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post #31 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bitterwaste View Post

Wow I didn't know about Denver audio design so I might have to go check them out, but man there 31 miles from my house!!! They have Thiel and I so wanted to hear their products too so I might have to take a road trip down there.

As for the Totem speakers I look everyday on Audiogon in hopes to find a pair I could afford but as of right now they are going for nearly 3k a pair and its outside of my price range otherwise I would have already had a totem 5.1 setup with Hawks, Rainmakers, and a SVS sub. They do however have the sttaf loud speakers in my price range and I just don't know how they would compare to the hawks so I'm a bit hesitant to buy them without doing an audition.

As far as the Salks go when they get into town you are more than welcome to do an audition to hear them for yourself, and that is one set of speakers I'm willing to chance it on! It only seems like Dynaudio, SVS, and Salk have praise everywhere you go on the internet so here goes nothing. But even if this fails on some amazing level I still have a good fall back of Kef R300's. As for the R500 I haven't had a chance to hear them because no one seems to have them right now. 

So, 31 miles from your house. I guess you are up north. I live on the south side of town which is why I have not yet made it to Hear No Evil. But I will, eventually.

Thanks for the offer to listen to the Salks. That is awesome and generous. I might just have to take you up on it.

I would offer to bring something of my own to compare, but right now I am running on wall LCR setup. I do have old Infinity speakers I purchased in 1992, but they are not in the same class as the stuff you are looking at.

Are you getting a whole 5.1 setup? If so, what sub are you planning on?

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post #32 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The RAAL has a different cutout size in the baffle, so you cannot "upgrade" to one down the road unfortunately.

aweswome thanks Nuance! I think I should be fine for right now with the OW 4 tweeters, now the wait to get them! so excited!

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post #33 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

So, 31 miles from your house. I guess you are up north. I live on the south side of town which is why I have not yet made it to Hear No Evil. But I will, eventually.

Thanks for the offer to listen to the Salks. That is awesome and generous. I might just have to take you up on it.

I would offer to bring something of my own to compare, but right now I am running on wall LCR setup. I do have old Infinity speakers I purchased in 1992, but they are not in the same class as the stuff you are looking at.

Are you getting a whole 5.1 setup? If so, what sub are you planning on?

Yep you called it I live in the Thornton area near Colorado Blvd and 104th so its a trip down there and one I'd like to take.

as for the Salk's yes I'll be making a 5.1 home theater, but some of that is going to have to wait longer because I spent more then I was expecting to on the two songtowers. As for an Audition Jim told me he had a lot going on so it was going to take him some time to make then, when I get them in I'll PM you and let you know so you can listen if you want to down the road. And no need to bring any thing up except stuff you want to listen too, I will see if Hear no Evil can let me use the R300's so you can compare to another great speaker.

Oh P.S I would love to get an SVS sub for this system, just not sure what one yet, I have a medium size area to fill so any suggestions?

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post #34 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bitterwaste View Post


Oh P.S I would love to get an SVS sub for this system, just not sure what one yet, I have a medium size area to fill so any suggestions?

SVS makes awesome subwoofers. What is you budget, do you prefer sealed or ported and what are the exact dimensions of your room (LxWxH)?

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post #35 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 04:25 PM
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The info Nuance asked for will definitely help guide you towards the right sub. I have a d/c model, the PB10-NSD. I would be happy to bring that with me if I do go by your place. It is not so huge like some of its big brothers, easy enough to bring in my SUV. That way you could get a feel for the size of a ported sub and see how it sounds integrated with your Songtowers.

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post #36 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The RAAL has a different cutout size in the baffle, so you cannot "upgrade" to one down the road unfortunately.

Actually, I believe Jim has said they could do this, but it would be very expensive to do (cost of RAAL tweeters plus the needed cabinet work) and not worth it in his opinion.

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post #37 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bitterwaste View Post

aweswome thanks Nuance! I think I should be fine for right now with the OW 4 tweeters, now the wait to get them! so excited!

