Benefit of bi-wire speakers? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 07:02 AM
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In electrical values how many orders of magnitude difference is there between the highest electrical parameter of the speaker wires and the lowest component value in a moderste/high end speaker crossover ???
Hundreds ?
Thousands ?
Tens of thousands ?
One million ?

And you are arguing that the wire is going to make a difference ???
Yeah, right.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #62 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chashint View Post

In electrical values how many orders of magnitude difference is there between the highest electrical parameter of the speaker wires and the lowest component value in a moderste/high end speaker crossover ???
Hundreds ?
Thousands ?
Tens of thousands ?
One million ?

And you are arguing that the wire is going to make a difference ???
Yeah, right.

That scenario is a common thread seen throughout the advertising of the cable shysters, who characteristically refer to results that can occur with hundreds of feet of cable at radio frequencies and even in the finest of print don't acknowledge that no such effects occur with typical cable lengths at audio frequencies.

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Let's say that we believe what Richard Vandersteen is saying. I think his reputation warrants this.

Show measured repeatable results. Otherwise this remains in the same realm as Cold Fusion.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
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post #63 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As long as you continue to base your arguments on an incorrect understanding of basic electrical circuit fundamentals, the conclusions you arrive at will of course be incorrect. I hope that the following explanation will help you arrive at a better understanding:

Within a speaker that is properly designed for bi-wiring, there are two completely separate circuits attached to the two sets of terminals, an HF circuit (consisting of speakers and electrical components) and an LF circuit (consisting of different speakers and electrical components).

In the case of the LF circuit, the HF current cannot flow because it is blocked by electrical components that have a high reactance to HF (inductors). You seem to think that the HF current can somehow flow through the wires going to the LF terminals even though the circuit has high reactance to HF internally and blocks this flow.

This would imply that the HF current can flow as far as the speaker even though there is nowhere for it to go when it gets there. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of an electrical circuit and the difference between current and voltage. The wires are in series with the internal LF circuit, and if the HF current cannot flow within the LF circuit of the speaker (and it cannot), then it cannot and will not flow in that pair of connecting wires either.

The fact that all frequencies are AVAILABLE as VOLTAGE at the power source (the amplifier) terminals does not imply that all frequencies will flow in the form of actual CURRENT in every wire connected to them. There must be an available path for those frequencies to flow at the other end of the wires or CURRENT will not flow in the wires at those frequencies.

The inverse of all of the above obviously is true of the HF circuit.

My credentials have nothing to do with anything. The fact that you apparently have an incorrect understanding of basic electrical principles is causing you to misunderstand the entire concept of bi-wiring, which is completely accepted and well-understood in the audio industry (not that everyone agrees that it has sonic merit).

Speaker designers and manufacturers go to the added expense and trouble of separating the speaker internally into two separate circuits precisely so that the LF current and HF current can be provided separately by two separate pairs of wires, each of which then carries a lower current as well as separate groups of frequencies.

commsysman,

Thank you for the clear explanation. If this is indeed the correct way that it works, then I will humbly eat my crow. As I have said before, I do not know much about electronics and had thought I understood how electrical current flows through a wire. Thank you for your patience and perseverance in explaining this to me.

With this in mind, since I had the foresight to run three sets of wires to all speaker locations, I will try to bi-wire my speakers once I am done remodeling the rest of my house. Not anytime soon though. Of course I be doing measurements with REW and a calibrated mic. This will not be a subjective test as I don't think I would hear a difference from the sounds of it. This will just be an exercise to see if there is any measurable difference in the audible frequencies if I were to bi-wire my speakers.

Once I am ready, I will start a post listing my methodology to see if it is flawed before I begin. Off the top of my head, I know I will be running multiple measurements at different times of the day for each setup to minimize influence of background noise during the tests. I will then take the average and report that. Never used REW before, but just purchased the mic and cables to try it when I have time.
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post #64 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 09:24 AM
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I am absolutely ready to accept what you say as correct, as i am ready to accept m.zilch's post #53 as correct.

Given that with bi-wiring no LF current flows over the wire to the HF circuit (what you said makes sense, I accept your premise)...

...how is this any different than the fact that without bi-wiring no LF current would flow along the wire from the jumper to the HF circuit.

The driver experiences nothing different.

