Benefit of bi-wire speakers? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 273 Old 07-20-2014, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post
You forgot to quote your source:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm
Yes i did, thanks for adding that.
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post #212 of 273 Old 07-20-2014, 05:25 AM
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CinemaAndy, had you read that description BEFORE you made your earlier posts? Because some of your posts made little sense to the OP's questions.
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post #213 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jdcrox View Post
CinemaAndy, had you read that description BEFORE you made your earlier posts? Because some of your posts made little sense to the OP's questions.
It all goes hand in hand. The thread is about the benefit of bi-wiring. And i made my case if you have speakers that need bi-wiring, might as well bi-amp while your at it. Then it was took completely into left field with "passive" and "active" amping.
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post #214 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
To set-up a bi-amped loudspeaker, test equipment is required, along with the knowledge to use it correctly. At a minimum, this means a sound pressure level (SPL) meter and a test CD with a sine wave test tone at the crossover frequency. Much better is a sine wave test tone generator, and these are not cheap..

Unless you mean someone doing it from scratch, I'd respectfully disagree with most of this.


I actively biamp. I use Klipsch cinema speakers. They provided all the PEQ parameters for the active crossover. All I had to do was get all the ingredients, attach them properly and plug the values in. This is coming from someone who had never (ever) biamped before and knew little about it. I went from cold novice one day to working system the next. Frankly, it was easy peasy.


Creating it from scratch on your own? I would retract everything I've said and defer to your comments.
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post #215 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Then it was took completely into left field with "passive" and "active" amping.
Not really. Bi-wiring doesn't do anything. 'Passive' bi-amping also doesn't do anything. Active bi-amping does do something, because it is totally different from 'passive' bi-amping. Many of the statements that you made would lead one to believe that you did not know the difference between the two. Even though you did eventually quote a source that does know the difference I'm still not convinced that you do. Part of the reason for that conclusion is this:

To set-up a bi-amped loudspeaker, test equipment is required, along with the knowledge to use it correctly. At a minimum, this means a sound pressure level (SPL) meter and a test CD with a sine wave test tone at the crossover frequency. Much better is a sine wave test tone generator, and these are not cheap.

That's simply not true, at least as far as the consumer is concerned. It is true at the speaker design stage, but the same is true of designing a passive crossover. The fact of the matter is that it's much easier to implement an active system than it is a passive system, so much so that many professional loudspeaker designers use an active system to determine the best transfer function qualities between the drivers in a system, and then configure passive components to duplicate that transfer function as closely as is possible. I've been using that protocol for the last 25 years.

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post #216 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
And i made my case if you have speakers that need bi-wiring.....................
Speakers NEVER "need bi-wiring".

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post #217 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
It all goes hand in hand. The thread is about the benefit of bi-wiring. And i made my case if you have speakers that need bi-wiring, might as well bi-amp while your at it. Then it was took completely into left field with "passive" and "active" amping.

No, the only speakers that "need" biamping are those that have no crossover network installed. No speaker "needs" biwiring because biwiring doesn't accomplish anything. The left field of "passive" and "active" is the whole point.


Active biamplification requires the use of an active crossover unit in front of the amplifier and the passive crossover in the speaker to be removed or bypassed. It provides two benefits to the audio engineer - better isolation between the drivers and adjustability. It provides little meaningful benefit to the home audio enthusiast. Passive biamplification, like biwiring provides no benefit at all for anybody.


If you wonder why the speaker manufacturers provide the capability for biwiring just think about marketing and competition. There is no electronic point to it at all. The one thing that the audio industry has more of than products is hocus pocus.
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post #218 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:23 AM
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My Quad 22L2s supposedly benefit from bi-wiring, so I bought a pair of Canare Star Quad bi-wires but I never heard any real benefit. If anything, the sound became less crystalline. So I went back to my inexpensive Emotiva speaker cables and the Quads sound just right.

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post #219 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post
Speakers NEVER "need bi-wiring".