IMO, the differences between the RAAL and the dome are only readily apparent when comparing them side by side. I think you will be happy with the dome's performance.

Enjoy!

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post #38 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 06:40 PM
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Hi all, so this may be the wrong place to discuss but looking at the Salk Soundtowers has me thinking about floor standing speakers. Looking at them there I quite a bit of cabinet below the drivers, you see this on many floor standing speakers. What is the rationale behind this. Looking at bookshelf speakers they obviously do not have this extra cabinet space. Also, why is it that on many speakers larger than bookshelf speakers that there seems to be such a large focus on the woofers -- you obviously have a single tweeter and then usually a single mid range sized speaker and then one or even more larger woofers. Examples would be the Dali 400s, B&W 802Ds. In the case of the Soundtowers there appears to be a single tweeter with two similar drivers (one above the tweeter and one below). Right now I'm rocking the b&w 685s and have gotten used to the simplicity of a smaller cabinet and just a single tweeter and woofer.
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post #39 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 07:23 PM
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Hi all, so this may be the wrong place to discuss but looking at the Salk Soundtowers has me thinking about floor standing speakers. Looking at them there I quite a bit of cabinet below the drivers, you see this on many floor standing speakers. What is the rationale behind this. Looking at bookshelf speakers they obviously do not have this extra cabinet space. Also, why is it that on many speakers larger than bookshelf speakers that there seems to be such a large focus on the woofers -- you obviously have a single tweeter and then usually a single mid range sized speaker and then one or even more larger woofers. Examples would be the Dali 400s, B&W 802Ds. In the case of the Soundtowers there appears to be a single tweeter with two similar drivers (one above the tweeter and one below). Right now I'm rocking the b&w 685s and have gotten used to the simplicity of a smaller cabinet and just a single tweeter and woofer.

I'm not sure you understand the relationship between cabinet volume and bass response. The Songtower is a transmission line design, which requires a tall cabinet to provide a long enough line to optimize bass response quality and quantity. Using two woofers in parallel cuts the cone travel necessary for a given dB output in half, and therefore reduces harmonic distortion. There's no benefit to doublng up on tweeters, which are already much more sensitive than the woofers they're used with. All dual tweeters would do is introduce severe comb filtering due to interference effects between the drivers at the short wave lengths that are involved at higher frequencies. There really is science behind the configuration of floor-standers vs. bookshelves. It's not a random marketing gimmick.
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post #40 of 75 Old 02-18-2012, 10:32 PM
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I'm not sure you understand the relationship between cabinet volume and bass response. The Songtower is a transmission line design, which requires a tall cabinet to provide a long enough line to optimize bass response quality and quantity. Using two woofers in parallel cuts the cone travel necessary for a given dB output in half, and therefore reduces harmonic distortion. There's no benefit to doublng up on tweeters, which are already much more sensitive than the woofers they're used with. All dual tweeters would do is introduce severe comb filtering due to interference effects between the drivers at the short wave lengths that are involved at higher frequencies. There really is science behind the configuration of floor-standers vs. bookshelves. It's not a random marketing gimmick.

Dennis, thanks for the response and info. I'm not suggesting that it is marketing gimmickry. I guess right now on my audio journey I'm at that point where the physics behind it is intriguing me. Any suggestions on good resources to read up on speaker physics/theory? It would be neat to find reviews that put speakers head to head less on the sound impression and more on the merits of good speaker design. That would be an interesting way to learn more about speaker design and physics by saying these speakers are theoretically better than those because of x.

You're point on two woofers working together is interesting. Does that mean that the speaker with two woofers might sound as though it is producing the sounds more effortlessly?

Thanks
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post #41 of 75 Old 02-19-2012, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

SVS makes awesome subwoofers. What is you budget, do you prefer sealed or ported and what are the exact dimensions of your room (LxWxH)?

