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post #121 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Brandon, can you give a quick reason for this, or point me to an explanation?

Soundwaves are soundwaves...I always thought.

Less port flow and/or back wave info I imagine. I've noticed you can place a TL design up against a wall without smearing the bass, which cannot be said for bass reflex. Each design is different, so I imagine some will be better than others, but the TL cabinet seems to be more user friendly regarding room modes and boundaries (probably more of the latter). I'm not real familiar with the technically specifics behind the two designs, so I'm just speaking based on my own findings and others as well. I probably should have said room boundaries rather than modes, so I edited my post for you.

I found this post by Paul K. that might help explain things...??

"Unlike vented systems, a TL will have stuffing throughout part of its length, not just partial stuffing or lined walls, and this aids in limiting, if not preventing, internal reflections from coming back through the driver's cone, which helps out the quality of the midrange sound. Lastly, a TL uses the 1/4-wavelength resonant frequency of its length in a traditional TL, and of its length and taper if it's a tapered TL, to provide bass reinforcement. The 1/4-wave resonant frequency of the length of an ML-TL or ML-TQWT is used for part of the bass reinforcement along with the size of the mass-loading port. "

Here's another explanation on the two designs that might help, Curtis:

"As the name implies, a transmission line is a long tube that expends from the back of the loudspeaker. By tapering the line, there is NO possible way in which sound can reflect back and forth and therefore standing waves and resonances common to standard speaker enclosures are eliminated. By eliminating back-wave reflections, the driver is also protected from having the back-wave re-radiate through the diaphragm, causing distortion and diaphragm breakup. The purpose of the transmission line is to eliminate the phase cancellation that would occur if the driver was in free air. Because of the length of the line, there is not enough time for air to travel through the line and cancel the front-wave. The magic of the system is what happens to the back-wave. The length of the line creates a tuned chamber much like an open ended pipe from a pipe organ. This causes a phase shift depending on the frequency and the length of the line. Through proper design, this causes the wave from the end of the TL to reinforce the front-wave at the frequencies where the front-wave begins to decrease due to increased air resistance at lower frequencies. Also, the tuned aspect of the TL strongly effects the fundamental resonance of the loudspeaker. It causes a very heavy dampening effect, which also helps to eliminate the overshoot and undershoot of the massive bass driver diaphragm. But this dampening is unlike the air spring of a sealed box and the diaphragm does not have to fight for motion. As a result, the efficiency is better than bass-reflex enclosures, the accuracy is better than acoustic suspension, and the frequency response and linearity is better than all systems."

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post #122 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 01:12 PM
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If you still want to look at towers - The Absolute Tower from NHT is also,
a nice option - it is a sealed design.
http://www.nhthifi.com/Absolute-Towe...&category=3773

I still reccomend on-wall for some improvement - when you move, you will
have the option to use them as surrounds.

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post #123 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Less port flow and/or back wave info I imagine. I've noticed you can place a TL design up against a wall without smearing the bass, which cannot be said for bass reflex. Each design is different, so I imagine some will be better than others, but the TL cabinet seems to be more user friendly regarding room modes and boundaries (probably more of the latter). I'm not real familiar with the technically specifics behind the two designs, so I'm just speaking based on my own findings and others as well. I probably should have said room boundaries rather than modes, so I edited my post for you.

I found this post by Paul K. that might help explain things...??

