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post #1 of 32 Old 03-22-2012, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I am at war with myself. I know there are other threads that mention this and that I've asked this before. I'm was looking at the Paradigm S8's, and now the Aerial 7T's, and I keep getting side tracked with the JTR Triple 12LF's. I want the fidelity for music of a speaker such as the Aerial Acoustics 7T, but at the same time I want to be able to play movies at reference level, without any clipping/distortion or strain. Now I keep hearing the sound quality of the JTR's are fantastic with great dynamics, huge sound stage, fantastic imaging and mid-range etc, but the design of the speaker is what keeps me fighting with myself. I just can't help associate high efficiency speakers with compression drivers as speakers with high SPL in mind FIRST, sound quality second. I don't care about looks, or size, but I do care about sound, and that's about it. I like to listen to all types of music, and I want the micro-details in all their transparency and clarity that I read speakers such as the Aerial 7T's are capable of doing, with a super crystal clear mid-range, sounding natural and real with no audible coloration from cabinet resonance.



I simply have to hear these JTR speakers to see if they have the same fidelity s the S8's or 7T's, just with the added efficiency and power handling. The amp I will be using with whatever speakers I get will be the Outlaw 7900. Someone that has heard both the JTR and a true audiophile speaker such as the Aerial 7T and/or Paradigm S8, PLEASE give me your honest thoughts on sound quality, between the two, and on sound quality only, not SPL. I know the JTR's can go so loud, that they blow women's clothes off, but I really want that fidelity for 2 channel listening as well. I'm 50/50 home theater and music.

PS. I'm familiar with PA speakers as I do mobile DJ work on the side. I'm very used to compression drivers adding a sort of artificial "edge" to them at some frequencies. And I know there's always trade off's in this hobby, so I'm thinking high SPL and efficiency just HAS to be at the expense of something other then looks/size. Especially since I can get 3 Triple 12's for the price of one Aerial 7T.


*I spelled "Advice" wrong in the title, my apologies*
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post #2 of 32 Old 03-22-2012, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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*BUMP* before this thread gets banished to the second page. Hopefully someone with a super critical audiophile ear will chime in and able to compare the Triple 12's to audiophile speakers such as the S8 or 7T
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post #3 of 32 Old 03-22-2012, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I sent Jeff an e-mail..... If everybody that assured me I'd be blown away by these speakers, KNOWING my expectations for music, were right, then all I need is an audition to seal the deal. If I like what I hear, I may be the happy owner of the Triple 12HT's. Hopefully Jeff responds, I asked him if there is anybody near Long Island that owns the Triple 12HT's that is willing to give me an audition.
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post #4 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Anybody? I know sound is subjective, but being able to audition has proven to be the hardest damn thing about this whole hobby. I'm just looking for a good, honest comparison about the JTR Triple 12HT's vs. a typical audiophile speaker. Comparison being sound quality wise, not looks, or SPL (clearly the JTR is the SPL champion).
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post #5 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 04:08 PM
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Ok, it kills me to see you as the only poster in your thread, so I'll give you my advice.

I have been looking for exactly what you are for quite some time now and have done considerable research to find a design I felt will give me that "best of both worlds" SQ. I believe it exists, but when it comes right down to it there is as much, or more, subjectivity than objectivity when it comes to declaring a speaker capable of this apparent dichotomy. The SPL is the relatively easy parameter to determine. It's when we get to dynamics that it gets harder and more subjective, and then when we get to SQ it becomes intensely personal.

One thing is for sure, your decision will be much easier if you can determine your order of priorities. For example, I know that however good a speaker might sound at low volumes, if it doesn't have great dynamics at or near reference level I want nothing to do with it. For me, a speaker must be capable of performing cleanly and effortlessly at all volumes that I may EVER want to listen. That pretty much narrows the field to very few speakers at ANY price point. But that doesn't mean I don't want superb SQ, it just means that the speaker must first clear that hurdle for consideration. You need to determine YOUR hurdle.

As you know, auditioning speakers is not always an easy task and, as well, it is hard to evaluate a speaker without direct A/B listening tests. So much of my research has been into looking at speaker designs and measurements(not just on axis FR, but polars/wavelets, distortion plots, etc.), and then listener impressions, to determine what speakers are likely up to the task. Keep in mind, however, that all speaker designs have comprimise somewhere. But knowing design allows you to understand the comprimise so the deficiencies are somewhere you care less about. Although I have run across what appear to be essentially "no comprimise" designs, not one of them has been under 20K(Triad Platinums as one example).

