the bass amp for watt specs for these SPL calcs.

Which "Watts" Are These?
I don't know if their 180w is "continuous," "program" (which seems to be usually 2x continuous, or 1/2 peak?), or "peak" (which seems to be usually 2x program).

Watts/Sensitivity Don't Work for Both Published SPL Ratings
Using the Peak SPL Calculator, if I plug in 3.3 feet, 90 watts (assuming the 180 watts was "program" and they're using half that, continuous for this spec), I need to use a sensitivity of "96" to get to 118db. And that's "near wall" (I switched to this in case it helped, but it didn't).

Then, to achieve their 124db at 6.6 feet, with 2 speakers, I can't get loud enough unless I choose 720 watts. Which is twice what their peak watts of 360 should've been.

If instead, I make it work first for the 124db, I can choose 720 watts, but the 118db can't be achieved with that sensitivity. 180w is too much power, and it gets 3db too loud (121db).

So, what's y'all's interpretation of their numbers? Can you come up with a sensitivity that works for both 118db (1 speaker 1 meter) and 124db (2 speakers 2 meters)?

Thanks!
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post #76 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 09:03 AM
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Others would be the Tannoy Install version of their 12" coax, heard it at Cedia, for quite some time in the front and center sweet spot,....liked it. Robust, no nonsense cabinet. Their coaxial technology is very refined,...sweet. Three of those across the front is simple, powerful, and aesthetically ideal for those that don't care

Next, the various mains from Pro Audio Tech. Their 12" two way comp HF in an OS waveguide would be pretty nice in virtually any LCR application. They also have a variety of inwalls, and bigger monsters and I'd think they may all fall within the high clean output category. At Cedia, they demoed their smallest double 6" two way/compression tweeter inwall,...and it was terrific. Just sayin' Oh yeah, their top of the line stuff,...pretty cool...coaxial, two-way compression HF drives.

Thanks

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Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #77 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

First, good idea. I've long sang the praises of the clear benefits of such designs for HT use. I've compiled my own list of speakers of interest.

Actually, my PMs with cmryan821 about his ElectroVoice ZX-1 led to his suggesting I contact you about using pro speakers, due to your experience with pro sound and their speakers. I was about to reach out to you anyway for advice on such speakers and this list, so I appreciate you stopping by!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

In my search for the highest quality, low distortion, high output mains, I've looked at a long list of potential suitors. One such prospect, Salk's Pharos, would certainly deserve a look if one were so inclined. JBL based LF section, PHL mid, and a Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeter. The claimed sensitivity is 95db, and Salk typically is respected around the community. I've no personal experience with it, and it exceeds my mains budget, I merely appreciate the design premise.

Does it fit what this thread is all about? I don't know, but I just wanted to point it out for those not familiar with it.

Thanks for compiling all this.

I think any speaker, given the sensitivity, or power handling, sufficient to be considered a "high dynamics" theater speaker should be on this list, so I appreciate this suggestion.

Can you point me to what the Pharos' power handling specs might be? While Salk does briefly mention such for other speakers, I didn't see it for this one.

And I suppose I need to start including info about the HF component of these speakers, like soft dome, compression driver, ribbon!

Thanks!
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post #78 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been torn about what the bottom threshold of this list is.

On the one hand, if it's labeled "Reference-Capable Speakers," it suggests that the list contains just those speakers, however that's defined:
Can hit 105db with its "peak watts."
I use peak watts because we're talking about sound track peaks, not sustained sound.
Or, would you define the cut-off (if there was one) at some other point? Include up to 95db (-10 from reference level, 12 feet)?

On the other hand, I find it very edifying to see where other speakers fall by including more marginal ones. For instance, Paradigm is excited about their new Series 7 Monitor line of speakers they rolled out last year. What's not so exciting to me is that low power handling and low sensitivity. It's a big drop from past versions of the Monitor line. What gives? Do they hate high dynamics home theaters now?

So, I was including a few other speakers that were popular, were promoted a bunch, or even my own, just to see how they do on the list, and to provide some point of comparison.

If a speaker isn't seen on the list, is one to assume "It was evaluated, and didn't "make the cut"? Or would they assume that someone hasn't evaluated this 89db 150 peak watt speaker yet, and it may be a contender? Both are valid assumptions!

The problem with this method (which I've sort've used) is that then one says, "Oh, this speaker's 'on the list,' it does well for this application. Rather the list is "Some selected speakers evaluated for how they perform for home theater high spl high dynamics." But that sound kludgey.

I hoped that being colored in red, at the bottom of the list, was enough indicator that while the speaker is listed here, it performs poorly [by these criteria/ranking].

Thoughts?
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post #79 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 12:35 PM
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Sounds right to me.

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post #80 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 12:54 PM
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Maybe there should be allowance for some headroom? My requirements were not just to play reference volume, but to behave when doing doing it.

The "Twinseltown" Theater
Construction Thread
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post #81 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Maybe there should be allowance for some headroom? My requirements were not just to play reference volume, but to behave when doing doing it.

