Bose 901 VI, havent found the right amp - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I am. If you can't provide proof of your claims you're in the wrong forum. The 'S' in AVS does stand for Science.
As for the Bose 901 driver, this is the equivalent to the driver that they use:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-922

Bose gets theirs for $5 each. There are nine in the 901. That's $45. The entire cost of building a 901 is less than $150. And now you know why Amar Bose is a Billionaire.
In all fairness, there's nothing wrong with 'paper', which is correctly referred to as pulp. It's used in over 75% of drivers.

There's no reason to start arguing semantics'. LOL!

Are you saying that the entire drivers of these 75% are made from paper/pulp or they're partially made from it? Because I've seen a lot of speakers and most, if not all of them, don't look like they're made from, 100%, paper/pulp. Bose speakers, on the other hand, look like the driver/cone is 100% paper. It looks like someone took an actual piece of paper, rolled it into a cone shape and made a speaker driver, cheap and flimsy looking. As you said, nothing wrong with paper/pulp, but it's certainly cheap, which makes the prices Bose command even more ridiculous.

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Of course, I got it modified with the TK-427, which cheeks it up another, maybe, 3 or 4 quads per channel.
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post #92 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 08:14 AM
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Are you saying that the entire drivers of these 75% are made from paper/pulp or they're partially made from it?
Entirely. Pulp is actually one of the best materials available for cones. In some higher power applications, like subs, it may be reinforced, but the vast majority of cone drivers don't need any more stiffness or strength than that of pure pulp.

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post #93 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Entirely. Pulp is actually one of the best materials available for cones. In some higher power applications, like subs, it may be reinforced, but the vast majority of cone drivers don't need any more stiffness or strength than that of pure pulp.

That would seem like a cheap design as well. Why wouldn't every speaker manufacturer simply use this then? Why do they even use all the other weird materials they do?

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Of course, I got it modified with the TK-427, which cheeks it up another, maybe, 3 or 4 quads per channel.
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post #94 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 09:12 AM
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All speakers should be made with Kevlar...then your speaker can take a bullet! wink.gif

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #95 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MrEastSide View Post

That would seem like a cheap design as well. Why wouldn't every speaker manufacturer simply use this then? Why do they even use all the other weird materials they do?
In cases where pulp that's not reinforced works perfectly well the only thing you accomplish with reinforcing it is to increase the cost. This would be a case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. More expensive materials can have some advantages over pulp, and if you're willing to pay the price, go for it. But to say that pulp is 'cheap' is like saying everyone should drive a $50k plus car, because anything less than $50k is 'cheap'.

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post #96 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

As for the Bose 901 driver, this is the equivalent to the driver that they use:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-922

Someone should manufacturer aftermarket 901 cabinets for them and sell them on Parts Express for a couple hundred: "Bose 901 DIY kits for $450."

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post #97 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by r3zon8 View Post

I picked up a set of used Bose 901's series 6 with EQ recently, the seller threw in an American Audio amp(info below). The setup sounded great, i was very very impressed and it fit my taste.


The bad...this amp is rack mountable and has 2 80mm fans that run on full blast as soon as you power it on. When the music is blasting you dont notice it, but in movies, its just too loud. So i started searching for a new amp.


I was recommended a Crown amp and I picked up an xls 'drive core' 1500.


The sound from these amps(i tried both 1500 and 3500 models) are nowhere near the sound i was getting from the AmericanAudio unit.


im really at a loss as to what amp to pair up with these speakers. or better yet, what specs should i be looking for when it comes to choosing the right amp for a set of Bose 901's.


Thanks!


American Audio VLP-600
http://www.adjaudio.com/ProductDetai...&Category=Amps



Crown XLS 2500
http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xls_drivecore.htm

Check out the NAD line of amps. They have a regular line and if you want to spend more money, the Master series...180 watts RMS...much higher for peaks. I own a pair of Bose 901VI Concerto's (Multiple layers of black lacquer). They have been packed away in their boxes since I went to surround sound. I used to power them with an Adcom 100 watt RMS two channel amp, and sometimes with a 28 watt x2 Crown amp.. In the average size room, I can't see any reason why you would need anything more than the 180 per channel NAD amps I mentioned above due to the high efficiency of the 901's.