So, I have a short list of speakers that I believe have the characteristics you're looking for and would suggest you at least look into them since I believe you would be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't. I'm sure there are probably many more, but these are the ones on my short list and are all exceptionally designed. They're in no particular order and vary a bit in price, but all are likely far less than the "audiophile" speakers your considering and all those on my list would, IMO, match or beat them in SQ(subjective!!) and totally embarass them for HT. Danley, for example will let you schlep ANY speaker you want to their facility and they will hook them up so you can A/B against their speakers. That's confidence! And of the reports I've seen from folks that have done it they end up with Danley's for the ride home

Wayne Parham's 4Pi http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/pr...roducts_id/105

Danley Sound Labs SH50 http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/syner...?model=SH%2050

Seaton Sound Catalyst http://www.seatonsound.net/ - Uses the same coaxial design as the JTR's but utilize active crossovers

Gedlee Loudspeakers Summa http://www.gedlee.com/ - Now offered with active crossovers!, Sweet!!

And last, but not least(because it's what I'm building), a 2-way DIY design utilizing the AVS community designed 15" SEOS waveguide http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291022, the B&C DE250 CD(or better), and the awesome AE TD15M driver with active crossovers.

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post #6 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 04:21 PM
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I'm going to assume you are only interested in listening to music through these speakers?
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post #7 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

I'm going to assume you are only interested in listening to music through these speakers?

Negative (see below):


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I want the fidelity for music of a speaker such as the Aerial Acoustics 7T, but at the same time I want to be able to play movies at reference level, without any clipping/distortion or strain.

Every time this topic pops up it becomes a long drawn out debate with no one being 100% correct in the end; perhaps that's why hardly anyone has posted. Without starting flames, I'll say this: if you want reference levels a non-high efficiency speaker won't cut it. Whether you think they sound good enough for music is something only you can decide. We all have our opinions about that one, and they likely aren't going to change anytime soon. However, that does nothing to help you out, so you really need to decide for yourself. I hope you can find a local owner to have you over for an audition. Even better, make him bring those bad boys to your house.

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post #8 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE RESPONSE!!!! lol. I'll look into all those speakers you mentioned. I am familiar with Danley being in the Pro Audio field with mobile DJ-ing and know they are regarded as near the absolute top of pro audio speakers. I hear mobile DJ's rave about their TH-118 tapped horn subs. It's just funny that something that is so subjective is so hard to see/hear for yourself.

My hurdle is a tough one. I need sound quality to even want to play it loud, and I want to play it loud, but only if it sounds good. I need/want them both. I'll look into all of those and am still trying to find a way to audition the JTR T12's.
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post #9 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I'll look into all of those and am still trying to find a way to audition the JTR T12's.

If you add your location to your AVS profile, there is a slight chance someone in your area with the JTRs might read this thread and offer a demo.

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post #10 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 04:37 PM
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The only thing I know about JTR are their subs. I wouldn't call their speakers the prettiest in design, but I wouldn't buy them unless I could audition them. Who knows, they probably rock like their subwoofers.Most guys who really want loud reference level theater sound without distortion generally go the direction of Horn tweeter setups such as JBL.
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post #11 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to refrain from something with horns lol. From experience, horns tend to really give the high end that artificial "edge."

I'll update my profile, thanks for the idea, I didn't even think of that.
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post #12 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 05:03 AM
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My experience with any speaker that plays "at reference levels" for movies is typically a set-up that drives me out of the room pretty fast, especially if I try to listen to music with it. This is because a designer makes different choices to get higher efficiency and these tend to be choices that they would not otherwise make if after a straight up "musical" speaker.

My guidance would be to find the highest efficiency speaker that plays music to your liking for extended periods and go with them.

And why aren't you looking at Salk speakers, btw? Pay less, get more! He is also prototyping a high efficiency HT speaker. It is cool, but for the same money you could have a pair of HT2TL's that can do both movies and music very well. Give him a call. My reference, for the record, is always Salk. About to take delivery of my 6th pair next week. Can't beat the direct price for performance ratio.

