B&W CM8's or Paradigm Studio 60's or Paradigm SE series? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 81 Old 05-22-2012, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vailvon View Post

Venomous, it's version 5.

Below is the explanation on the ARC graph. The graphs are unaltered, dotted line is what ARC wants it to be.

Anthem's ARC (MRX series) can only change the speaker's frequency up to 5 khz. It can't do anything if the speaker is bright or warm. Below is the ARC's calibration for both speakers - studio 100 on the left and CM9 on the right. You will notice that between 5-18 khz, the studio 100 is higher than what Arc wants it to be (dotted line) and unfortunately can't do anything about it. The CM9 is right on the button and started to slope down after 10 khz. The studio 100 got more bass of course but I won't consider the CM9 as anemic, as you can see on the graph.

Thanks for the graphs and explanation. I own V5 100s and do not find them bright. I listened to the CM9s and didn't find them bright either. Maybe my ears aren't as sensitive as others.

My dealer was really trying to push dynaudio hard. I listened to the excites and was not excited by their performance. I liked the higher end speakers of dynaudio though as well as focals starting with the chorus.

How would you compare ARC to Audyssey XT32?
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post #62 of 81 Old 05-22-2012, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Thanks for the graphs and explanation. I own V5 100s and do not find them bright. I listened to the CM9s and didn't find them bright either. Maybe my ears aren't as sensitive as others.

My dealer was really trying to push dynaudio hard. I listened to the excites and was not excited by their performance. I liked the higher end speakers of dynaudio though as well as focals starting with the chorus.

How would you compare ARC to Audyssey XT32?

I wouldn't consider either bright as well. Judging by measurements I've seen, the v5 100s are fairly neutral and the CM9s are on the warm side of neutral.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #63 of 81 Old 05-22-2012, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

I wouldn't consider either bright as well. Judging by measurements I've seen, the v5 100s are fairly neutral and the CM9s are on the warm side of neutral.

That is what I thought too and tried to convince myself that Paradigms are neutral, trust me. I even bought the MRX 700 just for those speakers. But they are, I would say a little brighter than neutral.

Here is what I noticed, when listening to music with the s100, I'm always awake. With the CM9, I fall asleep.

I don't know why but it happens.
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post #64 of 81 Old 05-22-2012, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Thanks for the graphs and explanation. I own V5 100s and do not find them bright. I listened to the CM9s and didn't find them bright either. Maybe my ears aren't as sensitive as others.

My dealer was really trying to push dynaudio hard. I listened to the excites and was not excited by their performance. I liked the higher end speakers of dynaudio though as well as focals starting with the chorus.

How would you compare ARC to Audyssey XT32?


I haven't use the Audyssey yet. I own Outlaw pro/amp and they are one of the best overall.
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post #65 of 81 Old 05-22-2012, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Thanks for the graphs and explanation. I own V5 100s and do not find them bright. I listened to the CM9s and didn't find them bright either. Maybe my ears aren't as sensitive as others.

My dealer was really trying to push dynaudio hard. I listened to the excites and was not excited by their performance. I liked the higher end speakers of dynaudio though as well as focals starting with the chorus.

How would you compare ARC to Audyssey XT32?

What is your center speaker?

If you have Transformers movie, last one, try to listen to the first part where transformers are fighting in their planet and one of the autobot spaceship is trying to escape. The sound of the laser cannon from decepticon spaceship is so high pitch, it hurts my ears. I tried it with the CM9 and sound is totally different.
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post #66 of 81 Old 05-22-2012, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vailvon View Post

What is your center speaker?

If you have Transformers movie, last one, try to listen to the first part where transformers are fighting in their planet and one of the autobot spaceship is trying to escape. The sound of the laser cannon from decepticon spaceship is so high pitch, it hurts my ears. I tried it with the CM9 and sound is totally different.

My front stage consists of studio 100s, a cc690 center and a pair of studio 20s as presence.
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post #67 of 81 Old 05-24-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Bias can influence everything. Personal preference will always trump everything else, but regardless, read the case study. Whether you chose to take it to heart I don't care, but that case study does prove that on and off-axis measurements are important when it comes to choosing a speaker. It also proves your example wrong, as the speakers that the majority preferred had the smoothest on and off-axis frequency response. There is no perfect speaker for everyone, and not everyone will prefer speaker A over speaker B, but I bet the majority does if one has large deviations in the FR and the other doesn't. Again, the case study, performed by professionals, proves that.

The CM9 measurements are right there for you to see, so it does have to do with you, since you wanted to talk about the CM9's. We do agree that you should just purchase what you think sounds good, though. Measurements can simply help weed out the crap if you know how to interpret them.