"Unlike vented systems, a TL will have stuffing throughout part of its length, not just partial stuffing or lined walls, and this aids in limiting, if not preventing, internal reflections from coming back through the driver's cone, which helps out the quality of the midrange sound. Lastly, a TL uses the 1/4-wavelength resonant frequency of its length in a traditional TL, and of its length and taper if it's a tapered TL, to provide bass reinforcement. The 1/4-wave resonant frequency of the length of an ML-TL or ML-TQWT is used for part of the bass reinforcement along with the size of the mass-loading port. "

Here's another explanation on the two designs that might help, Curtis:

"As the name implies, a transmission line is a long tube that expends from the back of the loudspeaker. By tapering the line, there is NO possible way in which sound can reflect back and forth and therefore standing waves and resonances common to standard speaker enclosures are eliminated. By eliminating back-wave reflections, the driver is also protected from having the back-wave re-radiate through the diaphragm, causing distortion and diaphragm breakup. The purpose of the transmission line is to eliminate the phase cancellation that would occur if the driver was in free air. Because of the length of the line, there is not enough time for air to travel through the line and cancel the front-wave. The magic of the system is what happens to the back-wave. The length of the line creates a tuned chamber much like an open ended pipe from a pipe organ. This causes a phase shift depending on the frequency and the length of the line. Through proper design, this causes the wave from the end of the TL to reinforce the front-wave at the frequencies where the front-wave begins to decrease due to increased air resistance at lower frequencies. Also, the tuned aspect of the TL strongly effects the fundamental resonance of the loudspeaker. It causes a very heavy dampening effect, which also helps to eliminate the overshoot and undershoot of the massive bass driver diaphragm. But this dampening is unlike the air spring of a sealed box and the diaphragm does not have to fight for motion. As a result, the efficiency is better than bass-reflex enclosures, the accuracy is better than acoustic suspension, and the frequency response and linearity is better than all systems."

Thanks Brandon, much appreciated.

Yes, I could understand boundaries vs modes.

I wonder why subwoofer engineers/companies don't do TLs. I am sure there are some tradeoffs that are not mentioned above, as there is with everything. Such is audio.

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post #124 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Brandon, can you give a quick reason for this, or point me to an explanation?

Soundwaves are soundwaves...I always thought.

That would be my understanding as well. The information provided by Nuance strictly deals with what is happening inside the box. I don't see how that could have an effect on room modes. Same frequencies will be reinforced, and cancelled whether the speaker is sealed, bass reflex, horn loaded, or even a transmission line.

The OPs room will likely be a problem for any type of speaker, however room correction can be a wonderful thing, and might well be able to make the situation quite tolerable. Since speakers are to be auditioned, there is one sure way to find out.

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post #125 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I'd recommend sharing more pictures of the room (all sides) before giving up, just in case someone can figure out a better room placement strategy for you. That is, if you are willing to consider rearranging some furniture.

I agree. Perhaps the wall we cannot see (behind the camera) would be more suitable.
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post #126 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Thanks Brandon, much appreciated.

Yes, I could understand boundaries vs modes.

I wonder why subwoofer engineers/companies don't do TLs. I am sure there are some tradeoffs that are not mentioned above, as there is with everything. Such is audio.

I thought I remember a post by Paul from Triad mentioning that there is difference less of a difference between ported and sealed loud speakers when it comes to room interaction. If I remember correctly, he mentioned this because some were debating or, should I say recommending against rear ported and front ported for near boundary placement.

I may be way off on this, as I cannot find the post.
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post #127 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bbrio View Post


I agree. Perhaps the wall we cannot see (behind the camera) would be more suitable.

There is no doubt in my mind that wall is more suitable just won't have anywhere to put seating tables etc.. I'll show you later tonight probably.
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post #128 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 04:23 PM
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Give the B&W CT 7.4 LCRS a try IMO.
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post #129 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 04:25 PM
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I will when I can I'm not there now and am going to be quite busy the next few days. Sorry

No need to apologize. No rush. Just there's lots of good people reading your thread. Perhaps someone will come up with the ultimate solution

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post #130 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 04:30 PM
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I'm retarded I'll probably just do it in hopes of relocating.. IDK thinking time.. What about mirages with their omnipolar tech would that work ok or their towers still would be sacrificing a lot?? Like the omd15s with a rhythmik and the matching satellite and center setup.. I guess I was afraid of this to begin with.

