Running 2 separate Speakers off a single output (center channel) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 369 Old 03-25-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Mono -> stereo -> 5.1 -> 6.1 -> 7.1 -> ????

Maybe after tordogs experiment turns out successful, manufacturers will offer dual center channel. Don't forget they did offer a rear center channel with the 6.1 system.

seriously to Torqdogs actual problem, he should try out a speaker with a 10" full range and a horn tweeter as the center channel. Ooooomph all the way!

They already have, way back in the early days of HT, Yamaha specifically. If you believe in the learning/progression of things then one would assume they figured out that it was a bad idea.
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post #92 of 369 Old 03-25-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Yeah, and I'm still not quite sure how I would incorporate a 3rd Silver that stands 39" tall. The 60" LCD would have to go above it which is gonna make viewing a bit of a stretch of the neck due to the height of the TV. I'm also exploring aquiring the Stratus Bronze which is the slightly smaller brother to the Silver yet has the same woofers and tweeters and stands 36" high so timbre matching shouldn't be a problem. But bottom line is that if I've learned anything in this thread, it's that;

a) Mixing or even running two centers to try and fix an intelligibility problem is probably not gonna work though I'll have fun trying. And again, who knows....... maybe it WILL suffice in the short term and I already have the ingredients to perform said experiment so really have nothing to lose but the little time involved.

If you really want to try this, set them up with one above the screen and one below the screen. The benefit is that the "image" will be centered between them, and in the middle of the screen, right were the actors mouths usually are. You'll have the net effect of a speaker behind the screen, which is otherwise impossible without an acoustically transparent screen. You'll still have some comb-filtering effect, and some timbre mis-match, especially off-axis, but you'll at least have the benefit of a more appropriately perceived central image.

Do NOT set them next to each other or one on top the other.

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b) Ideally, utilizing three identical same model speakers across the soundstage is the way to go. I just wish the Silvers weren't so danged tall though I'm sure that's one of the factors that makes them sound so danged good.

You could build a riser for your seating.

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post #93 of 369 Old 03-25-2012, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

y'know, just when i thought it couldn't any worse... it does...

you really don't have any idea what you are talking about, do you?

welcome to my world.....just because I say it does not mean I believe in (hyprocrite...no). The only thing I believe in is trying out things that I have not seen happen, such as the dual center channel and find out what would happen. Torqdog has the speakers and I would love to have him do the setup and get first hand reviews from him.
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post #94 of 369 Old 03-25-2012, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you really want to try this, set them up with one above the screen and one below the screen. The benefit is that the "image" will be centered between them, and in the middle of the screen, right were the actors mouths usually are. You'll have the net effect of a speaker behind the screen, which is otherwise impossible without an acoustically transparent screen. You'll still have some comb-filtering effect, and some timbre mis-match, especially off-axis, but you'll at least have the benefit of a more appropriately perceived central image.

Do NOT set them next to each other or one on top the other.


You could build a riser for your seating.

Craig

I love this idea....+1
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post #95 of 369 Old 03-25-2012, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you really want to try this, set them up with one above the screen and one below the screen. The benefit is that the "image" will be centered between them, and in the middle of the screen, right were the actors mouths usually are. You'll have the net effect of a speaker behind the screen, which is otherwise impossible without an acoustically transparent screen. You'll still have some comb-filtering effect, and some timbre mis-match, especially off-axis, but you'll at least have the benefit of a more appropriately perceived central image.

Great idea....... never gave that one any consideration. Shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish either. And the fact that the PSB C5 is meant to work in a horizontal config, it would fit perfectly above the TV. Do you think that it indeed might be a workable idea to get two C5 centers, one on top, one below? It should in effect eliminate any timbre mismatch problems. Would the comb-filtering effect be lessened with two identical centers positioned this way? C5 centers seem to be fairly easily aquired for less than $150.00

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You could build a riser for your seating.

Craig

Yeah, I did give that some thought and it may indeed be the way I go down the road. Wifey likes the idea. Thanks!

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post #96 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

welcome to my world.....just because I say it does not mean I believe in (hyprocrite...no). The only thing I believe in is trying out things that I have not seen happen, such as the dual center channel and find out what would happen. Torqdog has the speakers and I would love to have him do the setup and get first hand reviews from him.

It has already been tried by so many people and the unanimous verdict is that it doesnt work. Sure one could try other options like putting one above and one below.

It is not mandatory that all 3 speakers of the front stage be identical. That is in an ideal world. One could use a bookshelf version of the towers as a center channel. This way the TV will not be too high. This would be much less work than putting the center speaker above and below the TV or making a riser for the seats.

