List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 958 Old 04-29-2015, 12:55 AM
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I would like to add JBL4722n speakers to this list. Great for cinema and music and highly sensitive so they can be ran with a receiver or external amp.
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post #932 of 958 Old 04-29-2015, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fish5225 View Post
Please add the Tannoy definition DC 10 ti's to your list. I brought my pair home Friday night and they sound spectacular at reference level. I know you have the definition 12 inch wall install on the list but these floor stands also handle the power beautifully.
The Tannoys were some of the first speakers added. Sure, I can add the middle child too! "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!"

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post #933 of 958 Old 04-29-2015, 01:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
I would like to add JBL4722n speakers to this list. Great for cinema and music and highly sensitive so they can be ran with a receiver or external amp.
The JBL's are naturally also among the first added years ago. I don't know when I added the 4722n, but it's on the Google spreadsheet.

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post #934 of 958 Old 04-29-2015, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish5225 View Post
Please add the Tannoy definition DC 10 ti's to your list. I brought my pair home Friday night and they sound spectacular at reference level. I know you have the definition 12 inch wall install on the list but these floor stands also handle the power beautifully.
I've always liked something about Tannoy ever since I heard one of there monitors ( don't know model num) years ago and was impressed. I'd love to hear the DC-10s in my theater compared to my JBL 4670Ds I recently parted together from used.

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post #935 of 958 Old 04-29-2015, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess the Tannoy would sound more "point-source-y" and less "wall of sound" ?

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post #936 of 958 Old 04-29-2015, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
I guess the Tannoy would sound more "point-source-y" and less "wall of sound" ?
Prolly so, and more refined perhaps and smoother. Curious bout the midbass of the Tannoy too.

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post #937 of 958 Old 05-01-2015, 02:44 PM
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I've always liked something about Tannoy ever since I heard one of there monitors ( don't know model num) years ago and was impressed. I'd love to hear the DC-10s in my theater compared to my JBL 4670Ds I recently parted together from used.
If you're ever in Fort Collins send me a PM I would be happy to have you over.
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post #938 of 958 Old 05-01-2015, 02:54 PM
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Prolly so, and more refined perhaps and smoother. Curious bout the midbass of the Tannoy too.
The midbass is outstanding. Tight and detailed. It is a very refined sound but quite smooth. Just a pleasure to listen at any volume. I am truly hearing background music and vocals that I did not know existed on many tracks. I know Tannoy fell off the map in the US for quite awhile but these speakers are a bargain. I liked them substantially better than the KEF reference 3 which had a MSRP of 3k more.

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I guess the Tannoy would sound more "point-source-y" and less "wall of sound" ?
Definitely not a wall of sound but projects quite well into my kitchen which is 50 feet away. Still has a sweet spot about 16 feet.
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post #939 of 958 Old 05-02-2015, 12:18 AM
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If you're ever in Fort Collins send me a PM I would be happy to have you over.
Thank you for the invite! Interestingly enough I lived in Ft. Collins for a year back in 2000. I worked at Ft Collins Motor Sports just off I-25. Loved that job. Great town.

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post #940 of 958 Old 05-02-2015, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fish5225 View Post
The midbass is outstanding. Tight and detailed. It is a very refined sound but quite smooth. Just a pleasure to listen at any volume. I am truly hearing background music and vocals that I did not know existed on many tracks. I know Tannoy fell off the map in the US for quite awhile but these speakers are a bargain. I liked them substantially better than the KEF reference 3 which had a MSRP of 3k more.



Definitely not a wall of sound but projects quite well into my kitchen which is 50 feet away. Still has a sweet spot about 16 feet.

Nice man sounds like a great speaker. My JBLs have a very huge sound to them (as said a giant wall of sound)with lots of midbass that is vicious sounding and visceral especially at loud volumes without breaking up. Low volumes they can be smooth too.

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post #941 of 958 Old 05-02-2015, 11:52 PM
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Thank you for the invite! Interestingly enough I lived in Ft. Collins for a year back in 2000. I worked at Ft Collins Motor Sports just off I-25. Loved that job. Great town.
Yeah I'm pretty lucky to live here.
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post #942 of 958 Old 07-24-2015, 02:20 AM
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Please add the JBL LSR 6328P to the list.

Also, are you considering adding subwoofers to the list? I am curious as to how LSR 6312SP vs JBL 3635 would handle 115dBSPL at 12'.

