Floorstanders or monitors at $3-5k/pr - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 104 Old 04-21-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post


Nuance:

I agree with you. I can't tell you how tired I am of this whole reference level/high sensitivity speaker binary argument. I reach reference levels in my acoustically treated home theater with an 88 db sensitive speaker (Gallo ref 3.1) with 1 db of compression from the crossover frequency (60hz) to around 100hz-120hz. There is no compression above that point. I can do that because the speakers are in a real room not an anechoic chamber. The 6db loss per doubling of distance is based on a spherical spreading model with no boundary interference. Once you take room reflections into account the equation changes. When you set the 75 db level for using the reference pink noise from your receiver/processor the reflected energy from the room is included in that level. If the LP is 4 meters from the speaker the SPL at 1 meter will be less than the 87 db that the simple model suggests. Obviously this means you are also using less power.

Ultimately your choice of speakers should start as with any solid system engineering approach: a concept of operations.

In what environment will the speakers be placed?
Does this environment restrict speaker placement?
What will the source material be?
How much will you be listening with your spouse/gf?
How loud will you listen?
What is your budget?
Are there certain driver technologies that you particularly like/dislike the sound of?

Some of these are not independent variables. For example your spouse/gf will have an effect on source material, loudness and aesthetics. You can pare these out by performing a sensitivity analysis.

Once you have established the CONOPS then you can levy requirements on your speakers that satisfy it and establish weighting factors for those criteria that are not hard requirements. The latter will establish your trade space for your choice. Then go out and listen to the speakers that meet the hard requriements and grade them based on the trade space criteria.

Approaching your choice systematically in this fashion will result in your greatest chance of long term satisfaction. I believe your speaker search used such an approach, although a bit less formally, I believe. Consequently you ended up with a speaker that both you and your wife throughly enjoy.

In my case, even though I watch more movies than listen to music, music production is very important to me. After all virtually every film has a music score. My speakers also have to serve for both music and movies so my criteria was heavily weighted towards music reproduction.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut

What an awesome post - thank you for that.

May I ask which speakers you chose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post


Why are we talking about amps? I already have one that is quite capable for the vast majority of speakers.

I was thinking the same thing.

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post #92 of 104 Old 04-21-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


I'll let my wife choose the finish and/or veneer, and I guarantee it won't be hand rubbed polish on top of a beautiful red paint or veneer. At least I'll have SS8's, though.

Nice. Important thing is the sound for sure.
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post #93 of 104 Old 04-21-2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

What an awesome post - thank you for that.

May I ask which speakers you chose?

They're in the post. Gallo Reference 3.1s which I purchased used.

I also have a Gallo Strada Center and A'Diva Ti surrounds.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut
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post #94 of 104 Old 04-21-2012, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

How did you measure this in your room?
Power compression is frequency dependent, especially with the direct radiator designs that dominate the market.
A nice resource is Soundstage NRC measurements (>2005 IIRC, when they started doing the Deviation From Linearity tests) and the "What it means".
Here is an example Difference @ 95dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m) that illustrates:


cheers,

AJ

I set the mike at the LP and calibrated REW with the Pink Noise generated in the receiver. I then used the signal generator in REW to calibrate the input level so that -30 dbfs resulted in 75 db at the LP. I set the volume on the receiver to 0 reference and I then ran sweeps from 20 to 22.5 khz at -30dbfs, -20dbfs -10dbfs -3dbfs input. Since REW wouldn't allow me to go above -3bfs I raised the volume on the receiver to 3 db above reference and ran the sweep again. The sweeps were run with the Audyssey Flat curve enabled. I use an external 5 channel amp to power my speakers (Adcom GFA-7705). As stated in my post the mains are crossed over to my sub at 60 hz.

As to the NRC results, two points:

1. In the speakers that are designed for higher power handling, the amount of compression exhibited is minimal at 95db at 2m from the speaker.

2. The tests were conducted in an anechoic chamber. Without contribution from reflected sound the speaker is naturally going to have to work harder to produce a given SPL at the measurement position.

I agree with you that compression is frequency dependent which is evident from my own measurements. I am not arguing that compression doesn't exist just that it's effects are exaggerated by people in these forums who argue for high efficiency speakers. Unless your listening room is a cavernous space or acoustically dead, there will be a significant contribution from reflected sound to the measured SPL at the LP and that fact has to be factored in to the requirement set.

The point I am trying to make is that simply extrapolating a 6db loss per doubling of distance, throwing exaggerated compression numbers on top, assuming that reference level is an absolute requirement and assuming that a majority of movies will exhibit 30db of dynamic range is arguing for a point solution. As an engineer those type of arguments are a non-starter with me. My job as an engineer is to look across the entire solution space within the constraints of cost and customer requirements.