Also older tower speakers like the Klipsch KG4.2 that I have are much shorter than the newer slim, tall ones. So the TV will not be too high. Now I have a front projector. When the bulb dies (it is at 5700+ hours, touch wood), I will put my 46" TV on a taller stand. I bought the 12" extension rods for my Sanus shelf to raise the TV to clear the KG4.2. A cheap and simple solution.
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post #97 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you really want to try this, set them up with one above the screen and one below the screen.

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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Great idea....... never gave that one any consideration.

Really????

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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

If you try it I would go the 'over/under' route. Two speakers, side by side, even if identical, even oriented vertically, is not a very good idea. And straddling your screen is probably really asking for issues.



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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Would the comb-filtering effect be lessened with two identical centers positioned this way?

There would be no lobing/comb filtering between the two speakers in the horizontal plane if they vertically straddled your screen. The lobing/comb filtering that might be associated with each individual speaker's output would still occur. Would the two different speakers' individual lobing/comb filtering patterns possibly compensate for one anothers' and somehow eliminate the effect? That's doubtful. If they are aligned, vertically, the lobing/comb filtering patterns would be expected to be identical, only in different planes.

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post #98 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 09:12 AM
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Allright

keep us updated Torqdog on your over/under, _|_, T, | | configurations

Additionally, I would love you to stack the center channels on one other, and angling the bottom one to the right by 15 degrees, and the top one to the left 15 degrees.
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post #99 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish either. And the fact that the PSB C5 is meant to work in a horizontal config, it would fit perfectly above the TV.

BTW, I recommended that you try a single speaker, even if it meant horizontally, ABOVE the TV, earlier in the thread, as well.

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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Granted, we do not really know enough about your layout, room, and specific placement, but I think that, generally, you would get better performance with the speaker positioned above your screen, as opposed to below, even if that means it would have to be oriented horizontally.


So, if that can be accomplished as easily as it seems it can, you should have already tried it with the B&W.

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post #100 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 09:27 AM
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saw this from Paradigm...what a crazy center channel speaker.

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post #101 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

...what a crazy center channel speaker.

Why?

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post #102 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Why?

based upon what I learn from you folks, this is a prime candidate for lobing and combing.
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post #103 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

based upon what I learn from you folks, this is a prime candidate for lobing and combing.

No, it isn't. It is a 3-way (or more?) speaker. So, there will be no midrange lobing between the 4 woofers. Even though it does have dual, horizontally-arrayed midrange drivers, they are located close enough to one another that any lobing/comb filtering that might occur between them is likely not an issue.

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post #104 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

BTW, I recommended that you try a single speaker, even if it meant horizontally, ABOVE the TV, earlier in the thread, as well.

Yeah and I didn't really give it much consideration because.............

Quote:


So, if that can be accomplished as easily as it seems it can, you should have already tried it with the B&W.

............... I had already tried it with the B&W. Where-as there was an ever so slight improvement compared to it's resting below the TV in a horizontal config, it wasn't enough of a difference as compared to the marked improvement realized when I aligned the 2 1/2 way B&W in a vertical format below the TV. Like I had stated earlier, I've tried just about everything under the Sun with different positions et-al. Hence my reasoning that it's really simply a matter of a too wimpy center for my room.

I will add that I've really enjoyed all the differing opinions here. Even though you all seem at times to have gotten on each other's nerves, it has been a learning experience for me and I think that all else aside, isn't that what these forums are all about in the first place?

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post #105 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Even though you all seem at times to have gotten on each other's nerves..........

Nooooooo. Us?

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post #106 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

... Hence my reasoning that it's really simply a matter of a too wimpy center for my room.

I will add that I've really enjoyed all the differing opinions here. Even though you all seem at times to have gotten on each other's nerves, it has been a learning experience for me and I think that all else aside, isn't that what these forums are all about in the first place?

I have enjoyed it as well...

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Nooooooo. Us?

+1
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post #107 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

No, it isn't. It is a 3-way (or more?) speaker. So, there will be no midrange lobing between the 4 woofers. Even though it does have dual, horizontally-arrayed midrange drivers, they are located close enough to one another that any lobing/comb filtering that might occur between them is likely not an issue.

so the distance between the speakers is important to eliminate lobing/combing/hairdrying, etc

That I can understand because probably the frequency that will be affected and perceived will be the one that matches the distance between the mid/woofers.

but if getting them close is a good answer, why keep the mid/woofers separate? Keep them together.
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post #108 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

so the distance between the speakers is important to eliminate lobing/combing/hairdrying, etc

That I can understand because probably the frequency that will be affected and perceived will be the one that matches the distance between the mid/woofers.

