Running 2 separate Speakers off a single output (center channel) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

lol...

but, we should tread carefully, after all, he IS a "man of science"...

nooooo....if you do that who shall I beat up?
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post #182 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Well, I finally received my matching PSB Stratus C5 center and was able to do some evaluating. Positioned in front of the TV stand at maximum height just below the TV's display area so as to best compliment the Stratus Silver mains and set in a horizontal aspect, I played various problematic soundtracks and a couple concert blurays. First thing that was apparent right off the bat was how it seemed more responsive and using the dbl meter I found that it indeed runs 2 decibels louder than the B&W it replaced. Anyway, with the system balanced my impressions were one of surprise seeing that the drivers on the PSB are much smaller than those on the B&W.

We started by watching the first 20 minutes of Flyboys which has always presented problems understanding dialog with the french accents. No problem, everything came through crystal clear and was easily understood. We then went on to Last of the Mohicans and even Wifey was surprised as we've always had to run subtitles on this one. Not this time as even with the heavy english accents scattered throughout, dialog was present and quite intelligible. Then I popped in the Peter Jackson version of King Kong. This movie has always presented problems with dialog between Driscoll and Darrow in their quieter scenes on the ship. Again, problem solved. Dialog was crisp and understandable.

The only negative I have towards this PSB center probably lies in the fact that it's smaller drivers tend to make it sound a little more shallow(is that a usable term here?) than the B&W. But just the fact that dialog has taken on a whole new level has made my experimentin enthusiasm for two centers lessen for now. I now know that all this time, my problem was probably found in the fact that I had a mismatched center. Also, I'm thinking that part of the problem could also lie in the rear port aspect of the B&W which quite possibly was causing reflection/resonance issues with the TV stand but I'm not the engineer here. All I know is that the front ported, smaller driver PSB seems to have corrected a long standing problem and I will now be searching for the Stratus C6, the bigger brother to the C5.

so you are not going to test out the dual speaker setup I presume.
But I am happy that the new speaker has solved your issues. But what confounds me is that B&W has such a product which would not work properly in a common room setup. Goes to show how every speaker is once again a compromise and you never know how it will perform in your room, with your furniture regardless of all the science to make it good under their test environment.
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post #183 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by romohater View Post

I ran 2 sony sattelite spkrs (4ohms each) off the same center channel and they sounded much better than just the 1. Ended up getting a polk cs10 and I love it. Otherwise I got a polk audio csr center spkr I'll let go for $100.

One more practical experiment is a success.

C'mon guys, what will it take to convince you that science is only half the story? It can only go so far because there is absolutely no way we can determine all the variables that exist in that room. We can only indicate what might happen under ideal conditions, but most rooms are never in the ideal conditions, nor the expectations of the listener.
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post #184 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:04 PM
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On 2011-05-30 19:10, mykyll2727 wrote:
I recently did some experimenting with dual center channel speakers. Currently I've been using a SS-CNK10ED for my ctr but I have two SS-K10EDs that have just been sitting. Originally I was using them as speakers for a 2ch system in the spare bedroom. But about a year ago I replaced them with a pair of truly outstanding bookshelves that I got from a friend that wasn't using them. (They are a pair of bookshelves, Hologram Acoustic Technology's Phantom 5.0s. with matching stands.) I tried the K10s at various height postions at either end of my 73" display and above and below. I tried some different levels on the below too. I also tried one K10 above and the CNK10 below. The above position took a little creativity as I don't have an actual mount designed for it. But I did find a metal shelf with a brace that worked well enough. I also tried two different connections. One was to run a cable from one speaker to anothe, the method I use for my subs, and the other was to piggy-back the signal by bi-wiring with use of stackable bananas. I found the second method seemed to produce a slightly better sound. I did not attempt to bi-amp from my Verastarr SSA-644 power amp which I use for my mains, SRs and SRBacks, but I did bi-amp, with the use of a rca splitter, from my Carver Model M-4.0t power amp which is what I use in bridged mode for my ctr ch anyway. What I found sounded best which somewhat surprised me was the bi-wire setup not the bi-amp. Perhaps because of in the bi-wire setup the amp was bridged.

When placed on the outside I found that the ctr's soundstage was huge. Too big in fact for my tastes as it blurred with the mains. The sweetspot was huge (nice for movies as the viewing position could be quite varied) but again the sound was blurred. Clarity, focus, imaging all suffered as opposed to a single speaker in the ctr position. I should add that the normal position for the ctr is below the display on a shelf of the TV stand. In the above and below position there actually seemed to be better focus and clarity over the single speaker. Sounds and particularly voices were crisper and cleaner on both movies and music. This was with the two K10s. With the CNK/K10ED setup the results were the same with added weight and a wider sweetspot over the two K10s. I think this is probably due to the horizontal array of the CNK and it's additional mid driver. The sound was fuller, crisper and better focused with K10 placed above the CNK than with the CNK alone. I also found the differences to be more noticeable on movies than music. On music the improvements were more subtle but I still felt that there was an overall improvement on MCH SACD.

