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Speakers > Help a newbie out! Please!
jjl4004's Avatar jjl4004 09:17 AM 03-06-2012
I think you're getting confused. The only correct setting for LFE is 120hz. It is a separate audio channel for only Low Frequency Effectsbass that is sent only to a subwoofer and not to the other speakers. Set the LFE at 120hz and forget about it.

I think for you, for now, should set all of your speakers to LARGE since you don't have a sub.

Once you get a sub, run Audyssey and then see what the settings are. I would then suggest you set all of your speakers to SMALL (if they are not already set there) and cross them all at 80hz and see how that sounds. Try crossing the 70s at 60hz and then see how that sounds. Also, you should experiment with plugging the ports on your RC-70s and/or LCR if you think the bass is overwhelming or boomy. One rule though: after Audyssey sets the crossover points, you should not adjust the crossover lower than what Audyssey has set it at (example: if Audyssey crosses the LCR at 80hz, don't cross it at 60hz).

Regarding speaker frequency rangesjust because a speaker can play down to 48hz doesn't mean it does it well. Don't feel bad about crossing the LCR or RC-10s at 80hz...there's nothing wrong with that. When you have a sub, let that handle the lower frequencies, which is what is designed to do.

FYI - I found, in my acoustically challenged basement, that my system sounds best with the RC-70s and LCR both crossed at 80hz with the ports plugged on all three. The sub handles most of the bass. And I am a bass lover. I've tried crossing the 70s at 60hz but didn't see much of a change in sound, so I put them back to 80hz.

jjl4004's Avatar jjl4004 09:25 AM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by p-nation View Post

Yes, I know the LFE is for the sub. I know what the .1 is. Thank you anyway. I just want to understand why I'm setting it at 120hz. I'm an engineer, I like to understand things instead of blindly following orders.

And yes - I understand how the crossover works. Again, I just want to know why I'm opting for 60hz when the speaker is rated to go down towards 48hz. Follow my logic?

I guess I'll experiment once I get the subwoofer and post my findings here.

If you have not already, I'd suggest reading up on these two links:

http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#audyssey

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

They do a great job of explaining things and should answer all/most of your questions.
p-nation's Avatar p-nation 09:32 AM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjl4004 View Post

I think you're getting confused. The only correct setting for LFE is 120hz. It is a separate audio channel for only Low Frequency Effectsbass that is sent only to a subwoofer and not to the other speakers. Set the LFE at 120hz and forget about it.

I think for you, for now, should set all of your speakers to LARGE since you don't have a sub.

Once you get a sub, run Audyssey and then see what the settings are. I would then suggest you set all of your speakers to SMALL (if they are not already set there) and cross them all at 80hz and see how that sounds. Try crossing the 70s at 60hz and then see how that sounds. Also, you should experiment with plugging the ports on your RC-70s and/or LCR if you think the bass is overwhelming or boomy. One rule though: after Audyssey sets the crossover points, you should not adjust the crossover lower than what Audyssey has set it at (example: if Audyssey crosses the LCR at 80hz, don't cross it at 60hz).

Regarding speaker frequency rangesjust because a speaker can play down to 48hz doesn't mean it does it well. Don't feel bad about crossing the LCR or RC-10s at 80hz...there's nothing wrong with that. When you have a sub, let that handle the lower frequencies, which is what is designed to do.

FYI - I found, in my acoustically challenged basement, that my system sounds best with the RC-70s and LCR both crossed at 80hz with the ports plugged on all three. The sub handles most of the bass. And I am a bass lover. I've tried crossing the 70s at 60hz but didn't see much of a change in sound, so I put them back to 80hz.

Sounds good!

Strange you felt the need to plug the ports. I can't get enough bass.

I'll upload photos of my set-up when I get home later. I appreciate the help and lengthy post explaining these things. I figured that the speakers bass extension wouldn't be that good low, it's good to have it confirmed.