I have heard several of the monitors mentioned here and I would not even go near them for any music reproduction. For high levels of HT they can really pound it out, but is that what you really want? I find them fatiguing after 10 minutes. Again, personal opinion in heavy doses so take with a grain of salt.
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post #13 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I want to refrain from something with horns lol. From experience, horns tend to really give the high end that artificial "edge."

I'll update my profile, thanks for the idea, I didn't even think of that.

You're experience with professional sound enforcement designs has unfortunately polluted your brain with regards to horns. I would really recommend listening to one of the designs before your misconceptions cause you to miss the speaker your looking for.

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I have heard several of the monitors mentioned here and I would not even go near them for any music reproduction. For high levels of HT they can really pound it out, but is that what you really want? I find them fatiguing after 10 minutes. Again, personal opinion in heavy doses so take with a grain of salt.

I'm curious exactly which of them you've heard? Very few people have heard 2 of the speakers mentioned, no less several. Seems kind of odd you would go through the trouble of finding these speakers to listen if you find them so painful.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the OP should know that your experience is not one I've seen before. Even for those that were not crazy about the speakers mentioned, listening fatigue is not a quality mentioned. In fact, non-fatiguing happens to be one of the primary strengths of their designs.

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post #14 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 06:45 AM
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^ And that is exactly what I was talking about in my original post in this thread. One person posts an honest opinion, and then someone else is always there to challenge them. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's becoming tiresome, especially when the folks getting into such debates tend to have not heard all of the speakers in question. And such is the circle of high efficiency speakers vs. hi-fidelity speakers; it'll never change.

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post #15 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ And that is exactly what I was talking about in my original post in this thread. One person posts an honest opinion, and then someone else is always there to challenge them. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's becoming tiresome, especially when the folks getting into such debates tend to have not heard all of the speakers in question. And such is the circle of high efficiency speakers vs. hi-fidelity speakers; it'll never change.

Exactly, and a big part of the problem is the number of really good speakers to choose from these days and the way that the ID market has expanded both the choices and price points. I believe most of the conflict arises from members truly trying to help get to the best solution, but sometimes many of us get caught up in highlighting differences in speakers that may be more relevant to personal choice and or experience within our own environments. Differentiating between speakers that probably fall in the 98% - 99% out of 100 in SQ/performance within the overall distribution is always going to be difficult and contentious, but at the end of the day, any of them would probably make the owner very happy. Haven't seen anything on this thread I wouldn't be excited to own.

It's also human nature to want to substantiate our own purchases after a personal journey to populate our systems. So on that note, the OP should buy Focal, cause it's the bestest
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post #16 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

My experience with any speaker that plays "at reference levels" for movies is typically a set-up that drives me out of the room pretty fast, especially if I try to listen to music with it. This is because a designer makes different choices to get higher efficiency and these tend to be choices that they would not otherwise make if after a straight up "musical" speaker.

My guidance would be to find the highest efficiency speaker that plays music to your liking for extended periods and go with them.

And why aren't you looking at Salk speakers, btw? Pay less, get more! He is also prototyping a high efficiency HT speaker. It is cool, but for the same money you could have a pair of HT2TL's that can do both movies and music very well. Give him a call. My reference, for the record, is always Salk. About to take delivery of my 6th pair next week. Can't beat the direct price for performance ratio.

I have heard several of the monitors mentioned here and I would not even go near them for any music reproduction. For high levels of HT they can really pound it out, but is that what you really want? I find them fatiguing after 10 minutes. Again, personal opinion in heavy doses so take with a grain of salt.

That's what I was afraid of. I guess you can't have it all.

Which were the several mentioned that you heard? I'm curious to know what to cross off the list or not to even add to the list.

So to have one system that sounds like a true audiophile system like Aerial 7T's and to be able to play at reference levels and beyond without strain, is mission impossible. AND i want both so I'm guessing the only thing there is for me to do is have a separate, dedicated music system from the loud, crazy reference system. Damn this hobby lmao. There's tradeoff's to everything and for somebody that wants it all, it makes things really hard.
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post #17 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, as an experiment today, I just hooked up my DJ system with my PA speakers to my Blu ray player to get an idea of what PA for home use is all about as far as movies and concert DVD's go. I listened to the Eagles Hell Freezes over as well as their farewell tour, and there are quite a few things that the PA speakers did MUCH better then my home theater speakers, SPL being the obvious one. But what they also did was give a much more upfront, in your face sound, as well as sounding absolutely HUGE! I will admit, it sounded more like a live concert through my PA speakers, probably because PA speakers are also used at live events lol. That being said, material with acoustic guitars and un-amplified instruments did not sound as natural as they do through my Paradigms. I don't know how the JTR T12's compare to my JBL PRX615m's in sound quality, but I hope they have a more natural mid-range. Not that my JBL's sound bad, I'm sure many of you guys on here that like PA stuff for home use would have been giggling away by this.

