List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 33 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #961 of 983 Old 02-29-2016, 12:32 PM
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[QUOTE=Frohlich;41891001]In the land of AVS member insanity, there are many folks on AVS who use pro-audio speakers from JBL, QSC, JTR, Danley, etc..... and pro audio amps from Crown, QSC Behringer,etc.. I personally have a JBL pro set-up with Crown amps.[/QUOTE

+1

Yes in this land you'll find pro audio used in home cinemas to great effect. I also have a JBL Pro Cinema setup powered with vintage Crown amps.
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post #962 of 983 Old 03-16-2016, 08:44 AM
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did i miss something or are the behringers?, b212xl and b215xl not on the list
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post #963 of 983 Old 06-16-2016, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXProSound View Post
Forgive me for being new to this. Just an old guy who loves audio.
You have listed several Professional grade speakers. Do many people really use these? I did pro installs for churches, schools and club for 20 years and have used dome of the model mentioned in this HT list. I did an HT for a guy using powered QSC boxes. The guy spent $100K plus on the room including 3D projector and screen and servos under all of the seats driven by a 12kW Crown Amp. I was crazy loud and did sound totally awesome and 100+db but during softer spoken parts you could hear the hiss coming from the 10kW worth of speakers.
I'd think we'd want amps with higher signal to noise ratios with sensitive speakers.

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post #964 of 983 Old 06-16-2016, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
I'd think we'd want amps with higher signal to noise ratios with sensitive speakers.
Yes, and not only better (or adequate) measured, weighted, signal to noise ratios, but also spectral characteristics that cause noise (hiss, especially) to be less noticeable. I had two name brand pre/pros with highly similar measured S/N ratios; one had objectional hiss, hum, and buzz with my Klipschorns and the other didn't. The one that did have the noise measured fine (measurement done by the manufacturer). The noise came from beyond the volume control, i.e., turning down the volume didn't help. When the pre/pro was turned off, there was no noise (except when a few feet from the Khorns), so it was not the power amp. The dealer and I checked, and found NO hum loop. Replacing the pre/pro with another make and model fixed the problem.
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post #965 of 983 Old 06-21-2016, 04:22 AM
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Hey @Eyleron , I stumbled upon these awesome looking Danish speakers the other day...



Quoted specs are a bit sketchy... I had to hunt for the sensitivity and maximum SPL conditions:

Operating range: 65Hz (-3dB) to 40kHz
Axial sensitivity (whole space SPL) LF/MF-HF: 110dB/1W/1m
Nominal beamwidth; horizontal, vertical: 90º, 40º
Impedance nominal minimum:
Recommended HPF: 80Hz; 24dB/octave
Maximum power handling: 140W
Calculated axial output limit (whole space SPL), average peak LF/MF-HF (30W): 130dB @1m
[UK price.]

Specs for all of Artcoustic's speakers are summarised here: http://www.artcoustic.com/speaker-comparison-tables/.



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post #966 of 983 Old 06-21-2016, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Hey @Eyleron , I stumbled upon these awesome looking Danish speakers the other day...



Quoted specs are a bit sketchy... I had to hunt for the sensitivity and maximum SPL conditions:
Operating range: 65Hz (-3dB) to 40kHz
Axial sensitivity (whole space SPL) LF/MF-HF: 110dB/1W/1m
Nominal beamwidth; horizontal, vertical: 90º, 40º
Impedance nominal minimum:
Recommended HPF: 80Hz; 24dB/octave
Maximum power handling: 140W
Calculated axial output limit (whole space SPL), average peak LF/MF-HF (30W): 130dB @1m
[UK price.]

Specs for all of Artcoustic's speakers are summarised here: http://www.artcoustic.com/speaker-comparison-tables/.



Wow! All the design problems of an MTM centre and a pseudo line array in one convenient package.
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post #967 of 983 Old 06-21-2016, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Wow! All the design problems of an MTM centre and a pseudo line array in one convenient package.
Yes, but they claim high sensitivity/SPL.