I'm not sure what 'need' means in this context, but Vandersteen strongly suggests bi-wiring, and there is a noticeable quality improvement from running jumpers on one wire. There might be other examples, but that's the only one I can think of. Not to open up another can of worms, but this is likely due to their first order networks used in their speakers.


If you like the sound from bi-wiring in your set up and are happy with it then the principle detriment of bi-wiring is buying more wire, which can be practically no real cost. If you try it and like it, roll with it, if not no big whop.


Same with bi-amping. If your AVR allows it, and you can hear a difference, and you don't mind giving up those two channels, go for it. Personally I think what makes bi-amping improve the sound (if it improves it at all, or you feel that it does) is the AVR adjusting crossovers, and nothing to do with bi-amping itself, and possibly the placebo effect. However, I'd rather have the extra channels.


This is what I like about this hobby, you should do what makes you happy, based off what you hear. Let people claim snake oil until the sun goes down. Just be honest with yourself, and make sure whatever you buy has a reasonable return policy.
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post #220 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:28 AM
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What do you mean by: what makes bi-amping improve the sound is the AVR adjusting crossovers.

??

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post #221 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post
What do you mean by: what makes bi-amping improve the sound is the AVR adjusting crossovers.

??

What I think makes bi amping improve the sound (since you didn't copy this part), if it improves it at all, or you feel it does, Is because some AVRs can treat one line as 'highs' and the other as 'lows.'
Also... #PlaceboEffect

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post #222 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post
What do you mean by: what makes bi-amping improve the sound is the AVR adjusting crossovers.

??
Yeah, I didn't even bother.


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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
What I think makes bi amping improve the sound (since you didn't copy this part), if it improves it at all, or you feel it does, Is because some AVRs can treat one line as 'highs' and the other as 'lows.'
What does this mean ClawAndTalon?

All AVRs offer the ability to high-pass the speaker channels and low-pass the low frequencies to a subwoofer. Since this parsing occurs prior to amplification, it can be considered a form of active biamplification. But whether a speaker channel is passively bi-amped or not is completely irrelevant to this process.

If you are somehow implying that AVRs which are capable of 'passive' biamplification filter the content that is sent to the front channel speaker outputs and the surround rear outputs when configured for biamping (ala active biamping), you are incorrect.

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post #223 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
some AVRs can treat one line as 'highs' and the other as 'lows.'
I have never come across that.

(I edited parts of what you said not to change your meaning, but rather to focus on a specific point.)

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post #224 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob840 View Post
My Quad 22L2s supposedly benefit from bi-wiring,
Quad founder Peter Walker was one of the first to point out the snake oil aspects of claims for 'high end' wire. If he was alive today Quad would not be using bi-wire terminals, and anyone employed by him who suggested doing so would find himself with his walking papers in hand in the blink of an eye. I can imagine Peter spinning in the grave at the very notion that Quad has jumped off the integrity train in favor of marketing piffle.

All AVRs offer the ability to high-pass the speaker channels and low-pass the low frequencies to a subwoofer. Since this parsing occurs prior to amplification, it can be considered a form of active biamplification.

It's not a form of active bi-amping, it is active bi-amping, because the signal is split into high and low bandwidths prior to amplification, and there are no passive low pass filters wired to the sub drivers nor high pass filters wired to the midbass drivers.
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post #225 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 08:31 AM
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I hope this helps...
This is cut and pasted from Crutchfield's spec page for the Denon x4000
"One amplifier is connected to the woofer section of a loudspeaker while the other is connected to the combined midrange and tweeter section. With this arrangement each amplifier operates over a limited frequency range, making its job easier."
In other words the AVR sends a limited range of sound to the highs and lows (not counting LFE, so mids, and low mids, if you will).

"(I edited parts of what you said not to change your meaning, but rather to focus on a specific point.)"


I understand. The problem is folks will think I wholeheartedly endorse bi-amping otherwise.