My conclusions were that the above and below dual speaker arramgement was enough of an improvement to merit my going to a permanent setup. I feel that vocals on both movies and music benefitted the most and overall that there was a greater improvement with movies than music. Obviously with tweaks such as a better support for the above speaker and better directionality of the speaker/speakers along with some vibration control I will be able to produce even better results. I would recommend that anyone interested in a dual ctr channel setup give it a try. It might work for you as well._mykl

http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic....51&topic=38914

This person tried a above and below and made it permanent setup.

Blashphemous. How could he do it?
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post #185 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

nooooo....if you do that who shall I beat up?

Mommy!


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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

C'mon guys, what will it take to convince you that science is only half the story?

I don't need to get in the bathtub with the toaster to know that it is probably not a good idea.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #186 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:15 PM
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This is awesome... a 12" driver...

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post #187 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

This person tried a above and below and made it permanent setup.

Blashphemous. How could he do it?

You can DO whatever YOU want to do, chikoo. But when someone comes here asking for answers to a specific question, that can be answered on a scientific basis, that is what many of us, here, try to provide. As you pointed out, opinions are worthless.

If you look back at how this thread started, it didn't turn to crap until certain people (hint hint) tried to insert their uninformed OPINIONS. The initial answers were pretty straight-forward. And in fact, no one said he couldn't do it. Only that it was probably a bad idea. In my response, I even went on to tell him how to wire the dual speakers.

BTW, your talking smack to Dennis Erskine was pretty funny.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #188 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Mommy!


I don't need to get in the bathtub with the toaster to know that it is probably not a good idea.

You are assuming:

1. There is water in the bath-tub
2. The toaster is connected to an electrical outlet

see you did not know all the variables in your experiment.
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post #189 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

This is awesome... a 12" driver...


It's also a very reasonable looking center channel solution for someone who can't accommodate a matching tower in their center spot.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #190 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

You can DO whatever YOU want to do, chikoo. But when someone comes here asking for answers to a specific question, that can be answered on a scientific basis, that is what many of us, here, try to provide. A you pointed out, opinions are worthless.

If you look back at how this thread started, it didn't turn to crap until certain people (hint hint) tried to insert their uninformed OPINIONS. The initial answers were pretty straight-forward. And in fact, no one said he couldn't do it. Only that it was probably a bad idea. In my response, I even went on to tell him how to wire the dual speakers.

BTW, your talking smack to Dennis Erskine was pretty funny.

I do tend to poke a bit...gets the juices flowing...pushes back to the drawing board.

Dang, my secret is out.

Who is Dennis? I am sorry. I know nobody in this field. Too new to this field, and I did not even pay any attention to who the poster is/was. Just posted responses back to where I thought I could nudge some information out.
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post #191 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

You can DO whatever YOU want to do, chikoo. But when someone comes here asking for answers to a specific question, that can be answered on a scientific basis, that is what many of us, here, try to provide. As you pointed out, opinions are worthless.

If you look back at how this thread started, it didn't turn to crap until certain people (hint hint) tried to insert their uninformed OPINIONS. The initial answers were pretty straight-forward. And in fact, no one said he couldn't do it. Only that it was probably a bad idea. In my response, I even went on to tell him how to wire the dual speakers.

I know you suggested the over/under setup and was real happy that finally somebody is going to actually try out a new setup. One that I have no experience with.
But then, all of a sudden, the thread turned into that the very idea is blasphemous. That is what got me riled up.
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post #192 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

That is what got me riled up.

Well, this particular topic is nothing to get riled up about. There is nothing at all that is vague, ambiguous, equivocal, or unsettled about it.

ported vs. sealed
monopole vs. bipole vs. dipole
soft dome vs. metal dome
bookshelf vs. tower
2-way vs. 3-way

These are things you can still get riled up about. They, generally, involve an opinion.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #193 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:35 PM
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[quote=chikoo;21844056]
Quote:


I do tend to poke a bit...gets the juices flowing...pushes back to the drawing board. Dang, my secret is out.

Isn't that referred to as trolling?

Quote:


Who is Dennis? I am sorry. I know nobody in this field. Too new to this field, and I did not even pay any attention to who the poster is/was. Just posted responses back to where I thought I could nudge some information out.