The amp experiences nothing different.

And the listener experiences nothing different.

The only difference is where in the path between the amp and the crossover circuits does it go from a single wire to a double wire. Electrically the endpoints will experience the exact same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As long as you continue to base your arguments on an incorrect understanding of basic electrical circuit fundamentals, the conclusions you arrive at will of course be incorrect. I hope that the following explanation will help you arrive at a better understanding:

Within a speaker that is properly designed for bi-wiring, there are two completely separate circuits attached to the two sets of terminals, an HF circuit (consisting of speakers and electrical components) and an LF circuit (consisting of different speakers and electrical components).

In the case of the LF circuit, the HF current cannot flow because it is blocked by electrical components that have a high reactance to HF (inductors). You seem to think that the HF current can somehow flow through the wires going to the LF terminals even though the circuit has high reactance to HF internally and blocks this flow.

This would imply that the HF current can flow as far as the speaker even though there is nowhere for it to go when it gets there. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of an electrical circuit and the difference between current and voltage. The wires are in series with the internal LF circuit, and if the HF current cannot flow within the LF circuit of the speaker (and it cannot), then it cannot and will not flow in that pair of connecting wires either.

The fact that all frequencies are AVAILABLE as VOLTAGE at the power source (the amplifier) terminals does not imply that all frequencies will flow in the form of actual CURRENT in every wire connected to them. There must be an available path for those frequencies to flow at the other end of the wires or CURRENT will not flow in the wires at those frequencies.

The inverse of all of the above obviously is true of the HF circuit.

My credentials have nothing to do with anything. The fact that you apparently have an incorrect understanding of basic electrical principles is causing you to misunderstand the entire concept of bi-wiring, which is completely accepted and well-understood in the audio industry (not that everyone agrees that it has sonic merit).

Speaker designers and manufacturers go to the added expense and trouble of separating the speaker internally into two separate circuits precisely so that the LF current and HF current can be provided separately by two separate pairs of wires, each of which then carries a lower current as well as separate groups of frequencies.

It is rather illogical to suggest, as you do, that they would do this if it were not possible to accomplish the desired result. They actually DO understand the electrical theory correctly, and it IS indeed technically correct that bi-wiring does what it is supposed to do.

Whether this makes an audible difference is disputed by highly qualified people who all have good credentials, and yet there are still two groups that disagree. There is no shortage of respected experts in both camps, yet someone has to be wrong. I don't think this issue will be resolved anytime soon.


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post #65 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 09:56 AM
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So, the next time somebody asks should I bi-wire my speakers? or what are the benefits of bi-wiring speakers? shouldn't the answer be:

That is a highly debated topic and it has yet to be determined if there is an audible advantage with bi-wiring. If you can afford the extra speaker wire, you should try both bi-wiring and running a single wire and decide for yourself if bi-wiring improves the sound coming from your speakers. If you can't afford to buy the extra speaker wire, just run a single wire, as a lot of people are happy doing that.
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post #66 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 10:08 AM
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Be sure to post the results when you get to it. I very much doubt if it would be easy to make significant measurements that way. One could look at each wire with a current probe and spectrum analyzer to verify the frequencies flowing in each wire, and also meter how much current flows in each wire with test tones, but other than that I wouldn't know where to start...lol.

I have my Vandersteen 3A speakers bi-wired with 2 sets of #10 Alpha wire, because he recommends it, but I have never run any test to see if a difference is audible. I just did it for the hell of it...lol.

My PSB Image T6 speakers at my other house are NOT bi-wired. I do have some Audioquest bi-wire cables that I used to have on my Vandersteens before I installed the homemade #10 wires, so maybe I will change and see. I don't expect it will be a dramatic difference (if any), but for the sake of science I will try it and see.




Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

commsysman,

Thank you for the clear explanation. If this is indeed the correct way that it works, then I will humbly eat my crow. As I have said before, I do not know much about electronics and had thought I understood how electrical current flows through a wire. Thank you for your patience and perseverance in explaining this to me.

With this in mind, since I had the foresight to run three sets of wires to all speaker locations, I will try to bi-wire my speakers once I am done remodeling the rest of my house. Not anytime soon though. Of course I be doing measurements with REW and a calibrated mic. This will not be a subjective test as I don't think I would hear a difference from the sounds of it. This will just be an exercise to see if there is any measurable difference in the audible frequencies if I were to bi-wire my speakers.