All in all, great post and research. Thank you for it!
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post #943 of 958 Old 07-24-2015, 02:20 AM
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Please add the JBL LSR 6328P to the list.

Also, are you considering adding subwoofers to the list? I am curious as to how LSR 6312SP vs JBL 3635 would handle 115dBSPL at 12'.

All in all, great post and research. Thank you for it!
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post #944 of 958 Old 07-24-2015, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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The 6328 looks like a small to medium -field monitor. It would likely be at 106dB peak at 12 feet in an untreated room, but I'd say 103dB for less distortion. It's an 8" woofer.

I won't add subwoofers, but data-bass.com actually ranks, rates, tests, and reviews subs.

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post #945 of 958 Old 07-28-2015, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
Removed < 105dB
With a heavy heart, I've hidden those speakers that cannot produce 105dB with their peak watt rating. It gets to be too confusing, I suspect, to have a list with a stated purpose, and then also see a smattering of other speakers that either almost made it, or are there to illustrate how much they don't make the grade.

I've put the bottom-feeders on another "naughty" list.

Seriously, many of those speakers are fantastic, for their own reasons. Beautiful cabinetry. Incredibly detailed. Great on and off-axis response. Smooth, buttery, etc. But I gotta draw the line some where.

Note that other speakers like the KRK Expose, and Procella P6 also fell off. As I learn more about how to interpret their active amps this might change, as they're only 1.4dB short!

I'm open to suggestions about this.

Corrected and Added Axioms
I read about the Axiom VP-160 today, and I was gratified to see, instead of three horizontal woofers, or two tweeters, instead I saw a design with two woofers, and a mid below the tweeter, which I understand mitigates lobing problems in the critical midrange. I thought, "I'd better add this, and other Axiom speakers to the List!"

I was aghast to find that the one Axiom speaker I'd added a while back had the sensitivity too low. Axiom is great in that they specify sensitivity as full space (anechoic). Their in-room sensitivity is always 4dB above anechoic, instead of the 3dB that others report. I'm curious as to the difference in calculations or measurements.

Anyway, to help atone for my mistake, I endeavored to add all the Axioms I could find that would be worthy of the List.

You'll find the M22 (corrected to 93dB), the M3, which is a larger bookshelf (92dB), the M50 floorstander (94dB and only $828 a pair), and the VP160 (93dB $570).

I do wish their frequency response was given with -3dB points, though.
And I don't know whether their "max amp power" means program power, and thus a recommended amp spec, or peak power? I assumed the former, but someone correct me if I'm wrong!

Added SVS
I had not paid much attention to SVS previously. I like the company, I own one of their subs. But I was disappointed to find that a company known for class-leading subs that are high-output, decided to make the majority of their speakers more intended for critical listening at closer distances, at lower volumes.

I know they, and fans, would vehemently disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that their sensitivities often range from 82 to 85dB. I'm sure that the design yields incredible detail and imaging, but I'm still really surprised. Reference level would require 1,500 to 2,670 watts, 500% to 1,100% over what they're rated to handle (and that's my giving their max power rating the benefit of the doubt that it was Program and not Peak!).

After adding the speakers, I later decided to hide those that can't do 105dB, so all but on SVSound speaker disappeared: MBS-02 (82.5dB), SBS-02 (82dB), and the SCS-02 (84.5dB). These speakers will do -10dB on a calibrated volume, if you feed them 300-400 peak watts. I don't know if an XPA-3 is a design with 3dB headroom as some are, but if so, then that amp would fine.

Their high-end tower, the MTS-02 ($1,399) makes the grade, even with only 88.5dB sensitivity, by virtue of the 600w power handling. If I'm wrong about their power numbers, then it'll fall off the list.
<a class="attachment loginreq" href="/attachments/8437" title="">Reference-Capable-Speakers.pdf 442.220703125k . file
When you say reference capable. --- does that account for room distance to MLP? Or does that simply mean at the speaker? My buddy, @stitch1 , has a pair of SVS SCS-01 speakers and we are going to try to test them soon with some compression sweeps. His speakers seem surprisingly capable when listening to them, but hitting about 115 peak dBs at the listening position (assuming a 10dB drop in spl from 1 meter to 3-4 meters in a room, with the speakers in a baffle wall behind an AT screen) it seems nearly impossible for them to truly be a reference capable speaker!?!?!?! We are going to try to figure it out.