Sorry, I am still learning 'quoting' in AVSs new set up...
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post #226 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
I hope this helps...
This is cut and pasted from Crutchfield's spec page for the Denon x4000
"One amplifier is connected to the woofer section of a loudspeaker while the other is connected to the combined midrange and tweeter section. With this arrangement each amplifier operates over a limited frequency range, making its job easier."
That would be bi-amping if there was an electronic crossover splitting the signals into high and low bandwidths, but there isn't. Crutchfield got it wrong, but only because they cut and pasted from the Denon manual. The Denon manual has it wrong as well. Both amp sets receive the same input signal. There is no electronic crossover to split the signal, nor to define a crossover frequency.
If even manufacturers can't get it right then consumers can be forgiven for being confused. But there's no excuse for manufacturers getting it wrong.

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post #227 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post
I have never come across that.

(I edited parts of what you said not to change your meaning, but rather to focus on a specific point.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
That would be bi-amping if there was an electronic crossover splitting the signals into high and low bandwidths, but there isn't. Crutchfield got it wrong, but only because they cut and pasted from the Denon manual. The Denon manual has it wrong as well. Both amp sets receive the same input signal. There is no electronic crossover to split the signal, nor to define a crossover frequency.
If even manufacturers can't get it right then consumers can be forgiven for being confused. But there's no excuse for manufacturers getting it wrong.

Oh really...


So, if that was right, would it possibly benefit the sound?


That said, how do you know Denon and Crutchfield are wrong. I'm only curious.
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post #228 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
I hope this helps...
This is cut and pasted from Crutchfield's spec page for the Denon x4000
"One amplifier is connected to the woofer section of a loudspeaker while the other is connected to the combined midrange and tweeter section. With this arrangement each amplifier operates over a limited frequency range, making its job easier."
In other words the AVR sends a limited range of sound to the highs and lows (not counting LFE, so mids, and low mids, if you will).

...

This comment is correct for active biamplification but that is not the reason sound techs use biamplification. Of course you couldn't actively biamplify with the receiver anyway unless you used an outboard amplifier.


It is incorrect for passive biamplification. In fact, it is the opposite with passive biamplification. With passive both amplifiers have to deal with the entire frequency spectrum and not a limited range of frequencies. The frequencies that are not produced by the driver are wasted as heat.


Your best bet is not to get your audio science from the audio industry. it is very short on accurate audio science. Denon's purpose with this sort of nonsense is not to give you useful information. It is to sell you a receiver by providing a trumped up benefit that won't hurt anything if you use it.

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post #229 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
\
So, if that was right, would it possibly benefit the sound?
If it was right it would benefit the sound via lowered distortion. But it isn't.
That said, how do you know Denon and Crutchfield are wrong. I'm only curious.Read the manual. There is no section about setting the crossover frequency, ergo there is no crossover, ergo both channels receive the same input information.

With passive both amplifiers have to deal with the entire frequency spectrum and not a limited range of frequencies. The frequencies that are not produced by the driver are wasted as heat.

That's actually not the case. Being SS amps the current delivered is inversely proportional to the impedance load, which is high outside of the driver passbands due to the passive crossover filters, so heat isn't an issue. But since there is no frequency division prior to the amplification stage distortion isn't lowered. Since lowered distortion is the entire reason for active bi-amping you don't gain anything worthwhile. The only benefit to passive bi-amping is being able to say that your AVR has the capability to do it, which is fine from a marketing standpoint but is as useless to the user as mammary glands are to a bull.

