List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Speakers > List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 07:51 PM 01-18-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

etc, etc.
Apples, oranges?

Thanks.
I did have a problem where I copied-pasted calls from one sheet to another, and I just saw this evening that it only took the values, not the formulas. I copied them back in from a backup sheet.

But now, when I want to point out that I put dozens of comments and caveats in about when I had to make interpretations of watts, sensitivity, etc., I see the comments are missing. I believe the last PDF version has them. I'll have to restore them in the spreadsheet.

Anyway, I did try to point out caveats and unsure data when I could. I hope people can help shore it up over time!

AJinFLA's Avatar AJinFLA 08:03 PM 01-18-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Well, when the spec is given as "2.83 v 1 meter anechoic," I used that spec.

Understood, as that is often all you have. Except it may not be accurate (cough cough ) and is often stated as an "av(era)g(e)". At what frequency? Over what bandwidth on axis? Remember, the loudspeakers (on axis) response is not flat, but varies. And it's radiation in 3D. Into a room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

If the only spec is "sensitivity (half-space)" I dropped it by 3db. Except sometimes other models of that manufacturer did specify both, and the half space was only 2db more than the anechoic, so that'd make me revisit those numbers.

Understood again, but also WAGing . I know this is meant to be a "ballpark" and to be quite honest, is "somewhat correct", but there are a huge amount of variables that an lead to erroneous inferences and conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Can you explain what you mean by this and what the implications are? Is this what Dennis was saying above, how the loss in db is not linear across the frequency range [due to more loss of high frequency]?

I speed read the thread, not sure who/what Dennis said, but the propagation loss calculations you are using are on axis for unbounded (free) space., not a confined, lossy, reverberant room, which tends to "unsimplify" things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Is this addressed by the fact that the speakers are all being treated equally in this respect (good for comparing them with each other, not accurate for definitively knowing that "given this test signal I'll get exactly this many db with this many watts in my home")?

No. It's ballparking with a great many missing factors. Don't get me wrong though. A SH-50 (or 3 across the front stage) is going to be stupendously perceptibly louder (and more "dynamic") than a Paradigm (Model here) Floorstander. At least prior to the onset of catastrophic permanent hearing loss .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

It's probably good you gave up there. I have enough questions and issues swirling around this week. But I do want to do as good a job as I can, given time!
As I suggested above, I don't care so much about this being an absolute reference to be used by an acoustician in designing a room. I'll even take "somewhat misleading" over:
  • Many enthusiests being totally unaware of how compressed their sound is, using speakers that otherwise sound good and review well
  • Manufacturers playing spec games where the parameters change even within one speaker, let alone from speaker to speaker, line to line. I say, make a good product for what its intended for, and tell people about it, honestly.
  • The industry's general unwillingness to address this. It's like a world where most of the car manufacturers only make cars that go 0-60 in 10 seconds and max out at 100 mph. And the auto reviewers only review cars by driving them like timid grandmothers.

That's cool. just add as many caveats as you (or I) can. One nice resource is Soundstage loudspeaker measurements, using the NRC. Of note are the "Deviation from linearity at XdB and above" type measurements.
But ultimately, what is measured in situ...and the perceived loudness requirements of the individual is what matters, not necessarily a numbers game.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. I'll proofread later
Matts's Avatar Matts 09:24 PM 01-18-2012
Gee Eyleron you have nearly out down yourself. Thanks for taking the time to compile such a list. Wowser
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 10:08 PM 01-18-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

you have nearly out down yourself.

Yeah, after AJ, I'm definitely down and out!
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 10:15 PM 01-18-2012
I do notice how waaay more of the pro speakers lines give more SPL numbers, multiple sensitivities, polars, freq response, directivity, etc.
coytee's Avatar coytee 03:34 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

I do notice how waaay more of the pro speakers lines give more SPL numbers, multiple sensitivities, polars, freq response, directivity, etc.

I'd suspect that's because they are "tools for a job" and the people putting the job together need to know the right ingredients so they can do the job correctly.

Start to consistently mislead on the ingredients and the people putting the job together keep getting screwed....I'd say your sales might start to suffer.

If instead, your tools are accurate to their intended (advertised) uses, then you would have happier customers.

Speculation on my part
s.myers's Avatar s.myers 03:57 AM 01-19-2012
The Klipsch KLF-30, 20, 10 & C7 are no longer available per their website.
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 06:16 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

I'd suspect that's because they are "tools for a job" and the people putting the job together need to know the right ingredients so they can do the job correctly.

What?! I certainly hope that you're not suggesting that "enveloping," "warm," "buttery," "wide," "depth," "low," "highs," "true," "realism," "clear," "fidelity," "accurate," "3D," "image," "transport," and "powerful" are not conveying useful information about the ingredients of these tools?

