List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 824 Old 01-13-2012, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Link to Google Spreadsheet!

Link to [static, sorted by performance] published from Google doc.

Partial list below. Go to the PDF (below) or the Google spreadsheet for all info.

Klipsch\tKPT-Jubilee
Klipsch\tKPT-Jubilee 535
JTR\tTriple 12HT
ElectroVoice\tVariplex II HPK
ElectroVoice\tVariplex II
JBL Pro\t4722N
Danley S. L.\tSH-50
Danley S. L.\tSM-60F
JBL Pro\t3722N
JBL Pro\t3732
Klipsch\tLa Scala II
Klipsch\tKlipschorn
Yamaha\tDSR112
Klipsch\tKLF-30
JTR\tTriple 8HT
QSC\tKW153
JBL Pro\t4670D
JBL Pro\t4675
QSC\tKW152
Klipsch\tCF-3
Danley S. L.\tSH-60M
ElectroVoice\tSx300Pi
Klipsch\tCornwall III
Klipsch\tKLF-20
JBL Pro\tMRX512M
Procella\tP860
QSC\tK12
QSC\tKW122
Genelec\t1036A
RWO Fostex\tLS/3
AudioKinesis \tThunderchild
JBL Pro\t3677
RWO Fostex\tLS/4
JBL Pro\t3678
Klipsch\tHeresy III
Seaton\tCatalyst
QSC\tK10
Tannoy\tDefinition Install DC12i
Carvin\tPM10
JTR\tSingle 8HT
Danley S. L.\tSH-100
Klipsch\tKL-650-THX
Chase\tSHO-10
eD\teD[c]12
Klipsch\tKL-525-THX
RWO Fostex\tLS/2
Peavey\tPR10
Genelec\t1038B
ElectroVoice\tSx100+
Pro Audio Tech.\tSCR12sm
QSC\tK8
ElectroVoice\tELX112
Mackie\tC200
Zu Audio\tOmen Center
Yorkville\tYX10
Chase\tPRO-10
Klipsch\tRC-62 II
eD\teD[c]6.Center
Triad\tInRoom LCR Platinum
Klipsch\tRB-81
JBL Pro\tLSR6332
Ayon Audio\tBlackbird
Procella\tP610
Procella\tP8
ME Geithain\tRL 801K
Adam Audio\tS3X-V
Axiom Audio\tM50
PMC\tBB5
Dynaudio\tM2
Axiom Audio\tVP160
Seaton \tSpark
Coincident Speaker Tech\tTriumph Extreme II
Axiom Audio\tM22
PMC\tMB2S
ElectroVoice\tZX1
Genelec\t1038CF
Tannoy\tDefinition Install DC8i
eD\teD[c]6
Paradigm\tCC-390
Klipsch\tRB-61
Axiom Audio\tM3
JBL\tStudio L890
K+H\tO 410 Studio Monitor
Triad\tInRoom LCR Gold
Genelec\tAOW312B
JBL Pro\tLSR4326P
Ascend Acoustics\tCMT-340 SE
Tannoy\tDefinition Install DC6i
JBL Synthesis\tLs 80
KRK\tExpose
Paradigm\tCC-370
Paradigm\tSignature S8
Hsu Research\tHB-1 MK2
Hsu Research\tHC-1 MK2
SVSound\tMTS-02
PMC\tIB2S
Energy\tRC-10

 

 

Reference-Capable-Speakers.pdf 442.220703125k . file
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post #2 of 824 Old 01-13-2012, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Last Updated March 26, 2012

Why?
This is intended to be a reference list of speakers with higher sensitivity, capable of higher SPL, and more importantly yield great dynamics, which are some of the desirable traits for home theater speakers. I use "low distortion" as a term here because many people are experiencing clipped peaks and distortion without realizing it. They'd never think so, because they don't play near reference level. So this document can be helpful in showing what different speakers will output with what watts.

This is borne out of my own quest for such speakers, and there appears to be rising interest in this category. I often see a few makes and models thrown out as options in threads, but inconsistently, and the thread often dies with people wanting more.

