Will running my towers on Full Band ruin/damage them? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys I'm running the BIC Acoustech PL-89s as Front L&R and have dual Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Pluses and have them hooked to an Onkyo 808.

I at first had the 89s xover at 60hz which I loved for movies, but not so much for 2 ch stereo music. Cuz there is no .1 the only sound going to the subs is 60hz and below. I found that there was a lack of bass set like that so I tried 80hz Xover and it sounded better. BUT for music to me what sounds best is having the 89s set to Full Band and Double Bass On.

Question: Will I ruin/damage the 89s if I leave them set to Full Band and Double Bass On for everything (TV, Movies, Music, Gaming)??? Keep in mind my room isn't acoustically treated and my wife hates loudness and we have a 10 month old daughter so our movie listening is at -44 to -34db, TV at -54 to -44db, and music at -20 to -30 db.

The reason I'm asking is cuz its a pain to have to switch those settings everytime I want to listen to music compared to TV or movie. PLUS my wife never changes anything nor do I want her to. LOL. Also I don't wanna screw up my speakers, so help make my decision.

Shawn
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post #2 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 12:08 PM
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I don't know those specific speakers but to answer your question, no. You can run any speaker "full" but what you get out of it depends on the speaker design. If the speakers are rated down to 60 Hz (-3 dB) there is no point to do so however if you have the cross over set to 80 or above Hz.

Sounds good!
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post #3 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanx. So playing bass heavy movie scenes with freqs lower than the speakers can hit won't damage them?

The PL-89s are rated 25hz - 23khz +/- 3db.

They can hit 40hz pretty good. The reason I don't want to set the Xover to 40 is because then for 2 ch stereo music the subs only put out below 40hz and my subs sound great up to a much higher freq than that. But the PL-89s also sound good well below 80hz. So I was just trying to maximize the bass output where both speakers and subs play well.

If I set them to Full Band and have the other 5 speakers Xover at 80hz will that put too much strain on my AVR rated at 135wpc rms continuous 2 channels driven?

Shawn
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post #4 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 12:48 PM
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Hello flick, good to see you are enjoying your set up. Running them at full band wont hurt your Pl's at all. They only thing it may hinder is the front sound stage... or your sub performance with imaging that is. As far as your 808 your fine there as well. I have a set of Pl-76's as I use them for surrounds now but I had them for mains at first ( I have the Klipsch KG 5.5's as mains now) but... I still use the Bic Pl-28 for center. I have played around with all types of setting's as I find 60 to 80 for the front stage seems to work the best... for me anyhow.

I am curious to see how the PL-89's are for bassas a 2ch thou? If you get a chance could you give me a little fed back? Place the setting on stereo so only 2ch are driven but you have to go into the setting and set it to "no sub woffer" .. I believe it autosets the mains as large. That way all the LFE goes to the mains. If by chance you cant or dont want to thats ok too, I am just curious to see how the 89's are. The reason I ask is because when I did that for my KG's it opened up the woffers to where "wow"... now I understand the bass the the others have mentioned about the KGs.

Anyhow... have fun!
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post #5 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Thanx. So playing bass heavy movie scenes with freqs lower than the speakers can hit won't damage them?

The PL-89s are rated 25hz - 23khz +/- 3db.

They can hit 40hz pretty good. The reason I don't want to set the Xover to 40 is because then for 2 ch stereo music the subs only put out below 40hz and my subs sound great up to a much higher freq than that. But the PL-89s also sound good well below 80hz. So I was just trying to maximize the bass output where both speakers and subs play well.

If I set them to Full Band and have the other 5 speakers Xover at 80hz will that put too much strain on my AVR rated at 135wpc rms continuous 2 channels driven?

If your AVR allows you to run the towers full range + output to the sub, try that to hear how you like it. And play around with the XO point of the sub.
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post #6 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

I don't know those specific speakers but to answer your question, no. You can run any speaker "full" but what you get out of it depends on the speaker design.

It depends on the specific drivers, listening level, and what sort of low frequency peaks you get in your source material.

Maximum displacement limited output from a monopole in free space is 102.4 + 20log(one-way driver travel) + 20 log(driver area) - 20 log distance distance with travel, area, and distance all in meters (squared for area).

SPL at one meter for various example drivers around their linear limit (where the length of voice coil within the magnetic gap drops) is listed below for 80/40/20Hz.