You know I'm not picky on what type of sub I get, I do how ever like the cylinder subs they sell but open to any at this point. But I'd say my price range is 1200 dollars for a sub. Let me know what you think

And that would be great NewHTbuyer, that way I can hear SVS with my own ears and you can hear Salks with SVS as well! I just can't wait and get more excited by the day!

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post #42 of 75 Old 02-19-2012, 04:54 AM
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You know I'm not picky on what type of sub I get, I do how ever like the cylinder subs they sell but open to any at this point. But I'd say my price range is 1200 dollars for a sub. Let me know what you think

And that would be great NewHTbuyer, that way I can hear SVS with my own ears and you can hear Salks with SVS as well! I just can't wait and get more excited by the day!

The cylinder subs are cool, but I think your money would be better spent on the SB13 plus or the PB13 Ultra. The ultra has a bit more flexibility in that you can tune it by blocking or not blocking some of the ports.

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post #43 of 75 Old 02-19-2012, 09:05 AM
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The cylinder subs are cool, but I think your money would be better spent on the SB13 plus or the PB13 Ultra. The ultra has a bit more flexibility in that you can tune it by blocking or not blocking some of the ports.

Actually, the PC12-plus and PC13-ultra both offer variable tuning like the PB13. As far as sealed vs ported, or box vs. cylinder, we still don't know room size, space constraints, or listening preferences yet.

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Actually, the PC12-plus and PC13-ultra both offer variable tuning like the PB13. As far as sealed vs ported, or box vs. cylinder, we still don't know room size, space constraints, or listening preferences yet.

Ya that's true. I still think the PC-13 Ultra is the best of the bunch though. And it's at the price he stated. As long as a sub is designed well it doesn't matter if it's sealed or ported. It'll sound good. That's why I like the 13 Ultra so much because of the extra flexibility it has. And I just like the looks better than the cylinder. Personal preference.

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post #45 of 75 Old 02-20-2012, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bitterwaste View Post

You know I'm not picky on what type of sub I get, I do how ever like the cylinder subs they sell but open to any at this point. But I'd say my price range is 1200 dollars for a sub. Let me know what you think

And that would be great NewHTbuyer, that way I can hear SVS with my own ears and you can hear Salks with SVS as well! I just can't wait and get more excited by the day!

Gotcha. We still need you to provide room dimensions before we can confidently recommend something. Also, do you prefer sealed or ported?

The Rythmik F15HP, SVS SB13-Plus, SVS PB12-Plus and Rythmik FV15HP are all awesome subwoofers within your price range. It'll all depend on the room size and what your intentions are, though (do you want to pressurize the entire room, will you listen loud, etc).

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post #46 of 75 Old 02-20-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Gotcha. We still need you to provide room dimensions before we can confidently recommend something. Also, do you prefer sealed or ported?

The Rythmik F15HP, SVS SB13-Plus, SVS PB12-Plus and Rythmik FV15HP are all awesome subwoofers within your price range. It'll all depend on the room size and what your intentions are, though (do you want to pressurize the entire room, will you listen loud, etc).

OK cool and thanks everyone, I will give you some room dimensions later on tonight to give you an idea of how big it is but its a very odd shape room that is for sure. I will have to go and look at the Rythmik as well due to the fact I don't know much about that company or the subs. "but its a cool sounding name. )

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post #47 of 75 Old 02-20-2012, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright here you go, not sure what else you need but let me know. Ok for the layout I posted a picture of my floor plan using paint. lol it was the only thing I had to show you had odd this layout is but its very open and not just a room. As for the sub I'm going to be using it way more for games and movies but enjoy music and will be using it for that about 20% to 30% of the time. now it doesn't have to fill the full room but where the entertainment area is its small in Comparison to the rest of the room.

I hope this helps
LL

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post #48 of 75 Old 02-21-2012, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Actually, I believe Jim has said they could do this, but it would be very expensive to do (cost of RAAL tweeters plus the needed cabinet work) and not worth it in his opinion.

Not sure if Jim was implying for the raal.
The faceplate of the raal is longer then the hiquphon tweeter so that spacing between woofer are closer on the dome then the raal tweeter in theory, unless Jim ones has custom faceplate, then it might be feasible.

