Time to bury my Bose 201 Series IV - Layout + Upgrade - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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First and foremost:

Want to thank everyone out there for some fantastic reading. Tons of support in here and I've come to trust and respect the group a lot.

Been browsing for a while now, as I've finally hung my Samsung 52" LN52A750 on the wall ( more importantly my kids are older now and I finally have some extra money).

I have a 14x11 living room and a budget of around $1,000. Layout is attached. Right now its just the Bose 201's side by side on the floor running off a Onkyo TX-SR607.

Wife is fine with floor standing speakers (or anything I come up with) and since the couch and chair in the corner are much higher than the Bose bookshelves as it is, my thinking is that with $1,000 wife will really go "oh #!$@ that was money well spent."

After reading many posts, I'm leanings towards:

- Energy CF 30/50/70
- Polk Monitor 40/70
- Outlaw Sub

Am I on the right track? I have no idea what models to get, should I think about Pioneer, Logan or Polk?

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post #2 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 12:06 PM
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First you need to rearrange the furniture.

The Outlaw sub is going to eat up 60% of your budget.

$400 for speakers isn't much. If you can take it, (the sound) a pair of the larger Polk monitors would work.

But my suggestion would be 3 or 5 (might put you over budget a little with 5) NHT Super Zeros at $100 each. Or for about $85 each some Infinity Primus 163/162s.

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post #3 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I hate the layout as well. Wife is in charge of moving stuff around, I get to spend the money on cars, electronics and toys.

I've read so much about that Outlaw sub I think I need to just raise the budget unless someone wants to chime in on a sub that can come close.

I can make it $1,750 for the total budget. I'll pull some money from my soft account.
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post #4 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 12:58 PM
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Is this room a sealed space or is it open to another room/s?

My biggest concern about floorstanding speakers is trying to cram them in your room. I think the recommendation for the smaller NHT speakers is a good recommendation. KEF, PSB, also make some great bookshelves.



Many tower speakers need room to sound there best, and that means potentially moving them 2-3' from the walls. If this is mostly for home theater, I would recommend a sealed bookshelf speaker and a good subwoofer.

The Outlaw is a great sub for your space, and the HSU VTF-2 would be great as well, or possibly a Rythmik FV12.
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post #5 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Over by the door there is a staircase that goes up to the second floor. So that is open. If the speakers are next to the TV, it can shoot the sound right over the stairs and into our dining room. It would fill the house.

And then over behind the couch is another opening, that goes to a hallway leading to our kitchen.

Hmmm....

I did not know I need to move these floorstandings away that far from the wall. I admit its not much space to work with. But with the chair and couch and nothing on the wall except for the TV, I'm not even sure where to put the bookshelves.

Should I just forget the speakers and buy a bigger house?
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post #6 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 01:16 PM
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It will not take much to beat the Bose, and you can also look
at wall-mount speakers.

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
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post #7 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a revised picture to show the opening:

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post #8 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline777 View Post

Over by the door there is a staircase that goes up to the second floor. So that is open. If the speakers are next to the TV, it can shoot the sound right over the stairs and into our dining room. It would fill the house.

And then over behind the couch is another opening, that goes to a hallway leading to our kitchen.

I was asking more for your subwoofer than your speakers. For the subs that you are looking at, your space should not be an issue. But I would not go much smaller. Either Outlaw sub would work, as well as the ones mentioned.

Quote:


Hmmm....

I did not know I need to move these floorstandings away that far from the wall. I admit its not much space to work with. But with the chair and couch and nothing on the wall except for the TV, I'm not even sure where to put the bookshelves.

Should I just forget the speakers and buy a bigger house?

It really does depend on which floor-standing speakers you buy. Some will be easier to place close to a wall than others, but my experience is that you need a minimum of about 18" with most floorstanding speakers, and even more with other types.

Again, if this is mostly for home theater, a good bookshelf speaker can sound very good as long as you have a good subwoofer.

For movies/TV that have 5.1 content, that content is specifically engineered for the subwoofer that is the .1 of the 5.1 above. Crossing over your main fronts in the 60-100 range (I have found 80hz to be a good starting point) will sound very good, especially in a room your size.

Something like this with a good subwoofer would be a nice setup:
http://www.svsound.com/systems/produ...&category_id=3

If you call them they will usually give you a discount if you buy the speaker package and a subwoofer as well. But it might be out of your budget.
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post #9 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 02:17 PM
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I would say take one of three approaches...1. get towers capable of getting pretty low and hold off on the sub. Go 3.0 or 5.0.
2. Get towers and a decent sub and stop at 2.1, maybe 3.1.
3. Get bookshelves, like the NHTs and a quality sub.

however, the unknowns...do you have room for the towers, with clearance from the wall? do you have a place for the bookshelves? Will the wife approve (otherwise you might get a couple nights sleeping on that couch!)

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #10 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline777 View Post

I hate the layout as well. Wife is in charge of moving stuff around, I get to spend the money on cars, electronics and toys.