Personally, I'm simply waiting for the first speaker with the attribute of "whoozah!"
FOH's Avatar FOH 07:00 AM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

...... "Many enthusiasts being totally unaware of how compressed their sound is" .....


Ignorance is bliss, .... moving between the high end two channel, state of the art pro audio rigs, mid-fi home stuff, the world of studio monitoring, and trade shows such as CEDIA, I've seen and am convinced that the vast majority of knowledgeable enthusiasts have little clue as to how compressed typical loudspeakers can be. Accurate dynamic tracking of the signal, top to bottom throughout the spectrum, is a wonderful thing to behold, and gets one closer to the ultimate realism.

As to Salk's Pharos sensitivity, I don't know. The drivers are all well vetted, available units. It's not design I'd classify a very high sensitivity, however it's higher than many designs, and likely high enough for the environment for which it's designed.

Thanks for your work
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 07:52 PM 01-19-2012
MKTheater, I added more JBL Pro Cinema speakers. I was unsure if sensitivity was anechoic, but I'm assuming it is since they're in the pro line. And if their power handling of 400, 500, 800 watts etc. was Program or Peak. I was assuming Program.
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 08:38 PM 01-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

MKTheater, I added more JBL Pro Cinema speakers. I was unsure if sensitivity was anechoic, but I'm assuming it is since they're in the pro line. And if their power handling of 400, 500, 800 watts etc. was Program or Peak. I was assuming Program.

I know their sensitivity is high but not sure of the program or peak ratings.
mtbdudex's Avatar mtbdudex 07:57 AM 01-20-2012
Eyleron;
Great job you've done here compiling the info.
Shows there is so much to this hobby, and having information and making informed choices is a big part of it.

Thx for doing this for the AVS community.
A starting point for people getting into the hobby, and making decisions that affect budget, performance, listening sessions before buying, etc.

fwiw
My current speaker set-up is circia late 2007, and the knowledge I had then - reading Sound&Vision/other "HT mags"; Paradigm v5.0 Frt Monitor Series 9, Center CC-390, Rear/back surrounds ADP-390. Works, for me, but if I had "better" information, or done more research, probably would have picked a different scheme.

I've negotiated 2014/2015 as HT upgrade time....hopefully someone will keep your great work going till then..........

1 vote from me to add this to the Setting Up Your Home Theater Audio 101 sticky.....DrPainMD's the thread owner
thirdeye11's Avatar thirdeye11 08:11 AM 01-20-2012
Awesome list, thanks for putting this together. If I ever build a dedicated theater, I'm using this list to help guide me!
shivaji's Avatar shivaji 08:39 AM 01-20-2012
Just adding another speaker from Klipsch. I use the Klipsch Epic CF3's. The specs state 100dB at 1 watt, up to 250 watts continuous with 1000 watt peaks. Their price to performance is quite high.
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 09:01 AM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know their sensitivity is high but not sure of the program or peak ratings.

I'm asking in the amplifiers forum about an amp's peak watts. It's often not published...maybe because the number can be derived at so many different ways. I'll read some places how "it's meaningless, that only RMS matters, makes sure they specify RMS..." But I think they should say that "RMS is a more sure metric of comparison between amps."

Peak DOES matter: our 6, 12, 22 db swings in music and film soundtracks require large multiples of power. And from what I'm reading, some amps provide more peak amps than others, even with the same RMS spec.

Still trying to learn more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Eyleron;
Great job you've done here compiling the info.
Shows there is so much to this hobby, and having information and making informed choices is a big part of it.

My pleasure! It's fun, it's really educational for me. It does become more of a grind. And because it's embryonic, I expect to have to make changes to reflect the realities of vagaries, or to be more precise, or present the data in a way that creates more value for users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I've negotiated 2014/2015 as HT upgrade time....hopefully someone will keep your great work going till then..........

Well, as we get more consensus on how to treat the numbers, what to present, and how, I'd like to open it up to more people to maintain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

Awesome list, thanks for putting this together. If I ever build a dedicated theater, I'm using this list to help guide me!

You're welcome; be sure to point out other speakers you come across that'd be good candidates!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaji View Post

Just adding another speaker from Klipsch. I use the Klipsch Epic CF3's. The specs state 100dB at 1 watt, up to 250 watts continuous with 1000 watt peaks. Their price to performance is quite high.