I take it they're seriously flawed? I'm broadly across the issues of a horizontal MTM, but have no idea about line array theory.
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post #968 of 983 Old 06-22-2016, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
I take it they're seriously flawed? I'm broadly across the issues of a horizontal MTM, but have no idea about line array theory.
Line arrays have two main problems in my experience. The first is that the MF/HF drivers are side by side, putting lobing issues on the horizontal axis rather than the vertical where it is generally less of an issue. The second is, that the taller the panel, the greater the time of flight difference is between the top and bottom drivers versus the central ones. This results in strong comb filtering and is annoyingly audible to me. It makes it sound unfocussed for want of a more technical description. Large panels like electrostatics and Magneplanars are the same.

The MF drivers in this design are quite small about 4" by eyeball. That gives them the area (Sd) of about 52cm^2 so the total area is 1248cm^2 or about the same as a pro 18" driver. The problem is that small drivers have a small Xmax so the volumetric displacement which determines SPL is not going to be the same as a pro driver, so the drivers will be using a larger % of their Xmax than the pro 18 to get the same SPL. More excursion from rest, the more distortion. Also, because a large number of drivers are used in my experience they are cheaper units than designs using a smaller number of drivers in a more conventional way, and the drivers will have to be wired in series/parallel to get the impedance to a reasonable number. Let's hypothesise they are in groups of 3, which are then paralleled; each driver will see the inductance and the Le(x) of the other two, reducing rise rate and increasing distortion.

Even very expensive designs with lots of high quality drivers still have these issues, but to a lesser extent. Many years ago we built a 3 way line array based upon a similar design, just longer and using ribbons for the HF and using a separate enclosure for the LF drivers. Compared to a number of other designs such as a coaxial (compared using the same LF array) we could never seem to get the midrange clarity and imaging of the point sources, through the dynamics were quite good.

It would be interesting to try to work around the TOF differences, by outputting to multiple DACs and amps (1/driver) with small delays to adjust for the TOF differences as much as possible, but that will have to be a project for someone else.

Gotta go shortly. I'm being dragooned to some function. Apparently there is some football match being played tonight, and I'm not a fan.
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post #969 of 983 Old 06-24-2016, 10:16 AM
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Does Goldenear speakers reach reference?


I have Triton 5's which are not their best, and I measure reference levels in my rather large room with them..
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post #970 of 983 Old 07-26-2016, 09:43 AM
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Just stumbled on this thread. Great info, thanks for putting it together!

Can you add the Monitor Audio Gold series, specifically the 300 towers? I'm curious how those stack up.
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post #971 of 983 Old 07-26-2016, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
I'm curious how those stack up.
Not HE.
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post #972 of 983 Old 01-12-2017, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Does Goldenear speakers reach reference?


I have Triton 5's which are not their best, and I measure reference levels in my rather large room with them..
It theoretically can, as 200w at 12ft from a 90dB (they don't qualify as 1w, 1 speaker, so who knows?) speaker can be 105dB. But with no headroom.

Two quarterbacks can both throw the ball 80 yards, but one of them usually goes the target, the other usually misses.

When we crudely measure with meter we are reading sound (pass distance), not necessarily good sound. You could also measure for distortion (pass accuracy).

200w to achieve 105dB is half their stated power handling until the speaker breaks. Usually that means distortion that may not be obvious until you hear speakers effortless at that level.

If the speaker is big, it MIGHT play low and with great efficiency.

If it also plays low like a sub, it often gives up efficiency.

Lots of drivers, and big drivers, might also indicate efficiency. Triton 5 has two 6" woofers for midbass, but one 10" woofer would have 50% more surface area.

Seems like it's intended for two channel use and not reference level theater or concerts, like most of the towers are.

They are selling most people on that unqualified spec of 26Hz response (-3db? -10db?) when the user may have subs and not need that extension anyway. They could make a speaker that plays to "only" 60Hz that's 96dB and would pay loud and clean.

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post #973 of 983 Old 01-16-2017, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
...Reference Level, 0dBFS (0dB Full Scale (digital), is the maximum level the soundtracks can be recorded at for any given channel. It equates to SPL peak output for each five or seven channels of 105dB and 115dB for the LFE channel at the listening position
Greetings Eyleron, here in the US we use:

SMPTE RP 155 (-20dBFS = +4 dBu = 0 VU = 1.23 Volts rms)
Note the 20dB headroom above reference with a peak +24 dBU = 12.28Volts rms

Electrical interface calibrations can be measured with a true rms multimeter and sine wave peak amplitude of -20 dBFS.