Agreed! If you say for people that listen at -10MV then that will include many more speakers. reference levels is where the men separate from the boys as dynamics and kick your butt are concerned. I would only list speakers that have a reputation to do this and sound good doing it! Just listing speakers that can hit 105dB's peak? Where? Reference levels means 105 dB's peak at the seats, everyone has different seating distances and rooms. I need 117 dB's to hit 105 dB's peak so many speakers are off the list for me. I usually try them to be sure. Again, speakers usually can't hit their max or peak levels cleanly so the louder they go the better reference will sound. If you listen below reference you still know these will rock your room either way. Maggies sound great, but can't play loud unless you sit very close. Should we list them for people who don't need reference? No, great for music at moderate levels though, or movies for moderate levels. I know, I tried them. At reference they did not blow up, just compresses all the dynamics. They never scared me during any scene, just clear sound. I guess that is OK if you never heard that clarity with dynamics!
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post #82 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Maybe there should be allowance for some headroom? My requirements were not just to play reference volume, but to behave when doing doing it.

1st, I agree with this.
2nd, I was going to say something a little more verbose (it's my lifes affliction to be verbose) but wasn't sure how to word it....the above might be it very succinctly. We'll find out, here goes:

What about a rating of percent of performance at the stated level.

What I mean by this is... if you take a Honda car and strap a one ton trailer behind its bumper and load the trailer and pull it up a long incline.... you might make it to the top however, the car will be using 90% of it's power to do so, even if the top speed is only 12 mph.

Take same trailer, same hill, same challenge and put it behind a 1970's musclecar and now all the sudden, this more powerful car will be not only to go up the slope with less stress on the engine (overhead) but will also be able to do the hill faster, easier and overall, more efficiently with less duress (distortion)

So, if you use "X" db's at 12 feet above then could you easily calculate the theoretical percent of stress on a given speaker to do that.

If a 98 speaker can make X db's at 12 feet but, it uses "Y" watts to do so and is rated at W total watts, then you'd have Y/W or say, 45% of rated input power to do this.

Contrast then to another speaker at 100 db, it will take "Z" watts to make the same sound and if its rated watts is "W" then Z/W might be 10% on this speaker.

The WHOLE reason I'm bringing this up is.....

I'd contend (right or wrong) that a speaker that can meet your needs with the least stress means the speaker is working much more within its limits and consequently, the amp might be more in its limits. Overall, this might lower some distortions that the higher stressed example might provide.

Making sense?

Me? Verbose?


pffffft.... I ain't even started yet!
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post #83 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 04:42 PM
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^^^ neither the Honda or muscle car are suited for such a task. I'll take a Marauder thank you very much

Sorry had too
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post #84 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 04:57 PM
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Just to post some lesser known speakers:

Selah Audio Symmetrica
98db / 4 ohms / 3-300watts (also since it's a line array distance loss is linear)

GR Research Super V
97db / 8 ohm / no rating given
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post #85 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 05:41 PM
 
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I have no dog in this fight (yet), but there are a great many errors here, too many to encompass.
For one, the starting point would be measured voltage sensitivity (2.83), not "sensitivity as spec'd by the manufacturer". Then there is calculated free space on axis propagation losses...except the speakers won't be in free space. And then...
Oh well. Not pooh poohing the effort, as it is sincere. But unless technically accurate, could be somewhat misleading.
My 2c of course.

cheers,

AJ
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post #86 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Maybe there should be allowance for some headroom? My requirements were not just to play reference volume, but to behave when doing doing it.

I actually have to headroom-ish specs:
"% Watts Peak" [to get to 105db]
and "1/8 Peak Watts (start cmprsn) dB"

These are poorly named and probably poorly positioned columns.

% Peak Watts to Output 105db
The first, percentage of peak watts required to get to 105db [at 12 feet], indicates the extent of headroom. I used peak watts, because that's what we're talking about: peak db.

Let's pick on the Paradigm Series 7 Monitor 7. This is a tower speaker. Should be great for a dynamic home theater, right?
  • Sensitivity: 88db
  • Peak Watts: 180
Hmm. Would needs 670 watts to reach 105db from 12 feet away. We show that'd be 362% of its rated peak watts of 180. It's a red number. The speaker is at the bottom of the list. While I'm sure it sounds very nice at middlin' volume for music and movies, not good.

Let's try another. Ascend Acoustics' CMT-340 SE.
  • Sensitivity: 90db
  • Peak Watts: 400
Now we're doing better. This would only need 423 watts, which is 106% of its rated watts. So, you have slightly negative headroom: it can do it, but it's straining to do so. This should result in distortion.

Last, let's look at at Triad's InRoom LCR Gold.
  • Sensitivity: 95db
  • Peak Watts: 500
Not only is it more than twice as sensitive, it can also handle a few more watts. It needs 134 for watts to reach reference level from 12 feet. I'm not sure how the dynamic power of an amp and its capacitors work, but this sounds like it may even be within reach of a properly spec'd 100 watt receiver! Its Percent Watts Peak is 27%, and its color is a light blue. It's loafin!