I'll check these out, thanks!
Theresa's Avatar Theresa 09:22 AM 01-20-2012
The topic includes "low distortion," so what is the thd on these various speakers?
4theLuvofHD's Avatar 4theLuvofHD 10:26 AM 01-20-2012
Thanks for this thread! I have been looking at many Pro speakers, as my HT room is pretty large. Standard towers aren't cutting it. That being said, I'm also a thrifty guy. I am waiting on the SEOS stuff from ErichH, but what do you guys thinks of the following speakers and how they may fit in here;
EV ELX112
Yamaha Club series
Behringer B212XL or the 215 (15")

I may have messed up those model #s, as I've looked at so many now! The specs are decent on these, just not sure about the reference and distortion specs.
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 10:39 AM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

The topic includes "low distortion," so what is the thd on these various speakers?

Good question! Wouldn't that be fantastic to show that:

"When driven with the watts required to reach reference level, this speaker would be exhibiting X% THD." ?!

A few of the pro brands were showing THD in their spec sheet.

I forget who, but someone on AVS in the last year said that 1/8 watts is about when compression starts. I don't know if that's peak or program or RMS watts. I don't know if that number is a good rule of thumb for all speakers.

I think the closest thing we have at the moment is looking at the "% of peak watts to achieve reference peak db" number:
  • Low Percentage, like 20%, then you know the speaker is loafing along, and isn't on too much stress, so probably not much distortion
  • Medium Percentage, like 100%, then you know the speaker is performing within its dubiously-rated peak power, but is probably distorting. The voice coil, getting hot, has its resistance change, and thus requires more power. And the drivers will each individual have their resistance change, so the overall frequency response of the speaker will change!
  • High Percentage, like 400%, you know you're feeding the speaker way more power than the manufacturer said it can handle. I don't know if sudden half-second transient peaks ever break speakers, but you can be sure that it's compressing (dynamics are squashed) and distorting.

And the "dB @ 1/8 peak watts, start of compression" number. If we take this generalization to be true, then we could see: "Oh, this speaker will only give 89db at listening position at the point that compression / distortion starts. That's not good enough, keep looking."

I'd like more feedback and advice on this! Who can find papers about measured distortion as one reaches, and surpasses, speaker RMS watt ratings, and speaker peak watt ratings?
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 08:32 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4theLuvofHD View Post

EV ELX112
Yamaha Club series
Behringer B212XL or the 215 (15")

I've added that Electrovoice, at least. It's from a different line. And, I added a couple from their cinema line, Variplex!
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 08:33 PM 01-20-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

You can add QSC KW-122's to the list, or all the qsc k and kw speakers for that matter.

Bume! added the QSC K and KW speakers!
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 08:40 PM 01-20-2012

New Speakers

a Klipsch Heritage speaker, the CF-3.

an Electrovoice stage speaker, the ELX112, and a couple of their pro cinema speakers, the Variplex.

Also, all the QSC KW and K line of speakers, which include some active powered ones. No crossover components trying to handle high power; all DSP with amps perfectly mated to the drivers!

Decreased Amp Power Rating
After more reading and discussion in the amp forum, I decided to decrease the weighting in the scores given to peak watts.

Still to do...
  • Figure out Seaton prices and any missing specs
  • Add more Danley speakers
  • Laboriously copy my lost per-cell comments from a backup.

superedge88's Avatar superedge88 09:12 PM 01-20-2012
I saw much higher peak DB output on the qsc K and kw serieson the qsc website. Are the manufacturer specifications inflated?
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 09:37 PM 01-20-2012
Yeah, thanks EV and QSC for not specifying anechoic, half space, etc.!

Going by their max SPL spec, it looked like the sensitivity was a little high.

When they don't give sensitivity for active speakers, like most don't, I extrapolated sensitivity for the sake of the chart.

Maybe you can find other material like reviews, interviews, user reports, or lab tests that provide more insight?

Thanks for your interest!
superedge88's Avatar superedge88 09:44 PM 01-20-2012
I'll see what I can wrangle up from qsc
tony123's Avatar tony123 06:14 AM 01-21-2012
I don't intend for this to come of as lobbying for "my speaker", but here goes a thought that might be value to someone. It was a deciding factor in my choice.

In looking at the scores associated with the price penalty, I got to thinking of an anomaly in the list. Since the Klipsch Heritage have been in production for roughly a half century, the used market is rich with fine examples. For instance, on about any given day you can find the La Scala for $500 per speaker. That would greatly change the price penalty for that model.

I might guess that 50% or more of buyers in that price range are considering the used market. Maybe it starts opening up too many variables? In any case, it would be a very real variable in making a purchasing decision.
coytee's Avatar coytee 06:51 AM 01-21-2012
Is the third column 'Discontinued' and if there is a 'D' there then that speaker is not made anymore?