Reference surround reproduction level (pink noise at -20 dBFS) currently targets 85 LKFS which is normalized via correctly setting the DD AC3 encoder metadata dialnorm to reflect the mixing dynamic. Long term measured average dialogue level target is (-31 dBFS)

i.e. A theatrical mix room calibrated (81 dBSPL) instead (85 dBSPL) puts the mixing engineer in an environment which will result him/her raising their long term average dBSPL and also compressing dynamic range slightly. Things are normalized:

31+ (dialnorm setting) = level shift

Still using the same example:
31 +(-27) = 4 db attenuation. Thus normalizing to the -31dBFS or (105dB - 31dB = 74 dBSPL) long term weighted average dialogue level

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post #974 of 983 Old 01-22-2017, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Behringer 212XL & 215XL

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Originally Posted by alamez View Post
did i miss something or are the behringers?, b212xl and b215xl not on the list
Behringer B212XL and B215XL added!

More talk about them here on AVS Forum.
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post #975 of 983 Old 01-22-2017, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
Behringer B212XL and B215XL added!

More talk about them here on AVS Forum.
B215XL and B212XL looking good on that chart!

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post #976 of 983 Old 01-23-2017, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
Just stumbled on this thread. Great info, thanks for putting it together!

Can you add the Monitor Audio Gold series, specifically the 300 towers? I'm curious how those stack up.
http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/products/gold/gold-300

I'd talk about them and list them not just if they're efficient but also high SPL. I guess I should have an OR in the thread instead of an AND.
Like, Dynaudios that aren't terribly efficient but can take gobs of power.

The Monitor Audio Gold 300 towers say they're 90dB sensitive but don't qualify that as full space, half-space, in-room.
They say they recommend 100-200w amp. We don't know if 200w is where distortion starts to get objectionable (where the drivers get non-linear, there are breakup modes, etc.), or it's where the speaker starts to break, and on 200w peaks, or do they mean 200w of long-term 3dB crest sine wave?

Since I'm really advocating for reference-capable speakers to be able to hit 105dB peaks at half their max power handling so at least there's a chance distortion might be lessened, it's debatable whether this speaker makes that "grade" such that it is.

It's disappointing that reviews don't show distortion components at increasing levels. Stereophile does 90dB at 6 feet, I think, but I wish they also did 100dB and 110dB!
It'd also be useful to find a review that shows impedance curve, because many supposedly "8 ohm compatible" speakers really have dips to 2.5 or 4 ohms in mid-bass frequency region (so should've been marked as a 4 ohm or 5 ohm speaker), and thus demand way more power than you're led to believe.

So when a speaker doesn't give an impedance curve, qualify what the sensitivity and power handling mean, and it's already on the fence spec-wise, I'd say it's not reference-capable.

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post #977 of 983 Old 02-20-2017, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Jbl lsr6328p

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Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
The 6328 looks like a small to medium -field monitor. It would likely be at 106dB peak at 12 feet in an untreated room, but I'd say 103dB for less distortion. It's an 8" woofer.
This is a $1,500 nearfield monitor with an 8" woofer with a compression driver in the EOS waveguide. It isn't a great choice at theater distances.

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post #978 of 983 Old 02-20-2017, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Jbl am6215/95, am5215/64

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Originally Posted by Wrager View Post
The JBL AE speakers don't seem to get much attention. Something like the AM6215/95 sounds really good. The PT-H95HF horn is among JBL's best. It also uses the 2226 and 2431 CD. Much better (more refined) than the cheaper JRX/MRX line of PA speakers.
I finally added the AM6215/95 and the AM5215/64.

This is an installed speaker with a 15" and a horn loaded compression driver. Super high power handling (2000w-4000w) and high sensitivity of 98dB makes this a real high output speaker with quality drivers.

It looks like it's been superceded by three-way designs with a horn-loaded mid, like the AM7315/64 /95?