Size Driver Sd (cm^2) x xmax (mm) 80Hz 40Hz 20Hz
5 1/4" Peerless 830873 88 x 3.5 88dB 76dB 64dB
6 1/4" Seas L16RN-SL 104 x 6 94dB 82dB 70dB
7" Seas W18EX001 126 x 5 95dB 83dB 71dB
8.5" Seas W22EX001 220 x 5 99dB 87dB 75dB
10" Peerless 830452 352 x 12.5 111dB 99dB 87dB

At your listening position you probably loose 3-5dB (it's not the 6dB/doubling you get outdoors due to the reverberant field) and there's a similar margin between xmax (around where the driver stops being linear) and xmech (where it runs into your mechanical limits) so those are close to the points where drivers stop making louder noises.

When reaching those limits some drivers will be damaged, often by their voice coil former banging on the motor back plate.
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post #7 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post

It depends on the specific drivers, listening level, and what sort of low frequency peaks you get in your source material... some drivers will be damaged, often by their voice coil former banging on the motor back plate.

Got it!

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post #8 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skally View Post

Hello flick, good to see you are enjoying your set up. Running them at full band wont hurt your Pl's at all. They only thing it may hinder is the front sound stage... or your sub performance with imaging that is. As far as your 808 your fine there as well. I have a set of Pl-76's as I use them for surrounds now but I had them for mains at first ( I have the Klipsch KG 5.5's as mains now) but... I still use the Bic Pl-28 for center. I have played around with all types of setting's as I find 60 to 80 for the front stage seems to work the best... for me anyhow.

I am curious to see how the PL-89's are for bassas a 2ch thou? If you get a chance could you give me a little fed back? Place the setting on stereo so only 2ch are driven but you have to go into the setting and set it to "no sub woffer" .. I believe it autosets the mains as large. That way all the LFE goes to the mains. If by chance you cant or dont want to thats ok too, I am just curious to see how the 89's are. The reason I ask is because when I did that for my KG's it opened up the woffers to where "wow"... now I understand the bass the the others have mentioned about the KGs.

Anyhow... have fun!

I have tried running them in Full Band in 2 ch stereo music and also for 7.1 DTS HD MA movies but only for a short while. I have to say they impressed me for how deep they can go and how hard they can hit. I've honestly owned "subs" that couldn't sound like that. But they by themselves are no match for a "real" sub.

I will try running them Full Band and Double Bass ON sending all bass from Front L&R to the L&R and also to the subs. I listen a fairly low levels so hopefully I'll be ok. I just don't want to ruin anything as I just got them a month ago.

Shawn
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post #9 of 25 Old 03-08-2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

I have tried running them in Full Band in 2 ch stereo music and also for 7.1 DTS HD MA movies but only for a short while. I have to say they impressed me for how deep they can go and how hard they can hit. I've honestly owned "subs" that couldn't sound like that. But they by themselves are no match for a "real" sub.

I will try running them Full Band and Double Bass ON sending all bass from Front L&R to the L&R and also to the subs. I listen a fairly low levels so hopefully I'll be ok. I just don't want to ruin anything as I just got them a month ago.

No problem at all Flick, I just thought I would get your opinion is all as I was informing a friend of mine to look into the 89's is all, no need to run them any more than mid level . Have fun my friend
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post #10 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skally View Post

No problem at all Flick, I just thought I would get your opinion is all as I was informing a friend of mine to look into the 89's is all, no need to run them any more than mid level . Have fun my friend

Ok so I tried them out as Full Band and Double Bass ON... For 2 ch stereo music it sounds awesome, BUT for 7.1 movie/TV it really muddied up the front sound stage. Now I know what everyone means when they say that. The bass sounded muddy and the highs and mids just didn't seem as clear and clean either.

So decision made, keep them xovered at 80hz for everything unless I'm going to listen to music for extended time periods then I may switch it. I put it back to 80hz and the mids and highs came back and opened up.

Shawn
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post #11 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 07:54 AM
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Instead of changing multiple settings switching between music/movies your Onkyo may have a Tone Control setting in the audio settings portion. You will have the ability to adjust bass and treble for all channels here. It's kind of like a simple equalizer, if you will. What I do is I run my sub a few decibels hot via sound level meter and bump the subwoofer up 2 points in the Tone Control menu. I find this a decent balance. It CAN get a bit boomy during some movies, and in this situation I have to bump down the tone control settings. It may just work with your current crossover scheme while bumping up bass to desired levels. Hope this helps.

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post #12 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DamageMcRamage View Post

Instead of changing multiple settings switching between music/movies your Onkyo may have a Tone Control setting in the audio settings portion. You will have the ability to adjust bass and treble for all channels here. It's kind of like a simple equalizer, if you will. What I do is I run my sub a few decibels hot via sound level meter and bump the subwoofer up 2 points in the Tone Control menu. I find this a decent balance. It CAN get a bit boomy during some movies, and in this situation I have to bump down the tone control settings. It may just work with your current crossover scheme while bumping up bass to desired levels. Hope this helps.