What It Is
This is mainly an aggregate of manufacturers' own specs allowing one to compare speakers in the context of their output and the watts required for reference level at 12 feet, and how loud it'll get with the typical 100w receiver. It's more of an educational tool than a shopping tool. Hence, I've included many speaker that people have asked to be included, such as speakers that were known for high output but may be discontinued and difficult to acquire today. There are also "gray area" speakers that almost achieve reference level. There's another list of speakers that I had initially included for comparison sake, but are not reference level capable.

The list is also filtered through my editing and weighting in the scoring columns, and some specs have been corrected for comparison purposes or where reviews have consistently found the manufacturer data to be wrong or misleading.

What It's Not
This is not a definitive list, as every speaker cannot be included. I add them as I come across them or people recommend them.

This is not a definitive shopping tool. The pricing might sometimes be average new prices, or reported dealer prices, or MSRP. Your own shopping will likely find different prices.

It's not always perfectly accurate; just as professional publications print corrections every month, I too make copy-paste mistakes or misinterpret data. I try to ask where I have questions, and I try to add comments on individual cells to qualify the data (e.g. where the sensitivity was dropped 3dB to get from a reported in-room to anechoic).

This is not a list of speakers by quality. Maximum output and dynamic capability at higher output are only a couple attributes of speaker among many. And even those may be meaningless to many people, in the same way that an automobile's top speed has no bearing on one's car purchase if one will never drive it that fast, except as bragging rights. If you never listen louder than -15dBFS from reference level, then most speakers of middlin' efficiency and limited power handling will work fine, because you'll only send the speakers a few watts of power.

Reference Level?
The term is often mentioned as a benchmark of output. It's really just what it says, a reference level. It is not the "ideal level" or the "best level." Although this is a gray area, as supposedly many commercial theaters are supposed to be calibrated and capable to play at this level, and film soundtrack mastering is performed at this level.

Reference Level, 0dBFS (0dB Full Scale (digital), is the maximum level the soundtracks can be recorded at for any given channel. It equates to SPL peak output for each five or seven channels of 105dB and 115dB for the LFE channel at the listening position. The soundtrack will rarely reach this level, but it's a reference point. Even if people rarely play at this loud level, it's good to calibrate so that you know where your volume is at for comparison purposes. This is loud, but in a better-treated room with better equipment, it sounds more natural. The dynamic peaks are loud enough that it the sounds will affect you at a more instinctual level. It also ensures that the softest sounds are above the system's (which includes the room, HVAC, etc.) noise floor.

The requirements to reach reference level, or any volume, differ from speaker to speaker, amp to amp, room to room, and with different seating distances.

It's also a benchmark elsewhere, such as for THX certification.

Isn't that insanely loud?
Remember that the 105dB is for peaks, not average levels, which are 85dB. The peaks are brief, transient spikes, and they don't harm hearing.

In the real world:
  • the dishes clattering might be 90-ish decibels (1 meter)
  • a roaring passenger car might be 100dB (1 meter).
  • standing next to a grand piano 109dB.
  • a rock concert 111dB (40 feet away)
  • drum set (at moment of strike) 125dB

You can see it's not outlandish in an action movie to have brief peaks of sound of 100 or 105dB to simulate at a much lower level the sounds of the action.

The other issue is perception of loudness. Much of the time, when we say a theater system is "too loud" we at least partially mean, "It sounds bad!" As typical weaker systems are tasked with trying to play beyond their limits, they produce bad sound, in the form of distortion. We don't like distortion, so we say, "it's too loud!" What we're really judging is the system, not the SPL per se. Picture driving in a poorly-built vehicle at too high a velocity for the vehicle and the road. All the smoke, vibration, skidding, bad engine sounds, the out of control feeling, add up to a bad experience. An automobile that is more capable would yield a much better experience at the same speed. And a better road (theater room) would make it better still.

Why is this a big deal?
Most home systems cannot approach this level. As stated above, -15dBFS (15 decibels below reference level) is fairly easy to achieve. The relationship between watts and SPL is not linear. 3dB increase of SPL requires twice the watts. Twice the loudness is 10dB, and that's ten times the watts. Fortunately, even a few watts into an inefficient speaker will produce enough sound for casual TV watching, background music, or critical music listening in a quiet environment.