It would be nice if an upgrade is doable, it will need some attention and surface mount would make thing alot more easy.
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post #49 of 75 Old 02-21-2012, 08:16 AM
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Alright here you go, not sure what else you need but let me know. Ok for the layout I posted a picture of my floor plan using paint. lol it was the only thing I had to show you had odd this layout is but its very open and not just a room. As for the sub I'm going to be using it way more for games and movies but enjoy music and will be using it for that about 20% to 30% of the time. now it doesn't have to fill the full room but where the entertainment area is its small in Comparison to the rest of the room.

I hope this helps

Thanks for the diagram, though it still doesn't give us the full dimensions of the room (we need the LxWxH dimensions). With that said, for a $1200ish price range I recommend the SVS PB12-PLUS (a little over budget), the Rythmik FV15HP or the HSU VTF-15H. The HSU will stay within your price range even with shipping factored in, while the other two will not. However, the other two offer higher output and will fill a large space better. You can see the CEA-2010 measurements below for comparison.


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post #50 of 75 Old 02-21-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Thanks for the diagram, though it still doesn't give us the full dimensions of the room (we need the LxWxH dimensions). With that said, for a $1200ish price range I recommend the SVS PB12-PLUS (a little over budget), the Rythmik FV15HP or the HSU VTF-15H. The HSU will stay within your price range even with shipping factored in, while the other two will not. However, the other two offer higher output and will fill a large space better. You can see the CEA-2010 measurements below for comparison.


Agree with what Nuance posted. My only addition would be that the PC (cylinder) version, the PC12-plus, is $100 cheaper at $1299 shipped than the PB version, thus closer to your budget. It will outperform the HSU VTF15H in the ultra low bass frequencies. Take a look at the last two rows of the table Nuance posted to see the difference.

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post #51 of 75 Old 02-21-2012, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Thanks for the diagram, though it still doesn't give us the full dimensions of the room (we need the LxWxH dimensions). With that said, for a $1200ish price range I recommend the SVS PB12-PLUS (a little over budget), the Rythmik FV15HP or the HSU VTF-15H. The HSU will stay within your price range even with shipping factored in, while the other two will not. However, the other two offer higher output and will fill a large space better. You can see the CEA-2010 measurements below for comparison.


Alright for the est. because its a big room would be 26'x17'x9' would be close to how big the room truly is. I will take a look at the HSU sub but think I want to push a bit harder for a SVS or the Rythmik sub. What about getting 2 PB12-NSD? can the Marantz SR6006 handle 2 subs? or I had my eye on the SB13-PLUS which goes for 1199.00 new would that be an ok option and just pay a bit more for shipping?

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post #52 of 75 Old 02-21-2012, 07:56 PM
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^ That's almost 4000 cu. ft., so if I was you I'd go with the SVS PB12-Plus, Rythmik FV15HP or dual SVS PB12-NSD's. I think those three options would sound great in your room. The SB13 is sealed, so I don't know if it will have enough oomph to pressurize, but you could contact SVS and see what they say.

It looks like the Marantz SR6006 only has one subwoofer input, so you'd need to use a Y-cable (splitter).

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post #53 of 75 Old 02-22-2012, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
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awesome! Thank you Nuance and NewHTbuyer for all the help, I think right now I will get the two SVS PB12-NSD and call it good and it will help the poor wallet out and will be able to buy them one by one! When I get the salks I will post them in the Salk thread and as things get built add more pictures of them as well as help others out in other forms due to how good of an experiences this has been! Thanks again!!!!

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Salk Songtowers, Emotiva XPA-2, ERC-1.  

This is a horrible hobby!!  My wallet hates me, takes up to much space, neighbors want me to move, but man my house sounds amazing!  

 

 
 

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post #54 of 75 Old 02-22-2012, 06:37 AM
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Very cool, bitterwaste. I look forward to how things play out.