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post #230 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
If it was right it would benefit the sound via lowered distortion. But it isn't.
That said, how do you know Denon and Crutchfield are wrong. I'm only curious.Read the manual. There is no section about setting the crossover frequency, ergo there is no crossover, ergo both channels receive the same input information.
I don't have the manual in front of me, however, if I wanted to run 'bi-amping,' I have to change settings on the AVR so that rear surrounds are changed to front mains for the purposes of bi-amping. Is it possible that once this change is made, that the AVR automatically designates the rear surrounds as lower frequencies, and the mains as higher? Also, could it be that there is no 'adjustment setting' for this crossover, and just a single setting?
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post #231 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 12:03 PM
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please stop the bickering, or you will be asked to leave the thread (thread ban)
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post #232 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Is it possible that once this change is made, that the AVR automatically designates the rear surrounds as lower frequencies, and the mains as higher?
no

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Also, could it be that there is no 'adjustment setting' for this crossover, and just a single setting?
no


There are several other parameters besides the high and low-pass filter values that must be adjusted (for example, the slopes of the filters, just for one) in an active biamp setup, too, btw.

And the speakers that are utilized in an active biamp setup do not have their own built-in crossovers. Did you see anything in the manual that described how to bypass the speakers' own internal crossovers? Do you think Denon expects their users to do that?

Assuming the amplifiers are identical (very most likely) you can connect either amp (the front OR the surround rear) to either section of the speaker when the AVR is configured for 'passive' biamping; it doesn't matter. The exact same signal is amplified and fed to each speaker section.

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post #233 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
"There are several other parameters besides the high and low-pass filter values that must be adjusted (for example, the slopes of the filters, just for one) in an active biamp setup, too, btw."

OK, lets assume all of these parameters are preset to one setting. Would that be difficult? Why?
Yes, it would be very difficult if not impossible. Because it is not so simple. OK?

One of the main attractions of active biamping is the tweakability.


Quote:
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"And the speakers that are utilized in an active biamp setup do not have their own built-in crossovers. Did you see anything in the manual that described how to bypass the speakers' own internal crossovers? Do you think Denon expects their users to do that?"

I'm not sure how this relates to my question. I'm refering to using speakers with crossovers in a passive bi-amping situation.
It relates to your question because, yes, exactly - the speakers have their own passive crossover. Passive biamping relies upon this. A full-range signal is sent to the speaker where the speaker's own passive crossover provides the high and low pass filtering function.

Do you understand the difference between passive and active biamping? Because if you truly did I do not think you would be asking these questions.


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"Assuming the amplifiers are identical (very most likely) you can connect either amp (the front OR the surround rear) to either section of the speaker when the AVR is configured for 'passive' biamping; it doesn't matter. The exact same signal is amplified and fed to each speaker section."

Circular reasoning... There's no crossover because there's no crossover? Again, the Denon write up suggests there's an electronic crossover in place. This statement doesn't provide detail that it doesn't exist.
There is no reasoning here at all. Just stating a fact. You can wire either speaker section to either amplifier precisely because there is no crossover applied by the AVR.

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post #234 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 01:56 PM
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Page 33 of the x4000 manual says only the following, and nothing about active filters for low and high amplifiers:

About the Bi-amp connection
Some audiophile loudspeakers can be connected to an amplifier with two separate amp-to-speaker connections per each speaker.
One amplifier channel’s output is hooked up to the speaker’s bass driver (woofer), while the other amplifier drives the upper range
transducers (tweeter, or in some cases midrange and tweeter). This connection method has one amplifier channel driving one half of the bi-amp speaker, and
avoids electrical interference between the speaker’s bass and treble drivers and the driving amplifier channels. You can assign 4 amp channels to
connect to one pair of bi-amp capable speakers. Bi-amp capable speakers always have two sets of speaker input connector pairs, one for the bass range and one for the treble range. If you’re unsure about whether or not your speakers are bi-amp capable, consult the owner’s manual that came with the speakers