Oh, and for movies I tried the massive earthquake, earth crumble away scene right towards the beginning of the movie. This is where I decided to have some fun and pull out my Radio Shack SPL meter. Reference levels??? HA!!!! I was hitting peaks in the main satellites speaker ranges of 115 db and I only hooked up ONE of my TWO JBL PRX618S-XLF's and in my room, I hit peaks of OVER 126 db in the bass department. I don't know the exact number because my SPL meter only goes up to 126db!!! To say it was loud was an understatement. I can definitely see the appeal, I was sitting there watching in a cold sweat.

This made my decision harder if anything. My PA system satisfied my craving for huge dynamic sound and SPL, but not so much for polite, toned down listening and sound quality, and my current system satisfied me for sound quality (I was looking for an upgrade for a few reasons lol) but not always my desire for huge SPL. If the JTR's sound AT LEAST as good as my current Monitor 7 v3's, then I'm sure they'll find their way into my home.

NOW TO FIND A DAMN AUDITION!!!!
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post #18 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

That's what I was afraid of. I guess you can't have it all.

Which were the several mentioned that you heard? I'm curious to know what to cross off the list or not to even add to the list.

So to have one system that sounds like a true audiophile system like Aerial 7T's and to be able to play at reference levels and beyond without strain, is mission impossible. AND i want both so I'm guessing the only thing there is for me to do is have a separate, dedicated music system from the loud, crazy reference system. Damn this hobby lmao. There's tradeoff's to everything and for somebody that wants it all, it makes things really hard.

The idea that high effiency speakers are poor for music sounds to me like the "sealed sounds better than ported" arguments that keep going around for subs. It's one of those things that tends to be true when looking at lower priced products but once you step up to quality designs, kind of falls apart.

Before buying the JTRs, I spoke to some folks who previously had high end speakers before going to the JTR's. No one claimed the JTR's were superior to a high end two channel setup for music listening, but the universal opinion was that you were getting much more than what you were giving up.

We all hear things a little differently though, so the usual disclaimers apply....
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post #19 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 08:40 AM
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I've heard Gedlees, Catalysts, and JTR's at some of our local home theater meets. Not because I was auditioning them for my own use. All good products in their own right and I'm pretty good buddies with Mark and love his Submersive, which I own. So I am not disparaging these designs. To each their own. I find that a good speaker for stereo will do just fine in an HT environment for most. If you want that reference level sound in the HT, then go for one of these mentioned here.

From what I understand, reference level capability means high efficiency, which means a driver set that can perform there. Many stereo speakers use lower efficiency drivers - not sure why - that cannot deliver the high db levels you may desire in your HT set-up.

Agree Nuance. Too many folks here want to jump on your back instead of contributing to the topic at hand. That's why my count is low on AVS.

BTW Blackdevil, how much per pair are the Aerials? I have had 10T's and the CC3 in my HT and they were okay. In between Salk sets in the HT they were a stop gap. Missed the Salk sound too much and went back after a year.
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post #20 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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The Aerial 7T's are $9,850 for the pair. They also got a perfect score on Hometheaterreview.com. Before I saw that, I was looking at the similarly prices Paradigm S8's, which have a 92db sensitivity. In the speakers that will play at reference level thread, the thread starter determined that the 7T's would need 1,847 watts. I know they aren't designed for that, but still and interesting fact.

I do believe there are some sound quality PERKS to high efficiency speakers. Do to their high sensitivity, those subtle micro details are more easily heard since the drivers are more sensitive to input. Only problem is, they may not sound exactly as they were intended to sound, but you can hear them.
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post #21 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 10:20 AM
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Only problem is, they may not sound exactly as they were intended to sound, but you can hear them.

More details doesn't equal more realism?
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post #22 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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More details doesn't equal more realism?