Unfortunately, the requirements are exponentially higher when you want to listen closer to reference level, where typical speakers will require hundreds or even thousands of watts! When the speakers and amps are not up to the task, we get reduced output and distortion.

Data
I'll be pasting the list of speakers and what data I can in a more limited format, but I'm maintaining the master as a Google Docs spreadsheet which has the most information.

Color Coding
I used conditional formatting to come up with color coding. Dark red = bad, oranges less bad, yellow almost good enough, greens are good, blues are better, and dark blues are superlative. Lots of subjective thinking here, as I realize that sensitivity is neither bad or good, but rather a design decision. However, it plays such a huge part in speakers' ability to output high spl with low distortion, that I'm willing to judge it. The colors have been "normalized" when I saw huge gaps in the colors or a cluster of a lot of numbers using the same color.

Fields / Columns
Manufacturer

Model

Type: Floor, Stand, Center, Surround

Orig Purpose: Indicates what the speaker was originally manufactured for. Monitor (studio or stage monitor, usually for near to midfield. Maybe I should break that up into near, midfield, and farfield monitors?), Home, Stage

Price Used (each): When the speaker has been discontinued.
Price New (each): I either take the manufacturer's MSRP, or find it on dealer websites and try to take an average, or at worst I have to dig through forum posts.

Active / Passive: Active speakers have built-in amps, or are intended to connect to rack-mounted amps with tailored DSP. Has implications for all the numbers, because I usually have to extrapolate the sensitivity, for which I use low frequency (amp, woofer, SPL, etc.). I need more guidance on how to treat these.

Sensitivity dB (anechoic): These numbers are given with different or no qualifiers by manufacturers. Anechoic, in-room, in-corner, two speakers, 1m, 2m, half-space, 1w, 4ohm 1w, 2.83v 4 ohm... Fortunately, pro speakers usually list the max peak SPL, so using that and their stated peak watt handling, I can extrapolate what the sensitivity is (this is required for active speakers) or whether they meant half space or full space. For instance, the Hsu HB-1 is 92dB half space, so I dropped it 3dB. Unfortunately, this isn't exact...I see some manf. specify the in-room sensitivity as 4dB higher than anechoic. Some manufacturers are anecdotedly known in forums, and tested in reviews, to be off on sensitivity by 3-4dB. For those known lines, I simply reduce the number by 3dB. But if people could come forward with more reviews on specific speakers reporting the tested sensitivity, I'll correct numbers.

For 4 ohm speakers with sensitivity given as dB @ 2.83v/1m, I have normalized for comparison to the 8ohm speaker by dropping sensitivity 3dB. Ideally, manufacturers give sensitivity as dB @ 1w/1m.

Watts to Reach 105dB 12 ft LP: Gives you an idea of what kind of power would be required for reference level peaks. This is "The number of watts you'll need to send the speaker to reach a 105dB peak with a listening position 12 feet away, in an anechoic room, using the anechoic sensitivity." So, three parameter assumptions: desired level of peaks, distance, and type of room. In the Calcs sheet I can change those numbers, and some day I'll figure out how to present this data and let YOU override those numbers.

When you see that Speaker X would need 1,000 watts to reach reference peak, you can judge whether you'd ever have that big of an amp.

% Watts Peak: This is the percent of the speaker's peak power handling that is required to reach the 105dB from 12 feet. It's one thing if Speaker X needs 1,000 watts, and you're even willing to provide that power. But it's all moot if the manufacturer states that the speaker can only handle 200 watts peak!

100 watts dB: The SPL you'll get from the speaker 12 feet away, when you feed it 100 watts. This is another number that educates, because 100 watts is such a typical number for receivers.

Program Watts: Usually between continuous and peak power handling. I don't even include continuous, because most of these speakers will handle 85dB continuous output just fine. Continuous is with a sine wave with a 3dB crest factor, so maybe it is representative of the worst compressed music out there. But generally Program is more representative of real material. Many pro speakers give this datum. JBL, Danley, etc. When they only give continuous and peak, I split the difference.

Program Watts dB (12ft): SPL you'll get from the speaker fed program watts @ 12 feet. Again, some day the 12 feet will be a distance variable that the public can change and tailor the numbers for their own needs.

Peak Watts: Usually 4x Continuous, 2x Program, so when not given, I extrapolated.