Of course bias can influence what you hear. But i don't know how un biased i can be. As i said i don't have the CM9's. I've been listening to different speakers over the past year to upgrade to and the CM9's is not on my list of bad speakers. It's a warm speaker but still very very detailed. People often mistake its warmth for lacking something (then again it's what they heard so i guess they're not wrong in their opinion ) but i don't think thats true at all. Its ability to bring little details out of a movie soundtrack is really amazing.

We all have different taste in what we like in a speaker and what we hear. Thats a fact.

And that comment i made wasn't specifically towards you or the CM's. It was in general.

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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Once again, thanks for adding so much to the discussion. By the way, anyone could hear what I am talking about if they know what to listen for. I highly recommend Harman's "How to listen" training software for you, Venomous; no magic cables or wires necessary.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2011/0...ining.html?m=1

This software is great. Im currently playing with it. It's pretty easy to hear the difference between EQ and flat. Just have to choose the right band. I can hear the change in the low, mid, and high frequencies. It's tricky though cause sometimes the mid is EQ'd or both the mids and highs etc.

I recommend everybody try this. It's fun.

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post #68 of 81 Old 12-27-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vailvon View Post



It seems really odd as I find the CM9 really shines on jazz and classical music.


Below is the video comparison between Paradigm and B&W:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KORkOpICnSc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7qDZJGo4cM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwtJmI3YjIc


Heavy Vocal Music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc6NAJfGwJI

Sorry to bump an old thread but where can i get that Chesky Records ultimate demonstration disc? Amazon doesn't have anymore in stock. Do any stores carry them?

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post #69 of 81 Old 04-20-2013, 01:58 PM
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After a year of listening to a pair of Studio 60's purchased new in early spring 2012, i've probably suffered some hearing loss. They have way too much blare and sizzle and I have found it impossible to toe them the way I would prefer for proper imaging. As of today they are set aside and out of my main system. I will make some new cables later this week and hook them up to a small Cambridge integrated amp in a secondary location on another floor of my home. My associated equipment is all digital including a NAD M51 feeding a recent 200 WPC power amp.
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post #70 of 81 Old 04-20-2013, 02:36 PM
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I used to like B&W very much in the 2001-2005 time period, but after that the quality really went downhill except for the 800 series which is IMHO outrageously overpriced for what it is. The 600 series sounds muddy, the lifestyle M series is nothing to write home about, and while the CM series is decent, it is very overpriced for what it is.

My ears would say that Paradigm Studio is far superior, detailed, and neutral compared to B&W's CM series, and Paradigm's Signature series blows the 800 series out of the water, especially taking price into consideration.
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post #71 of 81 Old 04-21-2013, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 View Post


Who did this measurement? I've listened to the entire CM line and I find no flaws in them especially for the money. I would own them myself.

These type of measurements often don't represent what the listener actually hears. They are either summation of close-mic responses of the different drivers, or overall response at 1 meter away.

I don't listen to speakers at 1 meter away, and I'm guessing most people don't. The sound coming from different drivers often don't blend correctly at that distance. Furthermore, at that distance the height makes a huge difference on the frequency response. A 10 dB dip measured @ 1 meter, 20 inches high could easily be flat @ 3 meters away, 30 inches high.
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post #72 of 81 Old 06-21-2013, 01:20 PM
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Problem with "measurements" is that none of us has the same "receptors," i.e., we're all born with, and over the course of a lifetime unquestionably develop, different response curves of our own - the result of genetics and varying degrees of sound exposure and wear and tear over the course of a lifetime. What looks "flat" on a response curve may sound dull, neutral or bright to a particular listener. More important, then, is rendering output across the speakers response curve with a minimum of distortion. Beyond that, it truly is a matter of "buy what you like." Short of that, I suppose, is to listen only to live performance - no question that is realistic and "flat", although even that is open to question these days, as one rarely hears a concert that is not amplified and "enhanced" through a speaker system - so even what we like to think of as live performance is not necessarily uncolored sound.

You want "flat" response? Hire a competent a piano trio, sit them in a spacious living room with decent acoustics, and ask them to play. That's "flat." How you perceive what they play, however, will still be a function of the way your particular mechanical and neurological auditory sensory components are wired.
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post #73 of 81 Old 07-09-2013, 03:04 PM
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I've heard the CM9 and wanted to like it, but just couldn't warm up to it. There's something funky going on in their response from the mid to treble. A certain brightness I'd say, but a lot of people say they're warm sounding speakers. If the CM9s are warm, then I guess my Energy RC-70s sound dead. wink.gif

I'd vote for Paradigm Studio.
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post #74 of 81 Old 08-12-2013, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

I've heard the CM9 and wanted to like it, but just couldn't warm up to it. There's something funky going on in their response from the mid to treble. A certain brightness I'd say, but a lot of people say they're warm sounding speakers. If the CM9s are warm, then I guess my Energy RC-70s sound dead. wink.gif

I'd vote for Paradigm Studio.