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post #55 of 75 Old 02-22-2012, 06:28 PM
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awesome! Thank you Nuance and NewHTbuyer for all the help, I think right now I will get the two SVS PB12-NSD and call it good and it will help the poor wallet out and will be able to buy them one by one! When I get the salks I will post them in the Salk thread and as things get built add more pictures of them as well as help others out in other forms due to how good of an experiences this has been! Thanks again!!!!

Awesome! That system will sound great.

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post #56 of 75 Old 02-23-2012, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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One last quick side note, I've been working with Jim on finishes and he sent me this about Tweeters.

I am checking on the availability of the OW4. For a while, it was not available in the US. It may be now.

The OW4 measures slightly flatter than the OW2 and it does have a silver cone rather than black. But I can't say as you can hear a difference (a 1/8 db peak or dip here or there are not all that audible). So if I am asked, I always point out that the differences are measurable but not necessarily audible. So I can't, in good faith, recommend spending the extra $100 on the OW4.

Also in the future if I wanted to do a RAAL upgrade is that possible? - my question

Jim answer
Unfortunately no. The woofer spacing is different and the RAAL would not fit between the woofers. Second, the cutout and rabbit would require re-routing the cabinet. And, lastly, the crossover would have to be swapped out as well. The RAAL upgrade really amounts to a totally different speaker.

just a quick FYI to a question early on in this thread.

EMP tek 5.1 theater setup, Marantz SR6006, Oppo BDP-95
Salk Songtowers, Emotiva XPA-2, ERC-1.  

This is a horrible hobby!!  My wallet hates me, takes up to much space, neighbors want me to move, but man my house sounds amazing!  

 

 
 

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post #57 of 75 Old 02-23-2012, 11:04 PM
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Whoops... While I've heard the Totem's I never wrote about them (there's actually a lot I didn't end up writing about in the thread). That was my buddy Greg (funkmonkey), and his thread can be found here and is also linked in my signature called "A great read."

No, but you did review the Salk SongTower, which almost had me in tears - one of the finest reviews I've read, further convincing me that these are likely my next speakers, and the only brand I would purchase without auditioning. Between it and other comments in avsforum they're at the top of a very short list of possibilities for my HT upgrade. For now I have a bit of an audition addiction though, so I'm draggin' it out.

I will later post and research more whether the RT upgrade is warranted, it sounds intriguing but for my large space I might be more concerned with soundstage issues than you were, my time will be split between 70% movies/30% music. The justification kicks in when I think how sweet that added transparency might bring, because this is just what I'm looking for.

Thank you sir, and to Mrs. Nuance, for a wonderful read.

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post #58 of 75 Old 02-24-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bitterwaste View Post

One last quick side note, I've been working with Jim on finishes and he sent me this about Tweeters.

I am checking on the availability of the OW4. For a while, it was not available in the US. It may be now.

The OW4 measures slightly flatter than the OW2 and it does have a silver cone rather than black. But I can't say as you can hear a difference (a 1/8 db peak or dip here or there are not all that audible). So if I am asked, I always point out that the differences are measurable but not necessarily audible. So I can't, in good faith, recommend spending the extra $100 on the OW4.

Also in the future if I wanted to do a RAAL upgrade is that possible? - my question

Jim answer
Unfortunately no. The woofer spacing is different and the RAAL would not fit between the woofers. Second, the cutout and rabbit would require re-routing the cabinet. And, lastly, the crossover would have to be swapped out as well. The RAAL upgrade really amounts to a totally different speaker.

just a quick FYI to a question early on in this thread.

Sorry to hear about the tweeter's limited availability, although I do agree with Jim that you likely won't hear the difference. You will, however, hear the difference with the RAAL ribbon, so if you're considering it (as it seems you are) I highly recommend it. I have the LCY, and even that is quite a bit better than the dome IMO (except the vertical dispersion, which is moot if you listen sitting down). So if you can get the RAAL... I've even considered selling my ST's simply to fund a RAAL pair, but I'm going to let the wife hear the difference at our SE WI GTG in April first; she'll make the final call on that one.