I really like this option for you now that I am seeing the room. Vann's has the OMD15's back and forth between 399.99 and 499.99 so check prices. For your price point you could get the two 15's, 2 OMD5's for surround and a CM1 for your center. You would have about 5 bills left over for a killer sub. I just purchased this system myself and am loving it. I have had MANY different home theater speakers, these by far are the best I have owned and I now feel like my search is over (for now ;-) ) The OMD15's also sound great for 2 channel music. In my opinion they more than keep up with my Sierra 1 NrT bookshelves. While my room is not exactly like yours, I do have openings on either side of the front mains (the 15's) and the omnipolar design handles this with ease.
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post #131 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 05:33 PM
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just to be goofy here is a vid of my 8060-st's from deftech playing music....its a youtube vid but when people say deftech suck I have to respond...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU8vWTMasbI

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post #132 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

just to be goofy here is a vid of my 8060-st's from deftech playing music....its a youtube vid but when people say deftech suck I have to respond...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU8vWTMasbI

This is not meant to sound like a criticism of Def Techs, but what does that actually prove? What your speakers sound like recorded by a consumer mic (I'm guessing it wasn't studio quality), compressed by YouTube, and played back over my speakers? (lol)

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post #133 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

This is not meant to sound like a criticism of Def Techs, but what does that actually prove? What your speakers sound like recorded by a consumer mic (I'm guessing it wasn't studio quality), compressed by YouTube, and played back over my speakers? (lol)

lol...im just being goofy bud...

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post #134 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 07:00 PM
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I would buy used on Audiogon, you could get a $4000+ speaker there. And also look for speakers from companies in the high end and that have been around a while. You get good trickle down technology from their top line and they often make their own drivers. These companies have a lot of experience and more sophisticated design and manufacturing.

So Dynaudio, BW, Focal, KEF, Revel. Get the goods!
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post #135 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCATUCCI View Post


I really like this option for you now that I am seeing the room. Vann's has the OMD15's back and forth between 399.99 and 499.99 so check prices. For your price point you could get the two 15's, 2 OMD5's for surround and a CM1 for your center. You would have about 5 bills left over for a killer sub. I just purchased this system myself and am loving it. I have had MANY different home theater speakers, these by far are the best I have owned and I now feel like my search is over (for now ;-) ) The OMD15's also sound great for 2 channel music. In my opinion they more than keep up with my Sierra 1 NrT bookshelves. While my room is not exactly like yours, I do have openings on either side of the front mains (the 15's) and the omnipolar design handles this with ease.

Yeah well I was planning on spending like 5k in total. Sub was already budgeted at around 1k.
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post #136 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know if I posted the photos properly but I know I didn't figure out how to properly edit photo's on the new stupid mac yet lol.. Well I dont know if that is good enough if anything else is needed let me know. Don't pick on me too much for the crappy dvd rack couldn't find anything I like so I just sprayed an old rack.
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #137 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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1 more.. Any helpful input would be great may end up doing a whole room swap eventually make my bedroom the living room and move the bedroom to our spare bedroom but thats a lot of wiring and movement I won't be able/want to do for awhile so i'll be saving until then if thats what is best..
LL
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post #138 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaTaSTrOphiK View Post

I don't know if I posted the photos properly but I know I didn't figure out how to properly edit photo's on the new stupid mac yet lol.. Well I dont know if that is good enough if anything else is needed let me know. Don't pick on me too much for the crappy dvd rack couldn't find anything I like so I just sprayed an old rack.

If anything I would put your tv and speakers in front of the 3 windows....re-arrange the furniture and move the dvd rack infront of stairs.......atleast thats what I would do......and if you have 5 grand for speakers and such you can surly swing a good AV rack and a movie stand...

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post #139 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

If anything I would put your tv and speakers in front of the 3 windows....re-arrange the furniture and move the dvd rack infront of stairs.......atleast thats what I would do...