Once I am ready, I will start a post listing my methodology to see if it is flawed before I begin. Off the top of my head, I know I will be running multiple measurements at different times of the day for each setup to minimize influence of background noise during the tests. I will then take the average and report that. Never used REW before, but just purchased the mic and cables to try it when I have time.

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post #67 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 10:10 AM
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That is what I would say. Mostly, I just tell people to run #14 wire and forget it.

I might suggest bi-wiring if very large speakers and very high-power amplifiers are in use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjl4004 View Post

So, the next time somebody asks “should I bi-wire my speakers?” or “what are the benefits of bi-wiring speakers?” shouldn’t the answer be:

That is a highly debated topic and it has yet to be determined if there is an audible advantage with bi-wiring. If you can afford the extra speaker wire, you should try both bi-wiring and running a single wire and decide for yourself if bi-wiring improves the sound coming from your speakers. If you can’t afford to buy the extra speaker wire, just run a single wire, as a lot of people are happy doing that.

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post #68 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Be sure to post the results when you get to it. I very much doubt if it would be easy to make significant measurements that way. One could look at each wire with a current probe and spectrum analyzer to verify the frequencies flowing in each wire, and also meter how much current flows in each wire with test tones, but other than that I wouldn't know where to start...lol.

I have my Vandersteen 3A speakers bi-wired with 2 sets of #10 Alpha wire, because he recommends it, but I have never run any test to see if a difference is audible. I just did it for the hell of it...lol.

My PSB Image T6 speakers at my other house are NOT bi-wired. I do have some Audioquest bi-wire cables that I used to have on my Vandersteens before I installed the homemade #10 wires, so maybe I will change and see. I don't expect it will be a dramatic difference (if any), but for the sake of science I will try it and see.

Don't have either of those and probably won't even know how to use it even if I did. All I have is a mic with calibration file and will download REW. So all I can measure to see is if there would be a measurable frequency difference at the MLP.

I have Revel F52s and just some basic, bulk CL2 rated 12g wiring. I think the 12g should be of sufficient size to not be a limiting factor when using a single set since the runs are only ~35' including the two patch cables from the wall plates to the receiver and speakers. If it may be an issue I can always go out and buy some 10g wire for the tests.
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post #69 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 10:23 AM
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I use O.2 ohms as the limit for a wire run. That is 4 ohms divided by 20....

A pair of #14 wires can be up to 62 feet using that limit, and a pair of #12 wires can be up to 100 feet. If you want to stay under 0.1 ohm, cut the length in half.


Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Don't have either of those and probably won't even know how to use it even if I did. All I have is a mic with calibration file and will download REW. So all I can measure to see is if there would be a measurable frequency difference at the MLP.

I have Revel F52s and just some basic, bulk CL2 rated 12g wiring. I think the 12g should be of sufficient size to not be a limiting factor when using a single set since the runs are only ~35' including the two patch cables from the wall plates to the receiver and speakers. If it may be an issue I can always go out and buy some 10g wire for the tests.

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post #70 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 11:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

My credentials have nothing to do with anything.

Thank goodness it's finally sunk in. One's arguments are either logically sound and supported by scientifically verifiable evidence...or not.
So no more "cyber cred" claims in the future right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Whether this makes an audible difference is disputed by highly qualified people who all have good credentials, and yet there are still two groups that disagree. There is no shortage of respected experts in both camps, yet someone has to be wrong. I don't think this issue will be resolved anytime soon.

...oh no.
Like cold fusion, perpetual motion, homeopathy, etc, etc. the "issue" has long since been resolved amongst the sane, technically literate populace. One "side" has zero audibility evidence. The other "side" are not burdened with proof (and cannot prove a negative).

cheers,

AJ
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post #71 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 11:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjl4004 View Post

So, the next time somebody asks should I buywire my speakers? or what are the benefits of buywiring speakers? shouldn't the answer be:

The same as capacitors, DACs, Power Regenerators, Shakti Stones, VPI bricks, Power Balance wristbands, etc, etc.
If "it" affects your mind, which is a greater part of the "hearing" process than the soundwaves impinging upon the pinna...and you can "hear" it/prefer it subjectively, STOP LOOKING FOR OBJECTIVE "VERIFICATION".
Sit back. relax. Enjoy.
Buywire and stimulate the economy.

cheers,

AJ
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post #72 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post


Just in case you didn't get it the first time.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #73 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 01:47 PM
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Unbelievable amount of misinformation in this thread. Sad, really.