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post #235 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 03:41 PM
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"One amplifier is connected to the woofer section of a loudspeaker while the other is connected to the combined midrange and tweeter section. With this arrangement each amplifier operates over a limited frequency range, making its job easier."
What they are trying to say is that each amplifier only has to drive either the low frequency, or the high frequency range, even though it is fed the same full-range signal. And this might well have an effect, (although doubtful), since each amplifier might see different impedance, sensitivity, etc. But they are NOT saying that each amplifier is fed a different frequency range.
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post #236 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
I have to change settings on the AVR so that rear surrounds are changed to front mains for the purposes of bi-amping. Is it possible that once this change is made, that the AVR automatically designates the rear surrounds as lower frequencies, and the mains as higher? Also, could it be that there is no 'adjustment setting' for this crossover, and just a single setting?
No to both. If there is a crossover it must have a frequency adjustment. You can't have an arbitrary crossover frequency between the midbasses and tweeters, because depending on the tweeters used that might be anywhere between 1.5kHz and 5kHz. Set too high the system will sound bad. Set too low it will also sound bad, but not for long, as the tweeter will burn out in short order.

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post #237 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Also, could it be that there is no 'adjustment setting' for this crossover, and just a single setting?
If Denon made proprietary speakers specifically designed for the digital crossover's parameters (and/or vice versa), it could be possible.

But this is beyond hypothetical. There is no digital crossover, there, so..........................

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post #238 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
No to both. If there is a crossover it must have a frequency adjustment. You can't have an arbitrary crossover frequency between the midbasses and tweeters, because depending on the tweeters used that might be anywhere between 1.5kHz and 5kHz. Set too high the system will sound bad. Set too low it will also sound bad, but not for long, as the tweeter will burn out in short order.
Ok this makes sense. Just a hypothetical. Like I said, I'm not a fan of passive biamping from what I said earlier, but then just figured maybe AVR makers have a way for it to sound marginally better for some. Or it could just be a placebo effect.
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post #239 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jdcrox View Post
"One amplifier is connected to the woofer section of a loudspeaker while the other is connected to the combined midrange and tweeter section. With this arrangement each amplifier operates over a limited frequency range, making its job easier."
What they are trying to say is that each amplifier only has to drive either the low frequency, or the high frequency range, even though it is fed the same full-range signal. And this might well have an effect, (although doubtful), since each amplifier might see different impedance, sensitivity, etc. But they are NOT saying that each amplifier is fed a different frequency range.
No bi, tri, quad-amping does have a effect. There is not "may have" to it. How do you think IMAX get's 15,000-20,000 watts from a dozen speakers? Or a Klipsch Atmos equipped theater pumps out 10,000 -12,000 watts?

The first and only fully horn-loaded THX®-Approved four-way cinema system the KPT-MCM-II-Q affords the ultimate in audio performance for larger exhibition spaces and in particular those grand auditoriums fitted with digital sound reproduction equipment.

Low frequency by a KPT-MWM dual 15-inch high efficiency horn-loaded woofer enclosure
Separate single 12-inch Tractrix® Horn-loaded mid-bass device
High frequencies by the Tractrix® Horn two-inch exit titanium compression driver
"Quad-amp" configuration

I just hung 8 of these today, as i build theaters for a living, thats what i do, and all 8 were quad amped and PASSIVE. Let me say that again, PASSIVE.

The high output extended high frequency horn module the KPT-Grand-HF-T provides extra sizzle in more majestic-sized theaters. The MCM Grand is ultra-efficient and in correct multi-channel configuration can yield absolutely even sound coverage to every seat in the house. This superb system is also available with passive crossovers(PASSIVE, again, PASSIVE) in a tri-amp configuration as the KPT-MCM-II-T and in a bi-amp configuration as the KPT-MCM-II-B.
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post #240 of 273 Old 07-22-2014, 09:03 PM
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CinemaAndy, why do you persist in pretending what someone says in in answer to something else?

No bi, tri, quad-amping does have a effect. There is not "may have" to it.

jdcrox was saying that receivers in bi-amp send the same signal to both terminals, and that has nothing to do with your reply.

Then you cut/paste text from a website again, namely Klipsch, and get facts wrong in the process. The KPT-MCM-II-T is a 4-way active speaker that only needs three amps instead of four because the top two HF drivers share a passive crossover. It still needs an active crossover prior to the 3 amps.

Remember, it's called "AV Science"!

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