It's not the average output levels that most speakers struggle with; it's the peaks. The amp either clips on them, softly (not noticeable) or harshly. As FOH says, this is "insidious" when you don't realize it, but it makes the music / program less dynamic, less real, less scary, when you're missing those transient from plucked strings, piano notes, drum hits, or the gun shot. Or the speaker can't handle the peak watts required and distorts, bottoms out, or leaves the magnetic gap a big and doesn't give us the volume we should have (if just the woofer does this, then the sound gets more bright).

Some manufacturers test to give this number. This is difficult to test, as we're not talking about a continuous signal (which would be continuous power handling). The peak power handling is so much higher because the voice coil has time to cool between peaks. Sometimes the number means "this is where the speaker might be destroyed." Other times it means "this is where the distortion is unacceptable (whatever that means)." Others: "This is where this type of distortion reached 10%, with this type of signal," which is obviously a much better qualification of the number (this is rare, unfortunately).

Peak dB: The SPL you'll get when sending quick peaks to the speaker at the level of the Peak Watts. Lately this is how the list is sorted.

Scores: These are different scorings with different weights for sensitivity, price, power handling, etc.

Active Specs: For active speakers, which include amplifiers, or require specific outboard amps with DSP, the watts for each driver are listed: Low Frequency, Mids, High Frequency.

Freq -3dB: The -3dB point of the speaker, which is the frequency range. I used to list just the lower point, but then I noticed some pro cinema speakers rolled off a 16kHz. Sometimes this point is interpolated for speakers where only a -6dB or -2dB point is given in literature.

Distortion: I wish this was given more often, and I wish it was given at a higher output level stressing the speaker more. This column was added later, so I intend to return to many of the speakers' literature, or search for lab tests, and present distortion numbers. Soundstage has such measurements.

Ohms: Nominal impedance.

Dispersion Degrees: More applicable for horn speakers. The horizontal dispersion is given first. Generally one wants to limit dispersion to the floor and ceiling. Depending on application, you may want more horizontal dispersion (like for a center), or less horizontal (if you're trying to minimize side wall reflections).

LF (in): Number and size in inches of the low frequency drivers.

MF (in): Number and size in inches of the mid frequency drivers.

HF (in): Number and size in inches of the high frequency drivers.

Wave-guide: Short description of the wave guide (horn), e.g. "ellip CD" = Elliptical wave guide with a Compression Driver.

URL: Web page address of specs.

Notes / Misc: Other ocassional information.

Range of Speakers
Included are the common highly-touted reference level speakers, and pro-audio speakers, and also some that simply are often mentioned as great for theater.

Many speakers will not be horns. Many will be ugly. Some we find will never have been considered for home theater, and some of those may be new-found gems (hopefully!), while others will be found to be completely unsuitable for home theater. We may want to keep them in the list with explanation of why they're inappropriate. Some will be capable of reference level with outboard amps. Some will clearly not reach RL at 12 feet, but may be suitable for someone wanting -5db without distortion, for example.

How Calculated
Speaking of which, I started off using the SPL calculator here and I'm calculating with one speaker, away from walls, at 12 feet.

Later, as the errors mounted in having to calculate each speaker manually, I incorporated formulas, such as =(10^((Calcs!B$3-(I25+(20*log(3.2808399/Calcs!B$2))))/10)).

A Work in Progress
  • I don't have all of the sampling of commonly suggested theater speakers yet. Sometimes I'm aware of a speaker, but I don't have data on its specs yet. Write in recommendations. Point me to reviews! Correct my mistakes!
  • While I'm listing the manufacturers' recommended input wattages, I'm unsure about how to translate different manufacturer's specs, such as continuous, program, and peak. Of course they're all inconsistent, even within the same make!
  • The types of attributes are in flux. I'd like to add others like Directivity Factor and Directivity Index, but I'm still learning on how to incorporate these.
  • Ideally this should become a database-driven web application, like Ricci's. In time I hope to trick co-workers into giving me some development time.