Miles, keep up the good fight.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #74 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Miles, keep up the good fight.

I'm not an anti-biwire crusader. Really, I'm not. IMO, people should do whatever they want to do with their equipment. But, yeah, the incorrect information that was/is being presented as fact was just too much to take. Particularly the MANNER in which it was being presented.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #75 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 02:04 PM
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Just in case you didn't get it the second time.




Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Unbelievable amount of misinformation in this thread. Sad, really.

It IS VERY sad that an 'educator' can be so mislead and can use that ignorance to promote the misinformation. The ignorance will still abound as long as someone is making money, or getting high off of it.

BTW, The Audio Critic was the last audio mag that I saw that was truly worth buying. Not much money in giving out valid advice it seems.
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post #76 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 03:07 PM
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I've got my speakers bi-wired, but that was only because it was a few dollars more and gives more stability in my eyes when hooked up to each bookshelf speaker.

Have a noticed a change in sound quality? Not at all.
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post #77 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chashint View Post

What are you trying to improve ?
What gear do you have ?
In spite of the testimonials you can find in support of bi-wiring, there is simply not an electrical engineering case to support any performance improvement.

Bi-wiring "could" be beneficial when

1. you want to bypass the crossover built-in to the speaker
and
2. you want to power the speakers individually using dedicated amps

if you are going to bi-wire on the speaker, but single wiring on the receiver, it might actually be bad for the tweeter if there is no filter on the tweeter..

For example,

A 4 wheel (AWD) drive car can be powered by the same engine in the hood

OR

You could have one engine in the hood driving the front wheels, and another engine in the trunk driving the rear wheels.

OR

You could have an engine attached to each wheel
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post #78 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

That traffic cop is called a CROSSOVER!!!

The crossover components in the speakers' HF section blocks the LF current, which could be damaging to the HF speakers, and therefore that LF current does not flow in the wires hooked to the HF terminals, because there is a blockage that prevents it from taking that path.

The crossover components in the LF section similarly block all HF current, so that current cannot flow through the wires connected to those terminals.

With both sets of posts on the speaker shorted together, all of the current flows through one set of wires and the crossover SEPARATES and directs the current to the correct place AFTER it enters the speaker cabinet.

Bi-wiring is essentially a way of extending the internal wiring of the speaker all the way back to the amplifier terminals, so that the current separation starts there, as soon as it leaves the amplifier.

Basic electrical principles. A current can only flow in a complete CIRCUIT, not just part of a circuit. If it is blocked at any point, it cannot flow at any point in the circuit.

The bass wires and speaker components form one CIRCUIT with only LF current (in bi-wiring), and the HF wires and speaker components form a second CIRCUIT with only HF flowing.

I'd be more comfortable using HF/LF Signals, not HF/LF current.
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post #79 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinq View Post

Just in case you didn't get it the second time.






It IS VERY sad that an 'educator' can be so mislead and can use that ignorance to promote the misinformation. The ignorance will still abound as long as someone is making money, or getting high off of it.

BTW, The Audio Critic was the last audio mag that I saw that was truly worth buying. Not much money in giving out valid advice it seems.

Show that schematic to Audioquest, Monster, Pass Labs, and numerous other "vendors" and I'm sure we'd be knee deep in pseudoscience, smoke, mirrors, and enough snake oil to obscure any logic.

I suppose the next big argument will be over the "merits" of those high dollar AC cords. I'd have thought this thread was a big hoax if I didn't know better.


Jay

Heavily addicted SACDBA member, starting the twelve steps tomorrow!
Jay
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post #80 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 04:09 PM
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Just in case somebody (like me) missed the 1st, 2nd and 3rd times

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post #81 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

I am very familiar with THIS page. I have even cited it in the past in discussions regarding why manufacturers include biwirable/biampable binding posts on their speakers. But you know what? It's full of fallacious information.

There are many other reputable speaker manufacturers that recommend biwiring their speakers.