It does, but not if those details have any sort of un-natural "artificial" sound to them, or any coloration. That's one thing I noticed on my JBL's. There's definitely a cabinet resonance to them. If I knock on them, they do ring a tad with a bit of an echo sound. My Paradigms seem more dense and don't ring. But my Paradigms are filled with insulation and my JBL's are hallow. That could be why lol. To me there's a difference between hearing them, and hearing them accurately.
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post #23 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 11:18 AM
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But my Paradigms are filled with insulation and my JBL's are hallow. That could be why lol. To me there's a difference between hearing them, and hearing them accurately.

So if you take those JBL's and insulate them with whatever padding there is nowadays that's good, blackhole etc, it'll outperform the Paradigms?
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post #24 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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So if you take those JBL's and insulate them with whatever padding there is nowadays that's good, blackhole etc, it'll outperform the Paradigms?

If it gets rid of the resonance, it might. But I think the JBL's would need a nice amount of bracing as well to reduce the resonance.
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post #25 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 11:27 AM
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Just buy 3 of these across the front. That's what I did and they sound great for 2 channel music and HT. http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it...k?SSAID=389818

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post #26 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

If it gets rid of the resonance, it might. But I think the JBL's would need a nice amount of bracing as well to reduce the resonance.

Then a flat freq response speaker that's super efficient would be the best at any price. Shouldn't be hard to make right?
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post #27 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 11:44 AM
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^ And that is exactly what I was talking about in my original post in this thread. One person posts an honest opinion, and then someone else is always there to challenge them. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's becoming tiresome, especially when the folks getting into such debates tend to have not heard all of the speakers in question. And such is the circle of high efficiency speakers vs. hi-fidelity speakers; it'll never change.

Yep, I admit I didn't really believe his opinion was honest. So I challenged it, and for a couple of good reasons. 1) I've run across very few individuals that have listened to several of the speakers I mentioned, and 2) combine that with the years that I've been reading listener impressions of these speakers and this is the first time I recall reading someone had listening fatigue after 10 mins.

Sorry, red flags go up. He has since offered some context to his statement and I believe him now

If I said I listened to Salk's and wrote in a "should I buy Salk's?" thread that they hurt my ears after 10 mins it would be prudent for someone to to point out that this is far from the typical experience reported.


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Originally Posted by PAD View Post

I've heard Gedlees, Catalysts, and JTR's at some of our local home theater meets. Not because I was auditioning them for my own use. All good products in their own right and I'm pretty good buddies with Mark and love his Submersive, which I own. So I am not disparaging these designs. To each their own. I find that a good speaker for stereo will do just fine in an HT environment for most. If you want that reference level sound in the HT, then go for one of these mentioned here.

Agree Nuance. Too many folks here want to jump on your back instead of contributing to the topic at hand. That's why my count is low on AVS.

I agree too. I try to avoid these threads since I have very poor impulse control . I don't personally care whether you like the designs or not, I own none of them. My intent was not to jump on your back, but your experience with those designs is not typical based on many other impressions posted and, quite frankly, based on that I wasn't buying that you actually listened. Owe you an apology on that front, it wasn't very neighborly.

But I still believe your experience of listening fatigue is far from typical

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
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post #28 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 12:00 PM
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Jeff is hosting an open house in april in chicago area to hear a fully tuned jtr setup. If I was going to drop 10k on speakers you can bet your bottom dollar I'd spend $200 on a plane ticket first.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #29 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 12:52 PM
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Yeah in this hobby, you don't want to do a blind audition. Speakers make or break the success. Who wants to look at speakers they hate and with a 10k price tag? My neighbor thought I was crazy when he seen me unloading 9 paradigm boxes, seeing the size of them and how massive they were in my room compared to his sony theater in a box bs. A few hours later I invited him back for a listen... His experience was orgasmic.

Go all out on your project but make damn sure you have heard what your buying first.
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post #30 of 32 Old 03-24-2012, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Yeah in this hobby, you don't want to do a blind audition. Speakers make or break the success. Who wants to look at speakers they hate and with a 10k price tag? My neighbor thought I was crazy when he seen me unloading 9 paradigm boxes, seeing the size of them and how massive they were in my room compared to his sony theater in a box bs. A few hours later I invited him back for a listen... His experience was orgasmic.

Go all out on your project but make damn sure you have heard what your buying first.

EXACTLY! Yet being able to find a way to audition some of these speakers is the hardest part of the whole process!

Thats funny with the neighbors. Reminds me of my neighbors, but I doubt they want an audition. They can already hear my stuff from their house
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