BTW - What kind of sub are you using with those RC-70s and LCR?
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 09:47 AM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by p-nation View Post

Yes, I know the LFE is for the sub. I know what the .1 is. Thank you anyway. I just want to understand why I'm setting it at 120hz. I'm an engineer, I like to understand things instead of blindly following orders.

Because the subwoofer plays the LFE channel. If you set LFE to 60hz, you'll lose the LFE channel content from 60 to 120hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by p-nation View Post

And yes - I understand how the crossover works. Again, I just want to know why I'm opting for 60hz when the speaker is rated to go down towards 48hz. Follow my logic?

Because you can't set it to 48hz. Your choices on the Denon are 40, 60, and 80. While there are settings above that, you probably don't want to use them because of bass localization. You really have to see which works best for you.

And then, in addition to the general sound quality which the sub vs. the speakers may produce in ideal circumstances, which to choose is very much dependent on room acoustics and your speaker placement. The sub or the speakers could be doing a better job in a certain frequency range. Room acoustics is a giant factor in bass response.
jjl4004's Avatar jjl4004 09:53 AM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by p-nation View Post

Sounds good!

Strange you felt the need to plug the ports. I can't get enough bass.

I'll upload photos of my set-up when I get home later. I appreciate the help and lengthy post explaining these things. I figured that the speakers bass extension wouldn't be that good low, it's good to have it confirmed.

BTW - What kind of sub are you using with those RC-70s and LCR?

I plug the ports becuase the space I have them in gets really boomy when using both the sub and unplugged RC-70s. However, at times, I listen to music 2.0 and unplug the ports...they sound great that way.

I'm currently using an Outlaw LFM-2 and it sounds great. I also have a BIC PL-200 that I'm currently not using but will eventually if we can sell our house put the speakers, etc. into a larger, more acousticlly-friendly environment. Even though it's just a little guy, the LFM-2 cranks and fills the room with great, quality bass.
jjl4004's Avatar jjl4004 09:59 AM 03-06-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Room acoustics is a giant factor in bass response.

x2! Plugging the ports on my 70s works best in the current, crappy room they are currently in. I realize I'm not utilizing the 70s to their full potential this way, but I feel I'm doing the best I can for the room they are in. My next room will be better and have treatments, so I'm anticipating that I won't be plugging the ports at that time. Every room is different and experimenting with what works best for you is really the best solution.
p-nation's Avatar p-nation 07:31 AM 04-04-2012
Sorry to revive an old(ish) thread... Just figure I'd upload those photos a few of you asked to see. The system sounds amazing. I'm ordering a PC12-NSD this weekend and am pretty much all done.... except I was thinking about adding rear surrounds. My couch is up against the wall, so would a CR-10 be acceptable considering the grade of my other speakers? You can see the diagram earlier in the thread to know what I'm talking about... anyway, here goes!



Also, thank you to everyone who helped me pick out this great system.
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 07:51 AM 04-04-2012
Wow. Looks great. I'm sure it sounds great, too

With HT, the SVS sub will take it to a whole new level from here. Be sure to get some of these 4 to 5 star movies to test it out: The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts.

Also look at the Veritas Surrounds. More expensive, but since the Veritas line is considered a little bit better than the RC line, seems a better choice to me (I'm going to buy some). We've been talking about them recently in the Energy Owners Thread (look over the last week). Not sure about placement. I couldn't find your diagram (sorry, only looked for a minute).
jjl4004's Avatar jjl4004 08:31 AM 04-04-2012
Looks good! Thanks for posting an update. It's always good to see the end result and it's nice to hear your happy with the speakers.

Cel is right, that sub is going to really round out your set up and add a whole new element to watching movies.
p-nation's Avatar p-nation 08:47 AM 04-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Wow. Looks great. I'm sure it sounds great, too

With HT, the SVS sub will take it to a whole new level from here. Be sure to get some of these 4 to 5 star movies to test it out: The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts.

Also look at the Veritas Surrounds. More expensive, but since the Veritas line is considered a little bit better than the RC line, seems a better choice to me (I'm going to buy some). We've been talking about them recently in the Energy Owners Thread (look over the last week). Not sure about placement. I couldn't find your diagram (sorry, only looked for a minute).