Yes, the distance between the speakers is related to what frequencies are affected as well as the degree and nature of the lobing/comb filtering.


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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

but if getting them close is a good answer, why keep the mid/woofers separate? Keep them together.

A "good answer" to what, exactly? What are you asking, chikoo? Why does that speaker that you pictured have 2 midrange drivers? Why do horizontal MTMs have 2 midwoofers? Why aren't the midwoofers closer together on MTMs? What?

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post #109 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Yes, the distance between the speakers is related to what frequencies are affected as well as the degree and nature of the lobing/comb filtering.


A "good answer" to what, exactly? What are you asking, chikoo? Why does that speaker that you pictured have 2 midrange drivers? Why do horizontal MTMs have 2 midwoofers? Why aren't the midwoofers closer together on MTMs? What?

My question is:

IF the Paradigm center channel aims to solve the problem of lobing by keeping the multiple midrange and mid-woofers either next to each other or at extreme ends, then why do other manufacturers do not follow that same process?

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post #110 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

IF the Paradigm center channel aims to solve the problem of lobing by keeping the multiple midrange and mid-woofers either next to each other or at extreme ends, then why do other manufacturers do not follow that same process?

That center speaker's design doesn't really explicitly aim to solve any problems. It just completely sidesteps them altogether. And there is no lobing/comb filtering at any relevant frequencies between the woofers in that speaker, so that there are 4 woofers, with 2 next to one another, on each end, is not really relevant.

The lobing/comb filtering that is of concern with horizontal speakers is that which is occurring in the critical midrange frequencies. Center channel speakers reproduce dialog. And the midrange frequencies are particularly important for that dialog's intelligibility.

If the midrange frequencies in a horizontal speaker are produced by a single, dedicated midrange driver (i.e. a 3-way speaker), then no lobing/comb filtering can occur in the midrange frequencies. Right? And, even if there are two separate midrange drivers, as in the speaker pictured, as long as they are close enough together, then the lobing/comb filtering that might occur between them is negligible. But, as you may have noticed, Paradigm's current 3-way (or more?) center channel speaker offerings only have a single midrange driver.

The reason so many horizontal center channel speakers are 2-way MTMs is probably because that is the cheapest and most practical route for many manufacturers (and consumers, btw). And even though the horizontal design is more easily accommodated than a vertical speaker in the center spot by most people, not everyone can accommodate a LARGE speaker like the one you pictured in their center spot. Many people don't just require a horizontal speaker in the center spot, but they require a SMALL horizontal speaker in their center spot.

There are still ways to minimize or alleviate the midrange lobing/comb filtering that occurs in a standard 2-way MTM as well as enhance other aspects of these speakers' performance when used in the compromised, horizontal orientation and many manufacturers' horizontal MTMs do incorporate such features. Still, many do not, and that, again, probably comes down to a matter of practicality and cost.

But what you are asking is sort of like asking "why don't all the subwoofers that manufacturers offer us have a flat response down to 15Hz?".

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post #111 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 02:18 PM
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so the new offerings do indeed have only one mid-range, and not the 2 shown in the earlier models. Case of lesson learnt?

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post #112 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Case of lesson learnt?

What lesson?


BTW, even though there are some shared acoustic principles involved, midrange lobing in horizontal MTMs is not really directly relevant to what this thread is about. This thread is about the use of 2 speakers on the single center channel. There would be issues involved with using even two vertical 2-way bookshelf speakers to do that. This is not about horizontal center channel speakers.

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post #113 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 02:26 PM
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that 2 midranges are not necessarily going to solve the center channel problem, and that one basic bookshelf type design is what would be the most optimal? Because in essence that is what all of the current center channels from Paradigm look like. A Single bookshelf flanked by woofers, no matter if it is the value line or the reference line or the highest price does not matter line.









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post #114 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

There are still ways to minimize or alleviate the midrange lobing/comb filtering that occurs in a standard 2-way MTM as well as enhance other aspects of these speakers' performance when used in the compromised, horizontal orientation and many manufacturers' horizontal MTMs do incorporate such features. Still, many do not, and that, again, probably comes down to a matter of practicality and cost.