Keep in mind, too, that if I change the "desired db" value from 105db to 100db (if I want to target -5db as my listening level), the Ascend CMT-340 only needs 134 watts, which is 33% of its peak watt handling.

Paradigm Monitor 7: 212 watts, 118% of its peak watts handling. Capable, but we know it's going to be strained, with some reduced dynamics.
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post #87 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post


Last, let's look at at Triad's InRoom LCR Gold.
  • Sensitivity: 95db
  • Peak Watts: 500

Umm the current Triad gold lcr is
  • Sensitivity: 92db
  • Peak Watts: 250

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irglcr.html

Are you meaning the platinum which is:
  • Sensitivity: 94.5db
  • Peak Watts: 500
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post #88 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I have no dog in this fight (yet), but there are a great many errors here, too many to encompass.

I bet, given enough time, we could get them hammered out!
I've been begging for help on this kind of stuff, so I am glad you stopped by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

For one, the starting point would be measured voltage sensitivity (2.83), not "sensitivity as spec'd by the manufacturer".

Well, when the spec is given as "2.83 v 1 meter anechoic," I used that spec. If the only spec is "sensitivity (half-space)" I dropped it by 3db. Except sometimes other models of that manufacturer did specify both, and the half space was only 2db more than the anechoic, so that'd make me revisit those numbers.

If the company has a line of speakers whose marketing "spec-ers" are known to be lying liars who lie...*cough*...klipsch...*cough* then I dropped all their sensitivities down to match what people say anecdotally and as measured in reviews. Notice I didn't indict the entire company (I hear their heritage line and THX line can be trusted), just the Reference line. I'll probably trust their Cinema line, too.

If a company wants to be vague and coy about their numbers, I hope that the errors are on the side of punishing them!

The great thing is, people can help contribute to correcting these sort of errors, whether my interpretation errors or the company's marketing. "This speaker was tested by the blah blah, here, and you'll see its measured sensitivity anechoic is X."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Then there is calculated free space on axis propagation losses...except the speakers won't be in free space.

Can you explain what you mean by this and what the implications are? Is this what Dennis was saying above, how the loss in db is not linear across the frequency range [due to more loss of high frequency]?

Is this addressed by the fact that the speakers are all being treated equally in this respect (good for comparing them with each other, not accurate for definitively knowing that "given this test signal I'll get exactly this many db with this many watts in my home")?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

And then...
Oh well.

It's probably good you gave up there. I have enough questions and issues swirling around this week. But I do want to do as good a job as I can, given time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Not pooh poohing the effort, as it is sincere. But unless technically accurate, could be somewhat misleading.

As I suggested above, I don't care so much about this being an absolute reference to be used by an acoustician in designing a room. I'll even take "somewhat misleading" over:
  • Many enthusiests being totally unaware of how compressed their sound is, using speakers that otherwise sound good and review well
  • Manufacturers playing spec games where the parameters change even within one speaker, let alone from speaker to speaker, line to line. I say, make a good product for what its intended for, and tell people about it, honestly.
  • The industry's general unwillingness to address this. It's like a world where most of the car manufacturers only make cars that go 0-60 in 10 seconds and max out at 100 mph. And the auto reviewers only review cars by driving them like timid grandmothers.
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post #89 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 06:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Let's pick on the Paradigm Series 7 Monitor 7. This is a tower speaker. Should be great for a dynamic home theater, right?
  • Sensitivity: 88db (spec'd, free space)
  • Peak Watts: 180 Using what standard?(spec'd, most likely full bandwidth, possibly not used as such)
Hmm. Would needs 670 watts to reach 105db from 12 feet away. (Free space calculation, no compression)
We show that'd be 362% of its rated peak watts of 180. It's a red number. The speaker is at the bottom of the list. While I'm sure it sounds very nice at middlin' volume for music and movies, not good. Except no one listens to an uncompressed single speaker free space

Last, let's look at at Triad's InRoom LCR Gold.
  • Sensitivity: 95db Volatge sensitivity? Spec'd or measured?
  • Peak Watts: 500 Using what standard? Calculated or measured?

etc, etc.
Apples, oranges?

cheers,

AJ
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post #90 of 824 Old 01-18-2012, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estand View Post

Umm the current Triad gold lcr is
  • Sensitivity: 92db
  • Peak Watts: 250

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irglcr.html

Are you meaning the platinum which is:
  • Sensitivity: 94.5db
  • Peak Watts: 500

Eep! I must've had a couple Triad pages open (I often have 20-30 browser tabs open in two monitors, esp. lately!) and copied the wrong numbers.

Corrected in spreadsheet. And I added the Platinum. Although, I do see that the Platinum is reviewed / test as lower sensitivity by a couple db.

What do you guys think I should use as its sensitivity? 92db or 94db?
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