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post #98 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

I can't see any reason why you would need anything more than the 180 per channel NAD amps I mentioned above due to the high efficiency of the 901's.
That depends on the room and listening volume, as the 901 has very low sensitivity. It doesn't show up on their specs, such as they are, but once you apply the mandatory signal processing the actual effective sensitivity of the 901 is less than 80dB.
It was more obvious with the original passive network, which sucked up power like mad. One selling point of the original pro-sound 801 was that they were rated for 'unlimited' power'. That's because at the time even 200 watt amps were rare, and the passive network sucked up about 9dB of the amp output, so even 500w couldn't get them to high output levels. Eventually Bose came out with their own 1800w amp to power 801s, an eighty pound four space monster, which when coupled with 801s through the passive network gave the same dB output of standard PA speakers driven with 200w or less.

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post #99 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 06:01 PM
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It was an ugly-sounding amp...

The EQ curve looks like a big smile, or at least it used to... The 801's I used were power by a Phase Linear 700 for a while. I got much better sound for much less power after I got rid of them...

IIRC the original 901 was effectively something like 77 dB/W/m, raising to 83 - 85 dB/W/m after tweaks to the EQ and new driver (speaker) and enclosure design. I am pretty sure about the 77 as I measured it way back then and it was the lowest I have measured before or since.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #100 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

It was an ugly-sounding amp...

The EQ curve looks like a big smile, or at least it used to... .
+1. The phrase 'got no highs, got no lows, must be Bose' was probably coined by the first person to hear a 901 without the passive contour network. It uses midrange drivers, so the only way to get any lows or highs out of it is to filter out the mids. That gives the EQ a smiley face curve, while it should give anyone who bought them a frowned face.

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post #101 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That depends on the room and listening volume, as the 901 has very low sensitivity. It doesn't show up on their specs, such as they are, but once you apply the mandatory signal processing the actual effective sensitivity of the 901 is less than 80dB.
It was more obvious with the original passive network, which sucked up power like mad. One selling point of the original pro-sound 801 was that they were rated for 'unlimited' power'. That's because at the time even 200 watt amps were rare, and the passive network sucked up about 9dB of the amp output, so even 500w couldn't get them to high output levels. Eventually Bose came out with their own 1800w amp to power 801s, an eighty pound four space monster, which when coupled with 801s through the passive network gave the same dB output of standard PA speakers driven with 200w or less.

I guess I assumed the high sensitivity due to the posted spec by Bose of recommended amplifier wattage from 10 to 450. Also, I used an old Crown D60 (I loved that thing) which was rated at only 28 watts x2.
In a 20'x14 room, I could really get them cranking. I had the 901's hanging about eighteen inches down from an eight foot ceiling, with the rear chains a little longer than the front ones to angle the eight speakers downwards just a bit...(just a little unimportant information)

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post #102 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

In cases where pulp that's not reinforced works perfectly well the only thing you accomplish with reinforcing it is to increase the cost. This would be a case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. More expensive materials can have some advantages over pulp, and if you're willing to pay the price, go for it. But to say that pulp is 'cheap' is like saying everyone should drive a $50k plus car, because anything less than $50k is 'cheap'.

I didn't mean cheap as in, they sucked. I just meant cheap as in, cost-effective.

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Of course, I got it modified with the TK-427, which cheeks it up another, maybe, 3 or 4 quads per channel.
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post #103 of 204 Old 02-02-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MrEastSide View Post

I didn't mean cheap as in, they sucked. I just meant cheap as in, cost-effective.

Yeah, cheap could mean shoddy, or it could mean that a product sold for less then it's value.

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post #104 of 204 Old 02-03-2013, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I am. If you can't provide proof of your claims you're in the wrong forum. The 'S' in AVS does stand for Science.
As for the Bose 901 driver, this is the equivalent to the driver that they use:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-922

That driver is a fake! Avoid them!
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post #105 of 204 Old 02-03-2013, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Bose gets theirs for $5 each. There are nine in the 901. That's $45. The entire cost of building a 901 is less than $150. And now you know why Amar Bose is a Billionaire.
In all fairness, there's nothing wrong with 'paper', which is correctly referred to as pulp. It's used in over 75% of drivers.

Bose genuine drivers, $5 each? Give me a link to them! Wow!
$150 building costs? After thousands of sold pairs I've not any difficulty to believe you! biggrin.gif

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post #106 of 204 Old 02-03-2013, 05:52 AM
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There is a reason why other speaker companies and the DIY community do not copy what Bose does... If Bose was revolutionary, you would see a million copycats..