What steps can a speaker manufacturer do to minimize midrange lobing/comb filtering that occurs in a standard 2-way MTM? I have a Salk SongCenter and it sounds great to me in my system with no dialog intelligibility issues.

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post #115 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

that 2 midranges are not necessarily going to solve the center channel problem

Why do you think that the two midrange drivers in the speaker in your picture are there to solve "the center channel problem"? And wth is "the center channel problem", in your mind, anyway?

I don't know what the design reasoning behind that speaker being equipped with two side-by-side midrange drivers might have been. Probably was the best way to get that amount of driver surface area into that space without having to increase the height of the speaker. It likely had nothing at all to do with midrange lobing/comb filtering.


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............and that one basic bookshelf type design is what would be the most optimal? Because in essence that is what all of the current center channels from Paradigm look like. A Single bookshelf flanked by woofers............

Why does everything have to be some sort of mutated version of a bookshelf speaker to you? You could say that a 2-way tower speaker is nothing but a tall version of a bookshelf speaker, too. Or that a 3-way tower speaker is just a bookshelf speaker with a woofer attached to the bottom. And the point would be what? That there are only a few speaker arrangements that will work? Those speakers are all horizontal 3-way speakers with a vertically-arrayed tweeter and midrange driver flanked by woofers. And............?

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post #116 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 02:52 PM
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because in reality they indeed are what I describe them as. No other way to describe them.
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post #117 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

What steps can a speaker manufacturer do to minimize midrange lobing/comb filtering that occurs in a standard 2-way MTM? I have a Salk SongCenter and it sounds great to me in my system with no dialog intelligibility issues.

There are several. I already mentioned most of these earlier in the thread.

1. Placing the midwoofers as close as possible to one another. This usually involves an offset tweeter, too, which can also provide some benefits for the horizontal speaker's performance as well. The trade-off here is that it might require smaller drivers or increased speaker height.

2. A lowered crossover point between the midwoofers and tweeter than might otherwise be used. This moves at least some of the midrange frequencies that would be subject to lobing into the single tweeter. The trade-off here is that the tweeter may not be the best place to reproduce these particular frequencies. A manufacturer that was serious about incorporating this design feature would probably assure that the tweeter they utilized was up to the task.

3. Although no longer technically a 2-way speaker, many manufacturers offer 2.5-way MTM designs where both midwoofers reproduce the lowest frequencies but only one of the midwoofers operates through the critical midrange frequencies.

4. Although not an MTM, a plain toppled MT speaker is sometimes used. As well as coincidentally arrayed 2-way designs.

5. Also not a 2-way MTM, a 3-way speaker with a dedicated midrange driver sidesteps the issue altogether.


I'm sure I have not covered them all, here.



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I have a Salk SongCenter and it sounds great to me in my system with no dialog intelligibility issues.

OK.

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post #118 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

There are several. I already mentioned most of these earlier in the thread.

1. Placing the midwoofers as close as possible to one another. This usually involves an offset tweeter, too, which can also provide some benefits for the horizontal speaker's performance as well. The trade-off here is that it might require smaller drivers or increased speaker height.

2. A lowered crossover point between the midwoofers and tweeter than might otherwise be used. This moves at least some of the midrange frequencies that would be subject to lobing into the single tweeter. The trade-off here is that the tweeter may not be the best place to reproduce these particular frequencies. A manufacturer that was serious about incorporating this design feature would probably assure that the tweeter they utilized was up to the task.

3. Although no longer technically a 2-way speaker, many manufacturers offer 2.5-way MTM designs where both midwoofers reproduce the lowest frequencies but only one of the midwoofers operates through the critical midrange frequencies.

4. Although not an MTM, a plain toppled MT speaker is sometimes used. As well as coincidentally arrayed 2-way designs.

5. Also not a 2-way MTM, a 3-way speaker with a dedicated midrange driver sidesteps the issue altogether.


I'm sure I have not covered them all, here.

Thanks for your thoughts! I would think the design team at Salk took all the issues of an horizontal MTM design into consideration when they designed the SongCenter.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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post #119 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 03:33 PM
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I have a pair of speakers that I use in the bedroom that use dual center speakers.

Each speaker uses active crossovers, has an active "subwoofer" as well as a center channel speaker that is "toed in" behind the speaker grill. No problems at all with the sound of two center speakers with this setup. Surrounds also run off of the system.






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post #120 of 369 Old 03-26-2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

There are several. I already mentioned most of these earlier in the thread.

I'm sure I have not covered them all, here.




Here is a picture of a 3 way WMTW. It can be used in a vertical or horizontal orientation.




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