Thanks! Yeah, the Veritas surrounds seem nice. Thing is, my couch is pressed against the wall, so I have my surrounds on end tables facing the main listening position (where the photo was taken), so the Veritas line would stick out a bit from the walls. But thanks for the encouragement! I'll have to grab some of those movies. It sounds good with the RC-70's bass as it is, can't imagine what the sub will do for the sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjl4004 View Post

Looks good! Thanks for posting an update. It's always good to see the end result and it's nice to hear your happy with the speakers.

Cel is right, that sub is going to really round out your set up and add a whole new element to watching movies.


Thanks man! I'm very happy with them! Can't wait to get that sub and pop a few good Blu Rays in.
p-nation's Avatar p-nation 08:00 AM 04-19-2012
Hey Everyone - Looking for some final advice regarding my sub setup.

I got the SVS PC12-NSD yesterday and man, it's huge. I was expecting this monster bass performance. Instead, it sounds a lot like my old Logitech. I can't really figure out what's going wrong here. It's in a terrible spot, yes. But I figured the sheer volume itself could compensate for that.

It's located to the left of the front left speaker, kind of life in the diagram below, only swapped with the left RC-70.


I setup everything correctly. Gain is at 1/3, crossover disabled, phase 0.

Ran Audessey, and it rated the sub at -.5. Ok, perfect I thought.

I ran a few bass tests off of YouTube and it sounded brutally awesome. The problem is with movies and regular cable TV. Most of the bass feels like it's just rattling the floor. If I pick my feet up off the ground, I feel like there's significantly less bass.

My room is 21x17x9. I know it shouldn't have THAT hard of a time filling that space. Hell, my old Logitech did it fine. Surely an 800 dollar sub could too?

Anyway, I followed the advice of the many helpful people contributing to this thread and others:

LPF for LFE: 120hz
RC-70s: 60hz
RC-10s: 80hz
RC-LCR: 80hz

If I turn the bass level up manually to +2.5 dB (so it's 3+dB extra), it provides a nice punch I would have expected. I watched Casino Royale last night and felt the +3dB was required. But, is it necessary?

Barely any bass comes out for music. I'm not sure how to use 2.1 on this receiver...I've tried everything. I ran some music in multi channel stereo and it sounded alright, but certainly not what I was expecting for 800 bucks. Anyone have any advice?

Edit: Additional thought: Should I just pump the gain until my hearts content? I mean...the amp AND sub are covered for 5 years... Just a thought.
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 08:41 AM 04-19-2012
A lot of people run their sub 2 or 3db hot. That's not unusual.

Have you given the sub some time to break in?
p-nation's Avatar p-nation 08:52 AM 04-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

A lot of people run their sub 2 or 3db hot. That's not unusual.

Have you given the sub some time to break in?

No, just got it yesterday. I wasn't sure break-in was really a thing with subs. How long for break-in to occur?
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 03:43 PM 04-19-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by p-nation View Post

No, just got it yesterday. I wasn't sure break-in was really a thing with subs. How long for break-in to occur?

I don't know. Some people doubt there's any benefit to speaker break-in, and yet I swear my RC-LCRs and RC-50s improved (particularly the RC-LCR), and I've heard others say the same thing about their subs.

Meanwhile, I see you got Ed and the other SVS owners helping you in the SVS thread. I don't think you need any help from over here. I would bet they are right. Most likely the main issue you are having is that location. Common knowledge that corner placement gives the best results for emphasizing the bass; HSU even recommends it in the manual for some of their subs. See this advice at Audioholics.
Splicer010's Avatar Splicer010 04:59 PM 04-19-2012
Absolutely, speakers DO loosen up to a point. Subs are speakers too and they DO have a break-in period. As a GENERAL RULE of thumb, gotta give speakers approx 50 hours of break-in before critical listening can be properly done.

Again, this is GENERALLY TRUE of ALL speakers.
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