There is a also a reason why we don't see published measurements of their speakers.. Because Bose would sue whomever published them, and we all know Bose does everything they can to avoid publishing measurements. Because it would reveal the gaping holes their speakers have across the frequency response spectrum.
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Originally Posted by dadox View Post

That driver is a fake! Avoid them!
bose is a fake! avoid them!

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #108 of 204 Old 02-03-2013, 07:42 AM
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That driver is a fake! Avoid them!
Before engaging in any extended technical discussion I make it a point to look at the other parties profile, and if they use a real name I google it, to see if I'm in an exchange with someone who has any real credentials. You might want to consider doing the same.
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There is a also a reason why we don't see published measurements of their speakers.. Because Bose would sue whomever published them, and we all know Bose does everything they can to avoid publishing measurements.
They did sue Consumer Reports over a bad review, because CR had the integrity to report the truth, and because CR doesn't sell advertising space to the same companies that it reviews, so Bose couldn't buy them off. Bose eventually lost. As for their oft repeated 'better sound through research' mantra, Bose has twice as many lawyers and ten times as many marketing department executives as they do engineers.

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post #109 of 204 Old 02-09-2013, 11:22 PM
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Thanks for posting the link to the article from the European hi-fi magazine, Dadox. Very interesting. I always enjoy finding historical writings on my favorite classic audio designs, especially the Bose 901 and the Klipsch Heritage line.

In fact, trawling the internet for Bose-related stuff is how I originally got sucked into the life-draining experience of defending my Bose 901's to the Bose-haters who inhabit this forum. It was a thread much like this one started out being. Some poor unsuspecting soul landed on this forum thinking he's going to get some help with a question regarding his Bose speakers and BAM...he gets informed by the audio cognescenti here that all things Bose are horrible and that they, the OP's, are either poor ignorant lost lambs or total idiots for having any of their products....or words to that effect. So, being the internet-traveling Prince Galahad I am, I naturally plunge into battle for the sacred honor of my beloved 901's.

Did someone just say "beloved 901's"? Why yes, I believe they did! And it seems to have been little old me. Why would I say that about something that is the object of so much derision and ridicule by the all-knowing, all-seeing "experts" who troll these parts? Well, I'll tell ya.

The Bose 901 gave me my man-cave back. Everything I had tried in it previously sounded unsatisfactory at best. After finally attaining what was supposed to be my life-long speakers (klipschorns) and a dedicated room for them I was distressed to discover they just didn't sound very good in my purpose-built music room. Major downer, indeed. So I tried B&W 703's...and subs. Better but no go. Still lifeless sound and lumpy, weak bass.

I finally gave up on the room and moved the 703's to the family room, where they sounded very good. But the family room was...the familys' room, so I longed for my comfy old music room / man cave. after a few years of trying to find happiness with a long succession of different speakers in the family room (the B&W's, Mo-Fi's, Energys, Polks, klipsch la scala II's and RBH's, I decided to try my old friends, the 901's in the music room. Voila! Bingo!! Golly Gee!!! They sounded wonderful in that troublesome acoustic. That was four years ago. I've been off the loudspeaker merry-go-round ever since.

Now why should that be? Am I inexperienced with audio, after owning Advents, ESS amt-1b's, Klipsch Cornwalls, Amrita Reference Standards, K-horns, and then the long procession of speakers already mentioned? The facts would tend to say that I'm not .

Do I not know what live music sounds like? Well, I don't go to a lot of concerts anymore, but I've been to a number over my lifetime. Ronstadt, The Eagles, The Beach Boys, Macca, The Doobies, The Daredevils, Elton John, The Dirt Band, Billy Joel, Elvis Costello, etc. (Yes, I'm a relic from the 70's.) And I continue to hear good live music occasionally, and when I do I always think about what I'm hearing. I really do. I listen to live music as an audiophile and I use the experience in judging the quality of reproduced sound. Live is the only valid "measurement tool" as far as I'm concerned. Measurements may be have their place in designing speakers and concert halls, but how something sounds to my ears, in my room, with my music is all that matters to me when it comes time to buy speakers and or set them up. I measure too, but it's just a tool. The ears are the final judge.