If so, then typo on the Klipsch Jubilee. It is not discontinued. In fact, a fine chap living in Toronto ordered a pair just last week.... in Cherry.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 09:54 AM 01-21-2012
Nice work Eyleron, this is a very nice compilation of data and should be helpful to anyone looking to build out a high performance HT.

Adding a few more Danley models would be a good idea (i.e. SH-50, SM-60 and?). The active speakers may be getting a short shrift in the "Price Weighted" column but then you can't account for every variable.

Again, nice work and thanks for the effort (perfect winter project for someone living in Minot ) . I think this should be a Sticky Thread.
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 11:26 AM 01-21-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

Is the third column 'Discontinued' and if there is a 'D' there then that speaker is not made anymore?

Yeah, not sure how it should factor in any scoring. Would you stay away from the speaker if it's discontinued (disregarding price, which of course is affected either up or down if discontinued)?

Or does what really matter is the age of the actual item in question on Audiogon, eBay, etc.? Probably too much to get into here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

If so, then typo on the Klipsch Jubilee. It is not discontinued. In fact, a fine chap living in Toronto ordered a pair just last week.... in Cherry.

Going by the Klipsch website, all I could find for the Jubliee was this one: http://www.klipsch.com/kpt-jubilee-535, whereas the KPT-Jubliee is discontinued.

I'm adding the Jubilee-535 now.
Eyleron's Avatar Eyleron 11:37 AM 01-21-2012
Coytee, I realize I'm thoroughly confused by the Jubilee (made for home, is this discontinued?, and 2-way) and the KPT-Jubilee and the KPT Jubilee 535!

From your post in January:
Quote:


As for which would be better in a HT setup, at the risk of offending others, I'd go Jubilee all the way.

it kind of made it sound like you were referring to a new Jubilee versus a 535, but maybe you were debating finding a used Jubilee versus a new 535?

I can't find the Jubilee on the Klipsch website. They say the KPT Jubilee is discontinued, but the KPT Jubilee 535 is current, but they give no list price.

Can you point me to the specs for these and MSRP? (or realistic used price if discontinued?) Thank you for your education!
coytee's Avatar coytee 12:10 PM 01-21-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Would you stay away from the speaker if it's discontinued (disregarding price, which of course is affected either up or down if discontinued)?

I personally would not mind buying used. Heck, my LaScalas are over 30 years old and STILL going strong. If I were buying them used, I'd just want to get decent cabinets instead of some run over by a truck. You can fix everything else. Ironically, just as soon as I say that, I realize I bought my LaScalas new, my three Academy's new, Promedia's new, Custom 3's new (two pair) and the Jubilee's new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Coytee, I realize I'm thoroughly confused by the Jubilee (made for home, is this discontinued?, and 2-way) and the KPT-Jubilee and the KPT Jubilee 535!

From your post in January: it kind of made it sound like you were referring to a new Jubilee versus a 535, but maybe you were debating finding a used Jubilee versus a new 535?

I can't find the Jubilee on the Klipsch website. They say the KPT Jubilee is discontinued, but the KPT Jubilee 535 is current, but they give no list price.

Can you point me to the specs for these and MSRP? (or realistic used price if discontinued?) Thank you for your education!

The Jubilee as the current 2-way home owners are using it is NOT a standard SKU in the Klipsch lineup. It's a special order. (how many companies will take their black cinema speaker & dress it up in Walnut or Cherry for you?)

So you can't go 100% by the website when you look at the Jubilee. The speaker most are using is the bass bin (which is the "Jubilee"). We are then keeping the midrange horn but dropping the midrange driver. Then we drop the tweeter horn and move the tweeter driver, down to the midrange horn. (actually they come delivered this way)

So for residential use, we are using the bass bin shown on the commercial lineup but, using the tweeter driver on the midrange horn.

Don't let that mislead you. They sound fantastic and will pin your ears back if you want them to AND sound fantastic while doing it. When using active, the tweeter is crossed to at 380hz.

So you don't need to worry about the Jubilee being discontinued. Truth be told it was never officially offered for residential use and still isn't 'officially' offered. There are one or two hurdles that one needs to surmount between making the decision to buy a pair (or quad as someone has done), and flipping out your credit card to have them arrive several weeks later at your front door.

As for pricing, none of their commercial stuff shows prices. That is up to the end vendor and their proposals. This is where someone needs to be careful and not pretend to know everything and defer to those who might know more.

Your pricing above is close enough since you have it listed for a single speaker. To date, there are about 26 owners and I'm only aware of three buyers who for various reasons, needed to sell. Point being, to wait for these to come to the used market is futile.

One of the original owners who had to sell did so because he was diagnosed with some kind of tumor by his nearing nerve and will be losing his hearing. Unfortunate. I say that to point out that not everyone who sold them did so to find greener pastures.
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