I've read so much about that Outlaw sub I think I need to just raise the budget unless someone wants to chime in on a sub that can come close.

I can make it $1,750 for the total budget. I'll pull some money from my soft account.

NHT makes a wall mount version (all you need is a screw or nail in the wall) of their absolute zero at $199 each.
http://www.nhthifi.com/Home-Theater-...&category=7166

Various Def Tech Mythos can be wall mounted but they're quite expensive compared to NHT.

With limited space look for sealed of front ported speakers if possible.

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post #11 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hawk:

Oh wow I suck. Might even call me a noobie? I have no idea what it means when you say:

"Go 3.0 or 5.0"

---or----

"...stop at 2.1, maybe 3.1"

Would 3.1 be three speakers and a sub? Left, right and center? To be honest, the center is the hardest one since I've spent 2 years looking at that wall with the entertainment center and I'm stoked to just see the floor and bare wall beneath the TV!

Given the room, I really have no place to put bookshelves unless they are on stands, or on the floor. This is why I was thinking just go with floorstanding and not worry so much about the loss from being only 8" from the wall. They could go in the corners, left and right from the TV?

Any help is appreciated!
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post #12 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline777 View Post

Hawk:

Oh wow I suck. Might even call me a noobie? I have no idea what it means when you say:

"Go 3.0 or 5.0"

---or----

"...stop at 2.1, maybe 3.1"

Would 3.1 be three speakers and a sub? Left, right and center? To be honest, the center is the hardest one since I've spent 2 years looking at that wall with the entertainment center and I'm stoked to just see the floor and bare wall beneath the TV!

Given the room, I really have no place to put bookshelves unless they are on stands, or on the floor. This is why I was thinking just go with floorstanding and not worry so much about the loss from being only 8" from the wall. They could go in the corners, left and right from the TV?

Any help is appreciated!

Corners are some of the worst places to put tower speakers unless they are designed to be in the corner. The onwall options are looking better for you

Another option is to buy local from a place that has a good return policy and see how you like towers in the corner.
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post #13 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 03:07 PM
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On-wall looks to be a good option.
If you go towers, then front ported or sealed is the better option.

NHT Absolute tower
http://www.nhthifi.com/Absolute-Towe...&category=3773

EMP - closeout for on-wall speakers
http://emptek.com/ew30.php

Speaker placement
http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...rplacement.pdf

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post #14 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 07:09 PM
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if your budget is $1700 have a look at the hsu enthusiast 2 package $1433 ship.great speakers and sub

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #15 of 22 Old 03-06-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline777 View Post

First and foremost:

Want to thank everyone out there for some fantastic reading. Tons of support in here and I've come to trust and respect the group a lot.

Been browsing for a while now, as I've finally hung my Samsung 52" LN52A750 on the wall ( more importantly my kids are older now and I finally have some extra money).

I have a 14x11 living room and a budget of around $1,000. Layout is attached. Right now its just the Bose 201's side by side on the floor running off a Onkyo TX-SR607.

Wife is fine with floor standing speakers (or anything I come up with) and since the couch and chair in the corner are much higher than the Bose bookshelves as it is, my thinking is that with $1,000 wife will really go "oh #!$@ that was money well spent."

After reading many posts, I'm leanings towards:

- Energy CF 30/50/70
- Polk Monitor 40/70
- Outlaw Sub

Am I on the right track? I have no idea what models to get, should I think about Pioneer, Logan or Polk?


Can you move the sofa out into the room facing the TV?
If not, so be it...leave it there.
Can you place the left and right spkrs equal distant from the TV. One looks further away from the TV than the other. Sounds panning from left to right or right to left will give you a more convincing performance.
One thing I've done (when the authority isn't home) is move furniture out, and concentrate on just getting good sound and of coarse good looks, then start moving in the furniture.

Espo77
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post #16 of 22 Old 03-07-2012, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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ACK:

Reading through the replies here, and have a question. What did you mean by saying:

"...Crossing over your main fronts in the 60-100 range (I have found 80hz to be a good starting point)"

Not sure what it means to cross over? I would assume the sub has a cross over range and then the speakers have a range, and what I'm trying to do is cross over the frequency response so there is a small amount of over lap?

For example here are the stats on the Outlaw M8:

Specifications

Driver Type: Down Firing, 8" Long-throw Woofer

Ports: One, down firing

Amplifier Power Rating: 125W RMS class AB

Frequency Response:

29Hz-250Hz +/-3dB

Crossover:

Lowpass : 40Hz to 220Hz

Phase: 0 or 180 Degrees

Dimensions: (HxWxD) 14.5" x 10.875" x 14.125 "

Shipping Weight: 28 lbs
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post #17 of 22 Old 03-07-2012, 05:19 AM
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I am pretty much a noobie as well...