I know I'm rehashing some ground here, but sometimes you have to keep working the ground over and over in different directions to get the seedbed just right so the seed can sprout and grow. So that's what I'm doing. Maybe some will grow in the barren ground of the AVS forums. rolleyes.gif

To the heart of the matter... Believe it or not, some people, even experienced audiophiles / music lovers really do love Bose 901's! Even though we know it's not the audiophile-approved thing to do...or at least to admit to doing. We love them because of the way they sound and the way that sound makes us feel. Cheap parts? I don't care. If Amar Bose can get this kind of performance with cheap parts, then bless his heart for doing so. It only makes the performance all the more amazing, and an amazing testament to his engineering brilliance. If you don't like the sound, who cares? There's lots of other speakers out there for you to pick from. Just don't knock mine. Is that too much to ask?
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post #110 of 204 Old 02-09-2013, 11:46 PM
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...I listen to live music as an audiophile and I use the experience in judging the quality of reproduced sound. Live is the only valid "measurement tool" as far as I'm concerned...

This is a very telling statement. If that's what you like, that's great. More power to you. But don't be surprised that a majority of people have a different perspective. There is a reason that albums are recorded in studios rather than concert arenas.

However, you have convinced me that Bose has it place. So I say if you want your "too slick", "over produced" studio recorded albums to sound like they were recorded in an acoustically challenged environment like a concert arena, buy Bose!

Bose! Providing you with the same sonic qualities as the PA monitors used during live performances!

David
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post #111 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 12:12 AM
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Now why should that be? Am I inexperienced with audio, after owning Advents, ESS amt-1b's, Klipsch Cornwalls, Amrita Reference Standards, K-horns, and then the long procession of speakers already mentioned? The facts would tend to say that I'm not .

All you have done is prove that you have bad tastes in speakers if you prefer Bose to everything else. LOL

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post #112 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 01:27 AM
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Thanks for posting the link to the article from the European hi-fi magazine, Dadox. Very interesting. I always enjoy finding historical writings on my favorite classic audio designs, especially the Bose 901 and the Klipsch Heritage line.

In fact, trawling the internet for Bose-related stuff is how I originally got sucked into the life-draining experience of defending my Bose 901's to the Bose-haters who inhabit this forum. It was a thread much like this one started out being. Some poor unsuspecting soul landed on this forum thinking he's going to get some help with a question regarding his Bose speakers and BAM...he gets informed by the audio cognescenti here that all things Bose are horrible and that they, the OP's, are either poor ignorant lost lambs or total idiots for having any of their products....or words to that effect. So, being the internet-traveling Prince Galahad I am, I naturally plunge into battle for the sacred honor of my beloved 901's.

Did someone just say "beloved 901's"? Why yes, I believe they did! And it seems to have been little old me. Why would I say that about something that is the object of so much derision and ridicule by the all-knowing, all-seeing "experts" who troll these parts? Well, I'll tell ya.

The Bose 901 gave me my man-cave back. Everything I had tried in it previously sounded unsatisfactory at best. After finally attaining what was supposed to be my life-long speakers (klipschorns) and a dedicated room for them I was distressed to discover they just didn't sound very good in my purpose-built music room. Major downer, indeed. So I tried B&W 703's...and subs. Better but no go. Still lifeless sound and lumpy, weak bass.

I finally gave up on the room and moved the 703's to the family room, where they sounded very good. But the family room was...the familys' room, so I longed for my comfy old music room / man cave. after a few years of trying to find happiness with a long succession of different speakers in the family room (the B&W's, Mo-Fi's, Energys, Polks, klipsch la scala II's and RBH's, I decided to try my old friends, the 901's in the music room. Voila! Bingo!! Golly Gee!!! They sounded wonderful in that troublesome acoustic. That was four years ago. I've been off the loudspeaker merry-go-round ever since.

Now why should that be? Am I inexperienced with audio, after owning Advents, ESS amt-1b's, Klipsch Cornwalls, Amrita Reference Standards, K-horns, and then the long procession of speakers already mentioned? The facts would tend to say that I'm not .