So this list is only a few months old. With help and suggestions and education it will get refined. I welcome lots of input!
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post #3 of 824 Old 01-13-2012, 06:55 PM
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I'm not sure the RB Kilpsch make it on this list? But certainly Khorns, LaScala, Cornwall, Rf7, several other Rf, some KG's, Palladiums, Jubs would qualify.
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post #4 of 824 Old 01-13-2012, 07:02 PM
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I look forward to this thread. Subscribed!

Didn't know the hsu hb1s could reach refs?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post
I'm not sure the RB Kilpsch make it on this list? But certainly Khorns, LaScala, Cornwall, Rf7, several other Rf, some KG's, Palladiums, Jubs would qualify.
Added Cornwall III and Heresy III.

I will absolutely add more Klipsch speakers.

I am also looking for guidance on how much to reduce their (and others') sensitivity spec when they don't specify anechoic, or the methods are suspect. For instance, should the RB-51, which Klipsch reports as 94db, really be dropped by -3db to 91db (as I did other speakers, and as other threads have reported with other speakers)? Or a more mild -2db, to 92db? I chose the latter.

I find it interesting that at the same time I'm drawn to the "King of the Hill" obvious champ speakers, I'm also interested in the edge cases, and that's why I started with the Hsu HB-1 and smaller Klipsch's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post
I look forward to this thread. Subscribed!

Didn't know the hsu hb1s could reach refs?
Thanks!

Value Score
I massively tweaked the "value score" equation, as well as the "% watts to achieve reference". The score was adjusted because I noticed faults in it, as I updated values and I wouldn't see any change in the score (or it'd go in the wrong direction!). Or, I wouldn't see enough change. This is still the case in a few cases, like the two Hsu speakers, where one costs half as much as the other, but only gains a point. How much should it gain? Well, it's a value judgement, and everyone will disagree.

But I think it's a little validated when you look at the hard numbers and see some anomaly, and then look over and see, "Oh, it has some other mitigating specs."

Such as the ElectroVoice ZX-1. Its sensitivity is only 91 but its crazy good power handling, and thus peak db, bump it up. ***UPDATE *** Argh I just noticed the ZX-1 was too anomolous. I had some bad numbers in there. Corrected. I guess the scoring helps point out the areas to do gut-checks and error-checks on! Still sticks out, but not as much as before. ***

Or, the opposite: Paradigm CC-390. It has great sensitivity. But the price, and the weaker power handling, drop its score.

Hsu HB-1
Yeah, a couple ways to look at this speaker. You won't achieve reference level easily. But you can, with 106% of its rated peak watts (500). Or, you can look at the 1/8 peak watts db column, which I think people have said indicates where compression starts (did they mean 1/8th db, or 1/8th peak watts?). It'll hit 98.7 db.

Still, useful to see, whether that means it's still a good buy (eg because you know you want to be at -10 db), or because you cross it off your list. Regardless, this speaker will certainly experience less compression than many speakers bandied about the forum!

 

Reference Capable Speakers - ver 1.1.pdf 271.8876953125k . file
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Don't forget the Klipsch klf series, mainly the 20's and 30's
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Be sure to include the following three models - the RWO/Fostex Laboratory Series!! They are perhaps the finest monitors ever offered. They were used by the JVC Cutting Centre for mastering high definition vinyl as well as many of the top studios.

Very highly sought after, they rarely come on the market as they are still in use and studio owners virtually would never give them up. Awesome specs!!

http://gray.mb.ca/fostex/RWO-FOSTEX%...20MONITORS.pdf

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Just noticed your "away from wall" comment. The LS monitors are calibrated for 2-pi or "half-space" and are intended for "in-wall" or "soffit" mounting.

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Seaton Catalysts.

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Procella Audio
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JBL LSR6332, for those who "don't' like horns."
Gedlee Nathan/Abbey/Summa
Lotsa Danley Sound Labs models from SH100 up.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post
Don't forget the Klipsch klf series, mainly the 20's and 30's
I added those two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post
Be sure to include the following three models - the RWO/Fostex Laboratory Series!! ...
Added those three. Although the pricing was a big question mark. I guessed based upon $5,000 list for one of them in '77.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post
Just noticed your "away from wall" comment. The LS monitors are calibrated for 2-pi or "half-space" and are intended for "in-wall" or "soffit" mounting.
Thanks...So should their 88db be dropped by 3db to 85db?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4daisy View Post
Seaton Catalysts.
Added, but not sure on pricing, and not sure how to spec active monitors, so I faked it, based on SPL comment Mark Seaton made that I read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post
I've added the P8, but I'll sure to add more later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
JBL LSR6332, for those who "don't' like horns."
Gedlee Nathan/Abbey/Summa
Lotsa Danley Sound Labs models from SH100 up.
Added the JBL. The I started adding the Gedlees, but I didn't see published power handling specs. Can someone help?