Thanks, yeah I can do that and have tried that. It works, I was just hoping to find a one size fits all application. I guess I'm too picky and lazy.

Shawn
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post #13 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Thanks, yeah I can do that and have tried that. It works, I was just hoping to find a one size fits all application. I guess I'm too picky and lazy.

I completely agree. I would like to be able to customize settings and save them, then switch on the fly. There is a complete difference between movies and music, and I always find the bass to be lacking in music unless you go to a ridiculously high x-over; which introduces a number of other problems. I found this method to be the best compromise I could find.

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post #14 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 08:57 AM
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Don't most avrs allow you to save two different sets of EQ settings?


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post #15 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I havent figured out how....You can save different settings for different input sources. But the problem is my blu-ray player also doubles as my CD player.

Shawn
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post #16 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 01:00 PM
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Does your Onkyo allow you to set an equilizer curve for all channels seperately? Even the sub? Mine does, you may want to look into that.
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post #17 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sempersyko View Post

Does your Onkyo allow you to set an equilizer curve for all channels seperately? Even the sub? Mine does, you may want to look into that.

I don't believe it does. In the EQ menu my options are OFF, MANUAL, and AUDYSSEY.

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post #18 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 06:13 PM
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Hey Flick, I've got the 807 version of your 808, great AVR IMO! Like you, I do the switch back and forth.

My Audessy has my mains XO at 40Hz and sounds awesome in my set up. For 2ch listening, I hit the remote set up button and go to speaker config. I push "no" sub and the system automatically sets the mains to full band, and I have double bass "on" already.

That's all I need and I'm set for "Pure Audio" mode. My mains do an incredible job.

When back to movies, I just hit the remote again and set "yes" for sub and one click to put the mains back to 40Hz.

It's a small pain but the switch takes place in under 30 seconds, I don't even consider it a chore.

Glad you're liking your set up.

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post #19 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 07:51 PM
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Pure audio by default on onkyo puts your mains at full range and turns off your sub. There is no reason to go through config menus, just switch to pure audio.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #20 of 25 Old 03-09-2012, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Pure audio by default on onkyo puts your mains at full range and turns off your sub. There is no reason to go through config menus, just switch to pure audio.

Yep, and the doublebass doesn't do anything in pure audio either.
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post #21 of 25 Old 03-10-2012, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

Hey Flick, I've got the 807 version of your 808, great AVR IMO! Like you, I do the switch back and forth.

My Audessy has my mains XO at 40Hz and sounds awesome in my set up. For 2ch listening, I hit the remote set up button and go to speaker config. I push "no" sub and the system automatically sets the mains to full band, and I have double bass "on" already.

That's all I need and I'm set for "Pure Audio" mode. My mains do an incredible job.

When back to movies, I just hit the remote again and set "yes" for sub and one click to put the mains back to 40Hz.

It's a small pain but the switch takes place in under 30 seconds, I don't even consider it a chore.

Glad you're liking your set up.

Ok.... FYI if subs are set to no Double bass doesn't do anything. Double bass is for when you have front speakers set to full band and subs on, what it does is send all bass to the front L&R and ALSO to the subs.

Shawn
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post #22 of 25 Old 03-10-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Pure audio by default on onkyo puts your mains at full range and turns off your sub. There is no reason to go through config menus, just switch to pure audio.

Unfortunately pure audio does not use the subwoofer, which we do want to include in this application.

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post #23 of 25 Old 03-10-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Pure audio by default on onkyo puts your mains at full range and turns off your sub. There is no reason to go through config menus, just switch to pure audio.

Thanks, that's good to know! I couln't find that anywhere in the maual

Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Ok.... FYI if subs are set to no Double bass doesn't do anything. Double bass is for when you have front speakers set to full band and subs on, what it does is send all bass to the front L&R and ALSO to the subs.

Thanks, that I did know. When my sub is on and mains set to small, the intention was to try and send extra bass to the sub.

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post #24 of 25 Old 03-10-2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

Thanks, that I did know. When my sub is on and mains set to small, the intention was to try and send extra bass to the sub.

There is no extra bass. When you set your mains to full range, and the sub is also connected, the double bass setup just splits the bass signal and sends it to both.
If you have the mains set to small, then the bass is only going to the sub.
If you want more bass output then you need the mains set to full range as well.
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post #25 of 25 Old 03-10-2012, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

There is no extra bass. When you set your mains to full range, and the sub is also connected, the double bass setup just splits the bass signal and sends it to both.
If you have the mains set to small, then the bass is only going to the sub.
If you want more bass output then you need the mains set to full range as well.

Thanks, my sub is more than capable. I set my "double bass" option to off, my mains are not full band.

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