I agree. In my house, I have equivalent difficulties with room arrangement. Big double door sized openings in the middle of two walls and windows on the other two sides--in a 12x12 room. It was best for me to put the TV in front of one of the windows with speakers on either side. Then my couch sits forward opposite the TV enough that one can walk from the other room around the side of the couch with surrounds in the back corners, sort of like you would have to do. Sounds good in my house

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post #140 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post


If anything I would put your tv and speakers in front of the 3 windows....re-arrange the furniture and move the dvd rack infront of stairs.......atleast thats what I would do......and if you have 5 grand for speakers and such you can surly swing a good AV rack and a movie stand...

Couldn't find any good movie stands open for website recommendations. Lol I'm outside right now doing my dirty deed.. Smoking that is. I don't think that is possible because I would block the entrance to the dining room and kitchen yes missing that pic because the room is a bit messy right now. I'll check it out with the measuring tape though.
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post #141 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the quick input by the way guys much appreciated.
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post #142 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaTaSTrOphiK View Post

Couldn't find any good movie stands open for website recommendations. Lol I'm outside right now doing my dirty deed.. Smoking that is. I don't think that is possible because I would block the entrance to the dining room and kitchen yes missing that pic because the room is a bit messy right now. I'll check it out with the measuring tape though.

I smoke too...yes bad habit...but yea....If it were me I really would place tv and speakers in front of window and mess with placement of furniture to get it right....might take a while to find good placement but I would think it is possible....then you could do towers no problem...

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post #143 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I smoke too...yes bad habit...but yea....If it were me I really would place tv and speakers in front of window and mess with placement of furniture to get it right....might take a while to find good placement but I would think it is possible....then you could do towers no problem...

I like the sound of that more wholes in the floor for the speakers though lol wiring is all across the unfinished basements ceiling. No don't tell me to do the basement we won't get into that its a small weird one.
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post #144 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
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I like the sound of that more wholes in the floor for the speakers though lol wiring is all across the unfinished basements ceiling. No don't tell me to do the basement we won't get into that its a small weird one.

lol....but yea...work on placement first...then once you have it down then drill holes for speakers....will work out nicely I think...

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post #145 of 169 Old 01-30-2012, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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So now I am thinking the spare bedroom may be the best listening area. Its 13X9 with only one door in. Two windows on one wall. Small area but may work out much better. And the suggested layout is a no go especially with the stupid rocking reclining love seat we have. Well next to the master bedroom but then I would have to move my bedroom to the room you first walk into in my house which is a no go. Mind you my girlfriend is open to all suggestions. Sorry for rambling my thoughts I'll sleep on it and think it through more.
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post #146 of 169 Old 01-31-2012, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
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So now I am thinking the spare bedroom may be the best listening area. Its 13X9 with only one door in. Two windows on one wall. Small area but may work out much better.

That is what I would think about, and you would have better sound control.
Even good bookshelves and a center channel, with a sub would work there.

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post #147 of 169 Old 01-31-2012, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

That would be my understanding as well. The information provided by Nuance strictly deals with what is happening inside the box. I don't see how that could have an effect on room modes. Same frequencies will be reinforced, and cancelled whether the speaker is sealed, bass reflex, horn loaded, or even a transmission line.

As already mentioned in a previous post, I meant to say room boundaries, not room modes, and I've edited my post as to not cause further confusion. Some TL designs will interact differently with room boundaries when compared to a standard bass reflex design. Try it, you'll see. In this case I am speaking of a Martin King TL design; every one of the ML TL's I've heard could be placed closer to the back wall than a bass reflex, with the latter suffering from over-pronounced bass and boom/bloat. The TL's bass does increase, but it isn't boom and seems to stay linear, similar to if you just turned up the gain output on a subwoofer. Why this actually happens, I don't know, but I suspect it does actually relate to what happens internally in the cabinet.


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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I thought I remember a post by Paul from Triad mentioning that there is difference less of a difference between ported and sealed loud speakers when it comes to room interaction. If I remember correctly, he mentioned this because some were debating or, should I say recommending against rear ported and front ported for near boundary placement.