Fixed a few more errors that I found in the 1/8th power compression.

 

Reference Capable Speakers - ver 1.2.pdf 353.1953125k . file
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Here's the make models of those that can do 95db with 1/8th of peak power (where power compression reportedly begins) at 12 foot listening position.

Code:
JTR             Triple 12HT
JTR             Triple 8HT
Klipsch         KLF-30
Seaton          Catalyst
Klipsch         KLF-20
Klipsch         Cornwall III
Carvin          PM10
AWO Fostex      LS/3
Tannoy          Definition Install DC12i
AWO Fostex      LS/4
JTR             Single 8HT
Danley S. L.    SH-100
Klipsch         Heresy III
Chase           SHO-10
Peavey          PR10
eD              eD[c]12
Mackie          C200
Klipsch         RC-62 II
AWO Fostex      LS/2
eD              eD[c]6.Center
JBL             LSR6332
Procella        P8
Yorkville       YX10
Chase           PRO-10
Klipsch         RB-81
Klipsch         KL-525-THX
ElectroVoice    ZX1
Tannoy          Definition Install DC8i
eD              eD[c]6
Klipsch         RB-61
JBL             Studio L890
Paradigm        CC-390
Ascend Acstcs   CMT-340 SE
Hsu Research    HB-1 MK2
Hsu Research    HC-1 MK2
JBL Synthesis   Ls 80
Tannoy          Definition Install DC6i
Here's an image of the sheet, but missing the "bottom-feeders."
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post #14 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 02:33 PM
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Most speakers i've been looking into for HT ,..Sierra's , Energy RC10, Monitor Audio,.., ect, accompanied with subs ,have much lower sensitivity levels.

I listen at moderate levels (-15 on amp) , how would this effect listening to HT for me at moderate listening levels , what would i be missing ?
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post #15 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 02:38 PM
 
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Great thread!. I see hsu made the list. I'm also subscribe great work!
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post #16 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

Most speakers i've been looking into for HT ,..Sierra's , Energy RC10, Monitor Audio,.., ect, accompanied with subs ,have much lower sensitivity levels.

I listen at moderate levels (-15 on amp) , how would this effect listening to HT for me at moderate listening levels , what would i be missing ?

I listen to rc10s at neg 15 in my room and its fine :0

Well I hope I'm not missing anything lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #17 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I listen to rc10s at neg 15 in my room and its fine :0

It's just because the OP said that speakers with high sensitivity 91+ db yield much better Dynamics for HT ??
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post #18 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 03:29 PM
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Seeing the compiled list you have is giving me the itch to upgrade yet again....

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #19 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

Most speakers i've been looking into for HT ,..Sierra's , Energy RC10, Monitor Audio,.., ect, accompanied with subs ,have much lower sensitivity levels.

I listen at moderate levels (-15 on amp) , how would this effect listening to HT for me at moderate listening levels , what would i be missing ?

If the receiver is calibrated so that "0" = 0 dbfs, then it's possible for a soundtrack to output a signal that calls for a brief 105db peak, when you're at "0". If you're at "-15", then that full loudness peak would be 15db lower than 105, so it'd be 90db.

If your speaker can't output 90db completely cleanly, without any compression or distortion, then what comes out of the speaker will be different than the signal intended ("distortion") and/or the volume won't be as loud as intended. eg, you'll get an 85db peak instead of a 90db peak.

The closer you try to play to reference, the more difficult this is, and the more important either a lot of watts and a speaker that can handle them, or a high sensitivity speaker.

I'll scare up some links and diagrams.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I listen to rc10s at neg 15 in my room and its fine :0

Well I hope I'm not missing anything lol

I'd better add the RC-10s next!