And arguments can be made in support of there being a difference in a biwired speaker versus a monowired speaker. But you haven't made them and what you have said is not true.

Here is some reading for you:
PART 1
PART 2

Thank you thank you thank you for this link. It is really good to see this tackled from the proper side (mathematics) as any Engineer worth his salt would do first.
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post #82 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 04:20 PM
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Let's add one more.




Just to keep it interesting.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #83 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 05:13 PM
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What would be really interesting is if someone would actually do some measurement based analysis of bi-wiring (and bi-amping for that matter) and quantify the differences seen (if any). Unfortunately I have not seen any such analysis. However, from a pure technical viewpoint when examining magnetic field interactions there will be a difference between bi-wire and not bi-wired. What remains to be seen is if it will make an audible difference. I tend to think not but can only say that as an opinion without any analysis or listening tests. Some more interesting food for thought:

1. Search enough and you will find people that claim both sides based on listening experience in both bi-wired and single wired configuration. Some will swear they hear a difference with bi-wiring and others will swear there is no difference. Who do you believe?

2. Analysis such as in http://www.audioholics.com/education...able-conundrum, which has been quoted in this thread, completed IGNORES magnetic field interaction between LF and HF signals. More specifically the cable is modeled as a pure resistance while inductive effects are neglected. The end result is flawed in the context of many arguments in this thread. It fails to examine the phenomena which some argue makes bi-wiring worthwhile.
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post #84 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leger433 View Post

What would be really interesting is if someone would actually do some measurement based analysis of bi-wiring (and bi-amping for that matter) and quantify the differences seen (if any). Unfortunately I have not seen any such analysis. However, from a pure technical viewpoint when examining magnetic field interactions there will be a difference between bi-wire and not bi-wired. What remains to be seen is if it will make an audible difference. I tend to think not but can only say that as an opinion without any analysis or listening tests. Some more interesting food for thought:

1. Search enough and you will find people that claim both sides based on listening experience in both bi-wired and single wired configuration. Some will swear they hear a difference with bi-wiring and others will swear there is no difference. Who do you believe?

2. Analysis such as in http://www.audioholics.com/education...able-conundrum, which has been quoted in this thread, completed IGNORES magnetic field interaction between LF and HF signals. More specifically the cable is modeled as a pure resistance while inductive effects are neglected. The end result is flawed in the context of many arguments in this thread. It fails to examine the phenomena which some argue makes bi-wiring worthwhile.

So, how does this magnetic field interaction vary based on the length of the wires?

Because all we are talking about is:

amp
|
single wire
|
double wire
|
HP filter -> tweeter / LP filter -> woofer

and the only difference is the ratio of single wire to double wire.

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Originally Posted by leger433 View Post

What would be really interesting is if someone would actually do some measurement based analysis of bi-wiring...

No. What would be interesting is if a single person who claims it has audible consequences, gets off their azz and demonstrates this under controlled conditions, instead of endless speculation and beating the drums of uncertainty sitting on the sidelines.
The burden of proof lies squarely and entirely upon the buywirers. No one else.

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post #86 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 05:58 PM
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The plot thickens

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post #87 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 06:03 PM
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And please help me understand how a professor with 30 yrs of "experience" calls it HF Current and LF Current????

It is the same current. It only carries different (HF / LF) signals.

High Frequency current would basically weld the speaker wires to the mount
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post #88 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 06:58 PM
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The plot thickens



Is this showing a monowired non-biwireable/non-biampable crossover versus a biwired biwireable/biampable crossover?

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post #89 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

No. What would be interesting is if a single person who claims it has audible consequences, gets off their azz and demonstrates this under controlled conditions, instead of endless speculation and beating the drums of uncertainty sitting on the sidelines.
The burden of proof lies squarely and entirely upon the buywirers. No one else.

cheers,

AJ

I'm basically saying the same thing... However, I have heard people claim that they have personally done controlled tests and heard a difference in bi-wiring. In addition other states the contrary. Now claiming you heard or didn't hear a difference is quite subjective. That is why I would like to see some measurement based testing. That way we could have something quantitative to discuss not personal opinion arguing one way or another.
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post #90 of 273 Old 01-19-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by leger433 View Post

That is why I would like to see some measurement based testing.

Measurements of aural differences? Yeah, right.

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