I may be way off on this, as I cannot find the post.

This is also true; sealed will interact differently as well. I don't quite understand where Pet Motel's statement is coming from. It's already been proven that these designs interact differently with the room. I'm not saying it's night and day better, just different, and up to the individual to decide which they like best.

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No need to apologize. No rush. Just there's lots of good people reading your thread. Perhaps someone will come up with the ultimate solution

Agreed. Take your time and be thorough.

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post #148 of 169 Old 01-31-2012, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by CaTaSTrOphiK View Post

So now I am thinking the spare bedroom may be the best listening area. Its 13X9 with only one door in. Two windows on one wall. Small area but may work out much better. And the suggested layout is a no go especially with the stupid rocking reclining love seat we have. Well next to the master bedroom but then I would have to move my bedroom to the room you first walk into in my house which is a no go. Mind you my girlfriend is open to all suggestions. Sorry for rambling my thoughts I'll sleep on it and think it through more.

Can we see pictures of the room? The bedroom is a personal space, so if you're not comfortable with that I understand. Perhaps just draw a mock-up or something? At 13x9 it might be better, but it could be worse. You'll have to heavily treat a space that size IMO, which is something 99% of us wouldn't be open to doing. Is there another room or basement you could use?

Moving the system against the windows as already recommended would probably give you the best sound, but you'd need a new TV stand, possibly a new DVD rack, etc, so it might not be the favorite option. The point here is this: If you've got that much coin to spend on a nice system but the room isn't suitable, it will be a complete waste. The room acoustics can effect the sound more than the speakers themselves, and even the greatest speakers in the world will sound bad in a room that has poor acoustics. We're honestly not trying to poop in the pool here; just being honest with you man. I really do hope things work out for you.

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post #149 of 169 Old 01-31-2012, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Nuance thanks for the insight. That layout with the tv by the window just isn't going to work I would either be sitting 5 feet away or blocking the entrance to the other rooms. The spare room is like I said 13x9 the doorway in is in what I would consider the back right corner. The two windows would be on what I would consider the front wall dead center. And the only other thing is a closet with a door in the back left corner on the back wall. Which could be closed off and added to the adjacent master bedroom closet. I am terrible at drawing.

P.S. I am open to anything if it is a dedicated room treatments ugliness could care less if I am blown away when watching a movie in the dark. And I can actually stand listening to music for extended periods.
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post #150 of 169 Old 01-31-2012, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

As already mentioned in a previous post, I meant to say room boundaries, not room modes, and I've edited my post as to not cause further confusion. Some TL designs will interact differently with room boundaries when compared to a standard bass reflex design. Try it, you'll see. In this case I am speaking of a Martin King TL design; every one of the ML TL's I've heard could be placed closer to the back wall than a bass reflex, with the latter suffering from over-pronounced bass and boom/bloat. The TL's bass does increase, but it isn't boom and seems to stay linear, similar to if you just turned up the gain output on a subwoofer. Why this actually happens, I don't know, but I suspect it does actually relate to what happens internally in the cabinet.




This is also true; sealed will interact differently as well. I don't quite understand where Pet Motel's statement is coming from. It's already been proven that these designs interact differently with the room. I'm not saying it's night and day better, just different, and up to the individual to decide which they like best.

I think the confusion comes from the use of "mode" vs "boundary", which you corrected in your post, but I didn't in mine since I quoted you.

A rear ported speaker would obviously get more boundary reinforcement if the port is close to the wall. I can only comment on the Songtower, since that is the only TL design that I can remember hearing, and it the bass definitely has a different flavor to what I have heard from ported/sealed speakers/subs.

That said, place any speaker closer to the back wall and you lose depth of the soundstage.

CaTaSTrOphiK....you are getting good advice here, and hopefully you will be able to put it to good use.

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