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post #946 of 958 Old 07-28-2015, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I meant at the MLP, and I drew the line at 12 feet. More recently I realize in most rooms it's 3db double distance, instead of 6db. So that should allow more speakers on the list.

Conversely, I realize more how much distortion is present at the manufacturer's peak power handling, so I'd suggest half to quarter of what they spec as peak if we care about quality and not wincing on the peaks.

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post #947 of 958 Old 08-06-2015, 05:34 PM
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Hello Eyleron,


Thanks again for making this thread!

@stitch1 and I tested the SVS SCS-01 speakers last night (they are his), and while they are great sounding speakers, they are no where near true reference capable in my room. Attached are some compression sweeps we took with the omnimic. The softdome tweeter just can't go anywhere near as loud as needed to hit true reference at 13' feet behind a Seymour XD AT screen.


This is the left speaker only, no EQ, 13' distance, Omnimic was staged on a mic stand at the MLP. The speaker is loaded in my baffle wall, powered by a Crown XLS-402 amplifier. The Denon x7200wa crossover was set at 90hz. This capture was taken through my Seymour XD Acoustic Transparent screen material. Each of these captures is 10 sweeps averaged at 1/12 smoothing.


The Omnimic is reference calibrated. You can see the SVS are starting to compress a little bit in the third sweep and by the fifth sweep the tweeter is completely overloaded (overheated?) at 20KHz and starting to lose ground. These sweeps were sequential and all one session. This compression wasn't terribly audible, but we didn't want to hurt the speaker so we stopped before damage occurred with the knowledge that we were well into compression in several frequencies (no EQ applied), and obviously at speaker limits.


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Name:	SVS SCS-01 Left Channel in baffle wall behind Seymour AT screen - 90hz crossover, 1-12 smoothing.jpg
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Last edited by Archaea; 08-08-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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post #948 of 958 Old 08-06-2015, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Hello Eyleron,


Thanks again for making this thread!

@stitch1 and I tested the SVS SCS-01 speakers last night (they are his), and while they are great sounding speakers, they are no where near true reference capable in my room. I'll post some compression sweeps up soon that I took with the omnimic. The softdome tweeter just can't go anywhere near as loud as needed to hit true reference at 13' feet behind a Seymour XD AT screen.
Great. See if you can post some distortion graphs too. Would be very interesting to see distortion levels at say 10 db below reference and then at reference.
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post #949 of 958 Old 08-06-2015, 06:45 PM
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This is a fantastic thread!

Can anyone give me any comments on these two drivers:

I am currently testing this one in a custom build center speaker cabinet that someone has built for me:

http://www.usspeaker.com/radian%20512-2b-1.htm

This speaker is 94 db sensitive. Currently I only had the center channel built for me as I want to make sure it works well for the vocals etc as my past Triad Gold sounded too harsh on vocals when pushed beyond 10 db below reference.

I just received it and put it through 50 hours of break in using a break in trac. Is is ok at 10 db below reference (but then again so did my previous centre channel that was a Triad Classic Gold with soft dome tweeter that was only 90 db sensitive) but when I try to push it at reference it seems to be somewhat harsh so I am not very pleased so far (not as bad as my Triad but still harsh).

In addition for the current 94 db sensitive speaker that I am using when I do push it at say 5 db below reference I also hear some extra siblance on the "s". Not sure if this is due to the speaker being a coaxial woofer or due to pushing the speaker too much or both. I have read comments that sometimes coaxial have that "s" siblance issue.

Some back ground info:
- Preamp is Emotiva XMC-1
- Amp is 5 channel Sunfire 200 watts per channel
- I sit about 9 feet from the centre speaker
- Dedicated, treated and sealed HT room used 100% for movies measuring 11 ft wide x 17.5 ft long x 7.5 feet high.


Alternately I was also looking at this one mainly for its rated 102 db sensitivity:

http://www.usspeaker.com/radian%205312neo-1.htm

Will the 102 db sensitive speaker play better then the 94 db one that I currently have for reference levels or should 94 db sensitively be enough? I guess my question is for my distance is there a minimum sensitive speaker that I should be looking for in order to play at reference cleanly without any harshness?
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post #950 of 958 Old 12-07-2015, 03:55 PM
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Play with this calculator:

http://www.hometheatrebasics.com/hom...pl-calculator/

Often speaker sensitivity is not super accurate. Curious, how are you measuring reference? In any case, if you want loud/dynamic and crystal clear, you need lots of sensitivity.