First, for every thing someone tell you as fact, someone else will disagree. Second, no matter your budget, someone will tell you you would be stupid to not spend more. That notwithstanding...
2.0 means two regular speakers, 2.1 means two regular speakers (tower or bookself style) and a subwoofer, etc.
for Home theater, most of your "sound" is directed to the front two or three speakers, with maybe 5% of the sound or less coming from surrounds. So the best bang for the buck is to get the best front two or three you can afford.
Most tower or floorstanders are capable of playing lower (more bass) than bookshelves...so if you get towers that can hit low freq (40 hz), you might be able to get by w/o a subwoofer. however, even with towers, subwoofers really give the whommp for HT!
In terms of recommendations, my experience with various systems is limited, so take the advice of the experts and LISTEN to as many speakers as you can.

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #18 of 22 Old 03-07-2012, 06:11 AM
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A pair of BIC Acoustech PL-89s would be great! They look sweet with Piano High Gloss Black Top and bottom and they have great mids, very punchy bass, and crystal clear highs.

And I +1 to the Outlaw sub as I have dual Pluses.

Shawn
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post #19 of 22 Old 03-07-2012, 07:25 AM
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For that size room, as others have mentioned, I would get wall mount LCRs and a sub. Placing the L/R wall mounts right next to the tv and the center just below.
But don't skimp on size of the wall mounts. I would suggest a pair of JBL L820 with a LC2 center. And add whatever sub you want.

Here is a pic of those speakers;

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post #20 of 22 Old 03-07-2012, 07:56 AM
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Let me clarify a couple of things. When a studio or movie audio engineer mixes their movie/show there is a dedicated channel for LFE (bass) that they send those signals to. In your AV receiver this is often referred to as the LPf of LFE and is usually configurable in your receiver. You want to leave this set at 120hz.

Now, depending on your speaker(s) you will then want to determine where you want to crossover the other lower frequency sound. THX's recommendation is setting your speakers to 80hz if you have a dedicated subwoofer. Some people may pick a higher or lower number depending on their speakers, subwoofer, and their preference. If your receiver supports Audyssey or other room correcting software, it will often help you set this, but again, you may want to adjust this to your liking (with Audyssey you can always adjust the crossover higher, just not lower. For example if Audyssey set your mains to 50hz, you may prefer 60hz or 80hz). The reason why 80hz is often mentioned is that is very hard to localize bass in that frequency range or lower, and often, your subwoofer will handle lower frequency better than your speakers. Again this is a preference thing.

I do recommend not putting 100% trust in speaker manufacturer specifications. A speaker may be rated to play down to 20hz, but it may not sound good getting there

Is the above now clear as mud

This article can help you understand more:
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...gs-made-simple


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerline777 View Post

ACK:

Reading through the replies here, and have a question. What did you mean by saying:

"...Crossing over your main fronts in the 60-100 range (I have found 80hz to be a good starting point)"

Not sure what it means to cross over? I would assume the sub has a cross over range and then the speakers have a range, and what I'm trying to do is cross over the frequency response so there is a small amount of over lap?

For example here are the stats on the Outlaw M8:

Specifications

Driver Type: Down Firing, 8" Long-throw Woofer

Ports: One, down firing

Amplifier Power Rating: 125W RMS class AB

Frequency Response:

29Hz-250Hz +/-3dB

Crossover:

Lowpass : 40Hz to 220Hz

Phase: 0 or 180 Degrees

Dimensions: (HxWxD) 14.5" x 10.875" x 14.125 "

Shipping Weight: 28 lbs

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post #21 of 22 Old 03-07-2012, 08:06 AM
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Another thing that stands out to me. Your current speakers are on the floor? Honestly, this is not ideal at all. Ideally you would want the tweeter on your speakers as close to ear level as possible, and your speakers properly placed (distance and height).

I think the on-wall speakers make a lot of sense for you and will result in a much better sound than you have today. Those JBL's seem like a good option and are reasonably priced. Combined with a capable subwoofer, I would think you would be very impressed over what you have today.
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post #22 of 22 Old 05-08-2012, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Got sidetracked there for a bit and ended up making my own speaker cables from some 12AWG. GLS plugs, techflex...etc.etc. Had a blast with that and NOW that I have an unlimited supply of cables I'm ready to make a move.

Thanks for all the posts in here, in the end I've decided no go on the wall units ( there is an old fireplace hidden in the wall ) and no go on the floorstanding units (In the end I won't have enough space for the floorstanding to be away from the wall and don't want to go front port.).

What I'm going to do is put the left speaker up on a stand, and then keep the right speaker up on a table. Both will be the same height. This means book shelf units I'm ready. 100%

I'm set on the Outlaw sub down the road. I want to rock my house. Now I need some bookshelf units with decent crossover paired with the outlaw.

For starters I have three picked out, and with a $500-$1000 budget just for the fronts what else would this fine group suggest?

- Energy RC-10
- KEF iQ30
- Canton GLE 420

Others?
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