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

It's just because the OP said that speakers with high sensitivity 91+ db yield much better Dynamics for HT ??

Right...a lot of the speakers being offered, recommended, and bought do fine at -20, or if it's music without much dynamics. But they are leaving a lot behind. It's just hard to tell, until you've experienced otherwise. Like someone from the 1800s who never experienced fast acceleration in a motorcycle or aircraft.
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post #20 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 04:29 PM
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Klipsch LaScala, about 104 db/watt
Klipsch Khorn, about 104 db/watt
Klipsch Jubilee, about 109 db/watt (with active)

I didn't see those on the list, pardon if I've missed them.
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post #21 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

Klipsch LaScala, about 104 db/watt
Klipsch Khorn, about 104 db/watt
Klipsch Jubilee, about 109 db/watt (with active)

I didn't see those on the list, pardon if I've missed them.

I will definitely add them. Spent about six hours today on this.
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post #22 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 05:40 PM
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Awesome thread. This is going to help my search a bunch.
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post #23 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Added an Energy, AudioKinesis, Heritage Klipsch, and EV. Fixed some errors and got rid of wrapping on long URLs or comments.


Coytee, I had a lot of trouble finding Jubilee info; I didn't see the 2-way on the Klipsch site, and I'd find various incomplete or contradictory info on the web.

Can you tell me what the power handling of the passive version is, the size of the drivers, confirm the sensitivity, and maybe you have other info like the directivity, dispersion degrees, etc.? Whatever you have, I can use later as I add details over time.

 

Reference-Capable-Speakers-1_3.pdf 340.181640625k . file
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post #24 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Coytee, I had a lot of trouble finding Jubilee info; I didn't see the 2-way on the Klipsch site, and I'd find various incomplete or contradictory info on the web.

Can you tell me what the power handling of the passive version is, the size of the drivers, confirm the sensitivity, and maybe you have other info like the directivity, dispersion degrees, etc.? Whatever you have, I can use later as I add details over time.

The 2way Jubilee isn't an official Klipsch SKU product. It's a special order that can now be ordered in the industrial black (like the early buyers) or, now they offer the bass bin with a Walnut or Cherry finish. I don't know what details you want... the 2-way version won't take the total power a 3-way will however, the 2-way will still chase you out of the room with 25/50 watt peaks so it's somewhat irrelevant how much it handles. There IS in fact a sticker on my bass bin that says 1200 watts input, just like your chart.

Regarding the passive... answer is no, I have no idea what the power handling of the passive version is. Again, from a practical standpoint it doesn't matter. I would suspect the passive would "soak up" more power than an active version since the crossover itself will act as a parasite and bleed off some energy? I've got a pair of Crown K2's attached to each of mine and you don't really want to be in the same room when the amps themselves are 'streching their legs'. The speakers are in full sprint mode well before my amps are even walking.

The other stuff is on the technical side as well. Most of it (that is public) is posted on the Klipsch forum.... it just happens that most of that is out of my realm of my understanding. Heck, I probably have most of the plots saved to my hard drive but simply don't know what they represent enough to know any better!!!
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post #25 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 08:54 PM
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One reason (the only one?) the 2-way won't take the same power as the 3-way is we're crossing to the tweeter around 380 Hz. Letting the tweeter cover both midrange and treble.
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post #26 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow what a low xover! I can see how it's a special design.
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post #27 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 09:28 PM
 
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No MartinLogan???
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post #28 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Ha. Well, you realize, the reason I wanted to start this is list is because I _don't_ know all the best speakers for high dynamics theater.

And your question is your contribution to getting Martin Logan added.

Do you know if the sensitivity spec is to be trusted?
And where I can find program and peak power ratings? Their specs are a little sparse on the site.

TIA
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post #29 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 11:02 PM
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The BFM DR-200 has very high sensitivity and can play loud but it is DIY but their are builders for it. $600 for a builder and you get 104 dB sensitivity and 127 dB capability! They need to be crossed over high though. The DR-280 can have 110 dB sensitivity with 136 dB capability for $1050.
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post #30 of 824 Old 01-14-2012, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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When you recommended it I checked out the site but didn't know where to beginning, and how to price it.

I'll take a look again and read your thread some more and probably have questions. Thanks!
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