Save a ton of cash and check into the Behringer B215xl PA speakers. A normal avr can drive them to super high, ear bleeding levels and they remain crystal clear. A thread on here has the scoop on them.

I owned the b212xl, the smaller model, and loved them but loved my wife more...so I had to sell them as my room is not dedicated.
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post #951 of 958 Old 12-07-2015, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Often speaker sensitivity is not super accurate. Curious, how are you measuring reference?
The maximum SPL ratings of our RWO/Fostex monitors (listed in the charts) was measured @ 1M in an anechoic environment (outdoors) as the maximum long term pink noise output achieved before damage occurred. The gain was increased 1dB at a time for several minutes. Our LS/4 model generated 121dB SPL @ 150W RMS.

Our LS/3 medium sized system produced 119dB SPL @ 100W RMS and our smallest system, the LS/2, put out 116dB SPL @ 65W RMS.

This was not 'peak' SPL. It was continuous pink noise!

See them at:

http://gray.mb.ca/fostex/RWO-FOSTEX%...20MONITORS.pdf

or at:

https://facebook.com/RWOFostex

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post #952 of 958 Old 12-07-2015, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
I meant at the MLP, and I drew the line at 12 feet. More recently I realize in most rooms it's 3db double distance, instead of 6db. So that should allow more speakers on the list.

Conversely, I realize more how much distortion is present at the manufacturer's peak power handling, so I'd suggest half to quarter of what they spec as peak if we care about quality and not wincing on the peaks.

As another data-point, in my room my mainspeakers are close to 13' away from the MLP and I lose 9-10 dB from the 1 meter reading to my seat. My seats are basically in the middle of my room in relation to length.



That depends on the brand as to whether they hit specs or not. I compression sweep tested a pair of Behringer Truth 2031A that were rated for 116dB max output and they fell at least a good 10dB+ shy of that - with the bass being a early limiting factor. My Mackie C200 by contrast are rated at 118dB max output and they start compressing a bit on the 20Khz top end less than 5dB short of rated spec in my compression sweep testing. The Mackie can produce about 103dB at my MLP without any compression anywhere on the frequency response plot, and then it starts compressing the 20Khz end. By contrast the Behringer Truth could barely make 95dB at my MLP without encountering compression, and pretty serious port noise.



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Post 84 - Mackie C200 compression sweeps - powered by Denon x7200wa
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post #953 of 958 Old 12-16-2015, 11:47 AM
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Which ones would be the smallest reference level capable speakers here ?

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post #954 of 958 Old 12-16-2015, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Which ones would be the smallest reference level capable speakers here ?
In an echo-y room? 12 feet away? With an honest 100wpc receiver?

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post #955 of 958 Old 12-16-2015, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
In an echo-y room? 12 feet away? With an honest 100wpc receiver?
Yes, using same criteria as others.
And I didn't mean in absolute terms, just among the ones which pass in above criteria.

(I can go through the list, but you may be already aware... hence the question)


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post #956 of 958 Old 12-16-2015, 10:22 PM
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Our Klipschorns, with a center channel modified Belle Klipsch can do reference level @ 16 feet in our approx 4,500 cu ft room, with SPL to spare. The true RMS of the amps is 120 w.p.c, although they are rated at 150 w.p.c by the manufacturer.
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post #957 of 958 Old 01-08-2016, 07:43 AM
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Not a well known speaker (hardly at all), sinclair audio 460t. I believe they can hit reference at 12ft but I don't have any measurement to back it up... http://www.sinclairaudio.com/460t.php
I own a pair and thoroughly enjoy them.
Also, another speaker that is becoming increasingly popular is the PA speaker, Behringer B212XL and the B215XL. There is a long ongoing thread on these, people love them!
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post #958 of 958 Old 01-08-2016, 07:43 AM
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Not a well known speaker (hardly at all), sinclair audio 460t. I believe they can hit reference at 12ft but I don't have any measurement to back it up... http://www.sinclairaudio.com/460t.php
I own a pair and thoroughly enjoy them.
Also, another speaker that is becoming increasingly popular is the PA speaker, Behringer B212XL and the B215XL. There is a long ongoing thread on these, people love them!
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