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post #979 of 983 Old 02-22-2017, 08:23 PM
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I would like to submit that you add more Alcons. Specifically the ones I own.

CRMSCompact


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post #980 of 983 Old 03-04-2017, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Post Planar Ribbon: Wisdom Insight L8i

What? "Fragile ribbons" for high-spl speakers? Yup! A few companies make speakers that use thin film or foil diaphragm high frequency drivers that are high output. Planar ribbon/magnetic from BG Radia, SLS Audio, Wisdom Audio, ADAM Audio are low inductance, high sensitivity, and can be affordable than other thin film drivers.

Wisdom Audio is one such manufacturer. While they started in the rarefied audiophile market, lately they make more [relative to their original pricing!] more affordable speakers.
They currently offer three product lines: Wisdom Series, Sage Series, and Insight Series, in decreasing price. They

One cool thing about their speakers is that many of the models are line-source. This offers a couple benefits: They don't lose SPL as quickly over distance (e.g. outdoors instead of "6dB double-distance", they're 3dB double-distance), and they have more controlled dispersion vertically (for a vertical line-source) for less ceiling and floor bounce.

So far, I've added two Wisdom Insight models: the Insight L8i and the Insight P6i. The first is a line-source design, and the second is a point-source. The Insight line benefits from trickle-down from the more expensive Sage Series. Their crossover is passive and don't require their own specialized amplifier. The Insight P6i has too-low a sensitivity to really be on the list, as I don't like that it has to be fed peak power to reach 105 dB in-room 12 feet away.


Insight L8i
This is the biggest Insight Series speaker. It's priced at $5,000...each. It features a 48" tall high frequency section, next to eight oval-shaped bass drivers. The crossover frequency of 550 Hz keeps most of the vocal range within the PMD drivers. They advertise a sensitivity of 91dB (half-space?), peak power handling of 500w, 4ohm nominal impedance, and max SPL of 118 dB @ 1m, with a frequency range of 80 Hz - 20 kHz (+/- 2dB). Kudos to Wisdom for listing (in the manual) the minimum impedance of 2.5 ohms. In the spreadsheet, I've tried to normalize sensitivity between 8 ohm and 4ohm speakers by dropping sensitivity 3dB. Nominal impedance is supposed to have minimums of 80%, but this speaker's minimum is 63% of nominal, so I should normalize sensitivity at least another 1 dB down. But I'll give it another 3dB for being line-source and thus losing SPL at half the rate of conventional point-source speakers. At half peak-power-handling it would theoretically hit 112 dB from 12 feet, or 108 dB from a 100w receiver.

It's designed to always be used in the vertical orientation, so obviously a center speaker would need to be behind an acoustically-transparent screen.
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post #981 of 983 Old 03-04-2017, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
... They don't lose SPL as quickly over distance (e.g. outdoors instead of "6dB double-distance", they're 3dB double-distance) ...
How can they do that?
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post #982 of 983 Old 03-05-2017, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Line Array Speakers

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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
How can they do that?
Point-source radiates as a sphere, where radius doubles (distance from speaker doubles) equals 4x the surface area, thus one-quarter the loudness (-6dB).


Constructive interference creates an approximation of a line-source that radiates as a cylinder, where radius doubles equals 2x the surface area, thus one-half the loudness (-3dB), although this is a simplification and how and when it decays is in reality more complicated.
Pro audio employs software modeling to achieve the shape they need for each venue.


One commonly sees vertical line source arrays as concerts. They disperse horizontally as a traditional speaker, but in the vertical, the directivity is constrained. The low limit of directivity is constrained by the height of the line array. A bigger array allows it to behave as a line source to a lower frequency.
The drivers must be spaced close enough to constructively interfere. That's why you see the HF drivers next to the LF/MF drivers in the speaker above.

Here's another example, SLS Audio, where the ribbon sits in front of the MF/LF driver (kind of like concentrics). This is just one module that would be joined with many others vertically:


Practically, at two to three meters, the line-source stops above subwoofer frequencies. And high frequency is controlled more by the waveguides to match the low-to-mid directivity response.
Also, after some distance, the line source returns to behaving as a point source.

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post #983 of 983 Old 03-05-2017, 10:26 AM
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Thanks!
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