And there you go. This is exactly what chambolle was talking about.

As you said, alot of people say they're warm speakers but you said they have a brightness to them. So who's right?

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post #75 of 81 Old 08-12-2013, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by superbooga View Post

These type of measurements often don't represent what the listener actually hears. They are either summation of close-mic responses of the different drivers, or overall response at 1 meter away.

I don't listen to speakers at 1 meter away, and I'm guessing most people don't. The sound coming from different drivers often don't blend correctly at that distance. Furthermore, at that distance the height makes a huge difference on the frequency response. A 10 dB dip measured @ 1 meter, 20 inches high could easily be flat @ 3 meters away, 30 inches high.

This is true and something that's hardly talked about regarding measurements. They really don't tell the whole story.

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post #76 of 81 Old 08-12-2013, 10:45 PM
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Folks, there's no need to try to infer or extrapolate performance of the CM8 based on CM9 measurements.

Go here for measurements of the CM8.

You can compare their CM8 measurements directly to their CM9 measurements for reference purposes.

For the folks that don't know how to interpret the results, I will offer a brief summary. The CM9 is an average performer, neither good nor bad. The performance of the CM8 would seem to indicate that Bowers & Wilkins no longer employs degreed engineers.

sfeldman721, good luck with your purchase and happy hunting! smile.gif
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post #77 of 81 Old 08-12-2013, 11:56 PM
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I've seen these dips in HT Labs measurements before, for the RC-70 (purple line):



Oh look, there's a dip almost in the exact frequency range that the CM9's had its dip

Now look at the measurements from Soundstage for the exact same speaker:




One set of measurements make the speaker look terrible, and the other one looks pretty good. This is for the same speaker, but you wouldn't think so from the graphs. I would take measurements like this with a grain of salt just from this discrepancy alone

[HT]

Energy RC-70 Rosenut
Energy RC-LCR Rosenut
Energy Veritas 1.0CM
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Pioneer SC-1522-K

 

[Desktop]

Emotiva Airmotiv 4

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Pics of my setup

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post #78 of 81 Old 08-13-2013, 07:51 AM
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vinht, you can't say the CM9's are average speakers based on measurements. Have you even heard them? I feel bad for people that base performance of speakers on graphs alone and not their own ears.

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post #79 of 81 Old 08-13-2013, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

vinht, you can't say the CM9's are average speakers based on measurements. Have you even heard them? I feel bad for people that base performance of speakers on graphs alone and not their own ears.

I have heard the CM9's numerous times. Each time I thought they were very bland. Waaay overpriced for the sound they produce.

Just my opinion of course.
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post #80 of 81 Old 08-13-2013, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menasor View Post

I've seen these dips in HT Labs measurements before, for the RC-70 (purple line):

Oh look, there's a dip almost in the exact frequency range that the CM9's had its dip

Now look at the measurements from Soundstage for the exact same speaker:


One set of measurements make the speaker look terrible, and the other one looks pretty good. This is for the same speaker, but you wouldn't think so from the graphs. I would take measurements like this with a grain of salt just from this discrepancy alone

Home Theater does a spatial average, incorporating 15 degrees vertically as well as horizontally. If you wanted to compare their measurements against SoundStage, then you would have to compare it only to their listening window graph, which is a similar spatial average over 15 degrees.


Image hot-linked from SoundStage! without permission.

Are the graphs exactly the same? No. However, accounting for scaling differences and different measurement modalities, the overall trend is very clear. Measurements can provide very useful insight to those who know how to interpret them and are able to correlate them against their own listening preferences.
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post #81 of 81 Old 08-13-2013, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

vinht, you can't say the CM9's are average speakers based on measurements. Have you even heard them? I feel bad for people that base performance of speakers on graphs alone and not their own ears.

I have listened to the CM9, I wouldn't mind owning them. To be clear, average is not meant in a negative manner. There are so many competent speakers these days, and the overall bar across the industry has been raised, so many more products will fall into the "average" category. Much like car acceleration, a 5 second 0-60 is fast, but so many cars from different walks of life can now do it, that it has become just merely average.
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