I can't wait to see your pair!
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No, but you did review the Salk SongTower, which almost had me in tears - one of the finest reviews I've read, further convincing me that these are likely my next speakers, and the only brand I would purchase without auditioning. Between it and other comments in avsforum they're at the top of a very short list of possibilities for my HT upgrade. For now I have a bit of an audition addiction though, so I'm draggin' it out.

I will later post and research more whether the RT upgrade is warranted, it sounds intriguing but for my large space I might be more concerned with soundstage issues than you were, my time will be split between 70% movies/30% music. The justification kicks in when I think how sweet that added transparency might bring, because this is just what I'm looking for.

Thank you sir, and to Mrs. Nuance, for a wonderful read.

Wow, thank you for the kind words!

The RT SongTowers have no sound stage issues, for what it's worth. The ribbon doesn't effect that in a negative way; only vertical dispersion is limited, which can be a blessing or a curse depending on how you listen. If you listen to tunes while walking around the room a lot (chores, exercise, etc.), the domes might be more appropriate. But if you'll always be sitting and crave transparency, the ribbons are the way to go. The "limited" vertical dispersion can also help do away with some of the floor/ceiling bounce reflections, which might be more prominent with the dome tweeter. Less unwanted reflection is a good thing.

I hope that helps and I look forward to your decision.

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post #59 of 75 Old 02-24-2012, 11:39 AM
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Thank you for the clarification. Yes, this is a multi-purpose room with a bar off to one side, exercise space in a corner, the floor for my favorite exercise - playing with my dogs. I will have to weigh the tradeoffs carefully.

My space will likely be more lively from the limited exposed drywall, as my ceiling is wood panel and floor thick carpet, so this is not a concern.

In the coming months I will begin to put all this together, I'm waiting for 2012 displays to be released. I will create a detailed post with room dimensions and layout, and I hope that you may be able to weigh in - at this point I believe the room will contain the SongTower and others in the series.

By the way, while I read through your perfect speaker journey as if it was weekly episodes of "24" I did not complete the similar journey for amp - what did you decide? Several years ago I owned an Aragon 4004 which would probably have paired nicely with the SongTowers, but I will eventually pair them with a 3-channel amp for HT. Yet another fun journey for myself, I suspect.

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post #60 of 75 Old 02-24-2012, 01:06 PM
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Thank you for the clarification. Yes, this is a multi-purpose room with a bar off to one side, exercise space in a corner, the floor for my favorite exercise - playing with my dogs. I will have to weigh the tradeoffs carefully.

My space will likely be more lively from the limited exposed drywall, as my ceiling is wood panel and floor thick carpet, so this is not a concern.

In the coming months I will begin to put all this together, I'm waiting for 2012 displays to be released. I will create a detailed post with room dimensions and layout, and I hope that you may be able to weigh in - at this point I believe the room will contain the SongTower and others in the series.

By the way, while I read through your perfect speaker journey as if it was weekly episodes of "24" I did not complete the similar journey for amp - what did you decide? Several years ago I owned an Aragon 4004 which would probably have paired nicely with the SongTowers, but I will eventually pair them with a 3-channel amp for HT. Yet another fun journey for myself, I suspect.

It sounds like you'll have an amazing room/setup in the next coming months. Do keep us posted!

I tried out a Butler 2250 amplifier and a Parasound 2100 preamp, but I sold the Butler. While it did magical things with the midrange and soundstage, the bass was too sloppy and bloated, and the highs were a bit too rolled off for my tastes. I held onto the Parasound 2100 and paired it with a Parasound Halo amplifier. When the rumored Halo P2 (or whatever they'll call it) is released I'll likely pick one up to replace the 2100. We'll see...

Through my "journey" I found that I prefer to keep the amplifier solid state and put the tubs elsewhere if you like tight, controlled bass. If I were ever to roll tubes it would be in the preamp or DAC.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
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