Maybe if you looked at some of Dennis' posts that you responded to starting with post #13 you would know his capabilities and expertise. His credentials are right in his signature. It might help to pay attention to someone like Dennis when they post as you might learn a thing or two. Your objective might be to "nudge" out some information which is not a bad thing. The key is whether or not you want to listen to that information from someone as knowledgable as Dennis.

Bill

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post #194 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:37 PM
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[quote=Bill Mac;21844114]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


Isn't that referred to as trolling?



Maybe if you looked at some of Dennis' posts that you responded to starting with post #13 you would know his capabilities and expertise. His credentials are right in his signature. It might help you to pay attention to someone like Dennis when they post as you might learn a thing or two. You objective might be to "nudge" out some information which is not a bad thing. The key is whether or not you want to listen to that information from someone as knowledgable as Dennis.

Bill

Trolling is harsh. I am here to stay, not poke and run away.
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post #195 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:40 PM
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[quote=chikoo;21844122]
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post


Trolling is harsh. I am here to stay, not poke and run away.

Not really IMO. Whats the difference if you poke and stay or poke and run off?

Bill

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post #196 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

I do tend to poke a bit...gets the juices flowing...pushes back to the drawing board.

There's nothing wrong with being provocative, here, if it pushes the discussion in a useful direction. In this instance, though, it seems it was simply for the sake of pushing buttons.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #197 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

There's nothing wrong with being provocative, here, if it pushes the discussion in a useful direction. In this instance, though, it seems it was simply for the sake of pushing buttons.

I agree and that is why are commented as I did.

Bill

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post #198 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

...and just what would be the point ... to waste time ... hearing the difference will not (a) fix the problem; (b) tell him what the problem is; (c) provide understanding.

A single center channel should not result in dialog intelligibility problems. When such a problem exists, something is broken. Anything from a decoding error, processing error, broken speaker, to bad speaker position. Adding a second speaker and making the problem louder is not a fix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Unfortunately, Dave, this is not dogma. He has a problem. The resolution to the problem is not to make it worse. As was said, this is not an impedance issue. This is a dialog intelligibility issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Go for it dude.
Don't just listen to "experts". Engineering is practical, not theoretical. In fact all theories were developed from practical experiments like yours. Keep us updated. From what I can imagine, it will be a huge success.

An inverted T or will it be a regular T?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

You can DO whatever YOU want to do, chikoo. But when someone comes here asking for answers to a specific question, that can be answered on a scientific basis, that is what many of us, here, try to provide. As you pointed out, opinions are worthless.

If you look back at how this thread started, it didn't turn to crap until certain people (hint hint) tried to insert their uninformed OPINIONS. The initial answers were pretty straight-forward. And in fact, no one said he couldn't do it. Only that it was probably a bad idea. In my response, I even went on to tell him how to wire the dual speakers.

BTW, your talking smack to Dennis Erskine was pretty funny.

Hmm...I did not talk smack back to Dennis. It was a lot later after the interjections by other experts later on that I smacked "experts" in general.

To that point, Dennis did mention that the problem could lie elsewhere, and not the speaker. Not bad. That was good thinking.

But I was definitely more interested in seeing if the 2 speakers would make any difference or not.
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post #199 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

There's nothing wrong with being provocative, here, if it pushes the discussion in a useful direction. In this instance, though, it seems it was simply for the sake of pushing buttons.

I wanted the experiment done. That is all.
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post #200 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 01:01 PM
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[quote=Bill Mac;21844138]
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


Not really IMO. Whats the difference if you poke and stay or poke and run off?

Bill

I was treading a thin line back then. I agree.
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post #201 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 01:14 PM
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Found this on Polk Audio...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...l=1#post219043

Good explanation of what will work and what will not work, on the same lines as Siva's recommendation.

Quote:


Hi DKG,

I've also recently started experimenting with dual centers and have also been pleased with the results.

However, getting back to your question I believe the concerns center (pardon the pun) around comb filtering. Comb filtering results when there is a delay between two identical signals reaching the listerner. These delays don't just cause cancellations, they cause both reinforcement and cancellation of the signal depending on the amount of the delay. These changes to the original signal are called Comb Filtering Distortion.

With horizontally spaced center speakers people sitting off axis will always experience a delay because the distance to the two center speakers is different. With vertically stacked center channel speakers it is possible to locate the primary listening position equidistant from both speakers so there is no delay. In addition, listeners sitting off axis will still be equidistant from both center channel speakers therefore they shouldn't be effected by comb filtering distortion.