Do I not know what live music sounds like? Well, I don't go to a lot of concerts anymore, but I've been to a number over my lifetime. Ronstadt, The Eagles, The Beach Boys, Macca, The Doobies, The Daredevils, Elton John, The Dirt Band, Billy Joel, Elvis Costello, etc. (Yes, I'm a relic from the 70's.) And I continue to hear good live music occasionally, and when I do I always think about what I'm hearing. I really do. I listen to live music as an audiophile and I use the experience in judging the quality of reproduced sound. Live is the only valid "measurement tool" as far as I'm concerned. Measurements may be have their place in designing speakers and concert halls, but how something sounds to my ears, in my room, with my music is all that matters to me when it comes time to buy speakers and or set them up. I measure too, but it's just a tool. The ears are the final judge.

I know I'm rehashing some ground here, but sometimes you have to keep working the ground over and over in different directions to get the seedbed just right so the seed can sprout and grow. So that's what I'm doing. Maybe some will grow in the barren ground of the AVS forums. rolleyes.gif

To the heart of the matter... Believe it or not, some people, even experienced audiophiles / music lovers really do love Bose 901's! Even though we know it's not the audiophile-approved thing to do...or at least to admit to doing. We love them because of the way they sound and the way that sound makes us feel. Cheap parts? I don't care. If Amar Bose can get this kind of performance with cheap parts, then bless his heart for doing so. It only makes the performance all the more amazing, and an amazing testament to his engineering brilliance. If you don't like the sound, who cares? There's lots of other speakers out there for you to pick from. Just don't knock mine. Is that too much to ask?

Glad you enjoy the speakers but why waste your time trying to defend your choice and Bose? Every audio related forum I visited is the same regarding Bose. The vast majority of audiophiles don't like them, never will!

Also It is strange to me, that ALL your posts here are in Bose threads. Maybe you should start a Bose 901 owners thread, maybe others would show some leniency, and not unleash the Bose bashing fun!

BTW I owned Bose 901, 10.2 and those cube things, all sold and moved on.
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post #113 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 04:40 AM
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To the heart of the matter... Believe it or not, some people, even experienced audiophiles / music lovers really do love Bose 901's! ?

fwiw, maybe if you get all 5 or 6 of those bose brainwashed uneducated lovers of the 901's and yourself together you could have a good laugh on how the educated audiophiles put down your undesirable, way,way, overpriced, sounding and ugly looking boxes of garbage. just a suggestion












[/quote]

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post #114 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 05:51 AM
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The OP was looking for an amp that would make his 901's sound good and I was a horrible person for suggesting it was his speakers that were the problem. Sorry DAT, but regardless of what you believe, I actually was trying to help him. Now if he's dead set on his 901's and he thinks a different amp is going to make them sound different then I'm sorry because it went from being able to help, to being a lost cause. And the commencement of beating a very dead horse.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #115 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by crussader View Post

However, you have convinced me that Bose has it place.
It does, in a landfill. biggrin.gif

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post #116 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

The OP was looking for an amp that would make his 901's sound good and I was a horrible person for suggesting it was his speakers that were the problem. Sorry DAT, but regardless of what you believe, I actually was trying to help him. Now if he's dead set on his 901's and he thinks a different amp is going to make them sound different then I'm sorry because it went from being able to help, to being a lost cause. And the commencement of beating a very dead horse.

Bah, clearly he just some $1-2K audio cables and then everything will sound perfect. And if he really wants to splurge, some $21K Audioquest Everest cables should do the trick smile.gif
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post #117 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It does, in a landfill. biggrin.gif

You are a speaker designer, Bill. Do you think this mod would make Bose 901s sound better?



Am imagining buying a broken pair of 901s, making this mod, and claiming emphatically it makes the 901s sound better than any speaker out there. Who could argue? Claims about Bose SQ are not backed by science biggrin.gif

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post #118 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 01:37 PM
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You are a speaker designer, Bill. Do you think this mod would make Bose 901s sound better?
It couldn't make them any worse. wink.gif

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post #119 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You are a speaker designer, Bill. Do you think this mod would make Bose 901s sound better?



Am imagining buying a broken pair of 901s, making this mod, and claiming emphatically it makes the 901s sound better than any speaker out there. Who could argue? Claims about Bose SQ are not backed by science biggrin.gif
wow! i'm really surprised that bose engineers did'nt come up with that technology first they must be kicking themselves.there was billion$ to be made

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post #120 of 204 Old 02-10-2013, 04:14 PM
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And patent it, calling it "Bose protrusion audio technology"

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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