An other problem with horizontally spaced center channel speakers is that listeners sitting off axis will not hear the sounds coming from the correct location. For example, suppose you are watching a movie and the actor is centered on the screen. The correct location for the actor's dialog would be in the center on the soundstage. A listener sitting on axis would hear the the sound coming from the center of the soundstage because the two speakers would be producing a centered phantom sonic image. However, someone sitting off axis would hear the sounds coming from the closer center speaker. Since the speaker is not centered the listener will not hear the sound coming from the correct location. If the speakers are widely spaced this off-axis discrepency could be significant.

This problem doesn't occur for vertically stacked center channel speakers that are centered above and below a display. The phantom sonic image will always be centered regardless of where the listeners are seated in the room.

Well, I'm just responding to your question under which circumstances dual centers might not be a good idea. However, if you're enjoying yourself all this theory really doesn't matter anyhow does it?

Larry

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post #202 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

so you are not going to test out the dual speaker setup I presume.

No, I didn't say that...... just that the experimentin' enthusiasm has diminished allot. I may still try it out this weekend just for the sake of a hands on experience with what all has been bandied about here and also I'll do it just for you since you seem eager for this experiment to commence.
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

But I am happy that the new speaker has solved your issues. But what confounds me is that B&W has such a product which would not work properly in a common room setup. Goes to show how every speaker is once again a compromise and you never know how it will perform in your room, with your furniture regardless of all the science to make it good under their test environment.

Well, it obviously didn't work well in my environment. That's not to say that it is a bad speaker or that it wouldn't work in another room, just not mine. Again, I seriously think allot of the problem had to do with the rear port interacting with my TV stand which is right behind the center speak. The PSB is a front port design and that alone could be why I'm hearing a much crisper presentation now. Also, the PSB Stratus drivers are of a higher quality IMHO than those found on the B&W 600 line and that was clearly evidenced when I switched out my DM 605 S2s for the Stratus Silvers. The sound quality difference was day and night and I think the centers from each line reflect those same qualities.

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post #203 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

I may still try it out this weekend just for the sake of a hands on experience with what all has been bandied about here and also I'll do it just for you since you seem eager for this experiment to commence.

wear protective gear

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #204 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

It's also a very reasonable looking center channel solution for someone who can't accommodate a matching tower in their center spot.

Or blind.

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post #205 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

No, I didn't say that...... just that the experimentin' enthusiasm has diminished allot. I may still try it out this weekend just for the sake of a hands on experience with what all has been bandied about here and also I'll do it just for you since you seem eager for this experiment to commence.

Well, it obviously didn't work well in my environment. That's not to say that it is a bad speaker or that it wouldn't work in another room, just not mine. Again, I seriously think allot of the problem had to do with the rear port interacting with my TV stand which is right behind the center speak. The PSB is a front port design and that alone could be why I'm hearing a much crisper presentation now. Also, the PSB Stratus drivers are of a higher quality IMHO than those found on the B&W 600 line and that was clearly evidenced when I switched out my DM 605 S2s for the Stratus Silvers. The sound quality difference was day and night and I think the centers from each line reflect those same qualities.

thanks torqdog :-):

I'd love to know how it works.if you just stack one on top of the other and then swivel them 5-15 degrees left and right.
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post #206 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

In this instance, though, it seems it was simply for the sake of pushing buttons.

And, I would add, with some juvenile-like glee.

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post #207 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

And, I would add, with some juvenile-like glee.

I am young at heart....what can i say
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post #208 of 369 Old 03-29-2012, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

thanks torqdog :-):

I'd love to know how it works.if you just stack one on top of the other and then swivel them 5-15 degrees left and right.

Yeah, I'll try that but I am most intrigued by the idea presented earlier of an "above and below" the TV arrangement. And yeah, I WILL wear protective gear"! LOL

He (or she) who dies with the most HT gear doesn't win anything. They're DEAD!
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post #209 of 369 Old 03-30-2012, 05:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

blissful ignorance > fashionable ignorance > willful ignorance > STUPIDITY

blissful ignorance > fashionable ignorance > willful ignorance > STUPIDITY > ignoring how things sound and saying charts are the end all
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post #210 of 369 Old 03-30-2012, 05:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

So, just for some clarification, according to the Paradigm website, the black bass drivers on that Millenia 20 Trio are not connected to the center channel unit. They are only connected to the left and right speaker units. And the low-end spec on the whole unit is 80Hz, so who knows how low the center unit, alone, is capable of going. Perhaps this is the main reason you perceive the left and right speakers to sound better than the center unit, on its own. I suspect you would find the left or right speaker unit, alone, to also sound better than the center unit, on its own.


That is what it looked like to me. The two side speakers have more bass, and it plays nicely into better sounding dialog.
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