There are certainly cases where the only way requirements can be met is with high efficiency speakers or where the weighting of criteria would lead to their selection. What I see way to much of in these forums is in advocating a particular solution responders are in effect trying to "write" the OPs requirements.

Cheers
OldMovieNut
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post #95 of 104 Old 04-21-2012, 05:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post


2. The tests were conducted in an anechoic chamber.

Cheers
OldMovieNut

Hi OldMovieNut, yes that was why I asked.
The 1db at 60-120hz you measured in room would be well within measuring error limits.
We agree compression is quite real...and perhaps not too much a concern for the OP's listening habits.

cheers,

AJ
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post #96 of 104 Old 04-21-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post

They're in the post. Gallo Reference 3.1s which I purchased used.

I also have a Gallo Strada Center and A'Diva Ti surrounds.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut

Oops - so they are. I'm sorry; missed it while reading with my Android app.

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post #97 of 104 Old 04-22-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

You definitely should be looking at larger speakers capable of higher output levels. 5.25" woofers are not going to cut it in a room that size when you decide to crank it. A few options for LCR around $5k

JBL LSR6332
Adam GTC77
(both speakers have moveable baffles for center channel usage)

Paradigm Studio 100 and cc690

I would include the GTC 88. They retail $2250 per speaker.
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post #98 of 104 Old 04-29-2012, 09:17 AM
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@saeydoc,

I had the opportunity to listen to a Monitor Audio Platinum setup a few weeks ago and the sound of that system was very similar to what you are describing as your preferences. It was a relatively laid back speaker with incredible detail. One thing that struck me was the smoothness. Almost palpable.

I do not know what they cost and that may be a problem. They don't list prices on their website. Perhaps it is over budget. But this may still give you a target if you do end up liking the sound.

The guy that owns them has a HT room and a 2ch listening room. He has Platinum series in both rooms. I LOVED the 2 ch listening. But, the HT experience was sorely lacking. Way too laid back.

The next day I went to another users house to listen to his Procella setup and I was literally BLOWN away! You can read my impressions in the Procella thread. I wish I had more time to listen to that setup and to 2 ch music in particular. Needless to say the Procellas trounced the Platinums in MY OPINION. But, I fear they would be too forward and in your face for your preferences.

By the way I also love the Vandy 2C's and really wanted a pair but I could not make them fit. Salk has been mention here and I was so very close to pulling the trigger on a pair of SongTowers last year but again I did not feel that I could integrate them into the space I had to work with.

Since you are a Vandersteen fan have you heard the Quattro's? I will never forget hearing them. The Selah stuff looks VERY tempting! I would also love to hear the Synergy horns from Danley along with JTR and Seaton.

Any decisions?
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post #99 of 104 Old 04-29-2012, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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At this point my top contenders are the Vapor Cirrus, Selah Tempesta or Cicondare, as well as some of the Salks. My more critical listening is with music rather than explosive HT, so I'm leaning more towards smooth, accurate pleasing sound over extreme dynamics and ability to play at reference levels.
I got my wife to look at some pictures, and she liked some of the more unusual veneers.
Salk showed a new monitor at AKFest this weekend, a 2-way with Raal tweeter and Scanspeak Illuminator @$3500/pr. Waiting to hear some more details on those. The Soundscape M7 is appealing, but at the high end of what I'm willing to spend.
The Cirrus looks to be built to a very high quality, but they have had some trouble meeting delivery estimates so I may wait to see how that goes in the next few months. They have a new higher efficiency monitor, the Arcus, that isn't on their website yet and some reports at AKFest said the Aurora sounded really good as well.
The Selahs look to be a very good value for the quality of drivers they use, but they lose alot of that advantage if you want custom veneers.
Vapor will be at the Lone Star Audio Fest next weekend, I'm still considering going up there, but it's a long drive or a $300+ plane ticket, if more of my contenders were showing there it would be an easier decision.
I'm in no rush, will start contacting these companies for more specific details as I get closer to making the decision.
Knowing my wife all too well, I need to let some of my ideas sink in a little longer.
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post #100 of 104 Old 05-15-2012, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone heard the Pioneer S2-EX? They list for $7k, but I've seen them with stands for about $5k.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...X+Series/S-2EX
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post #101 of 104 Old 05-17-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

Anyone heard the Pioneer S2-EX? They list for $7k, but I've seen them with stands for about $5k.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...X+Series/S-2EX

Yeah, $5K for S2-EX:

http://audiovideologic.com/pioneer_exspeakers.php
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post #102 of 104 Old 05-17-2012, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, $5K for S2-EX:

http://audiovideologic.com/pioneer_exspeakers.php

Yeah, that's where I was looking, good price, but they will only sell them in pairs, defeats my purpose of getting 3 identical speakers. They wanted to sell me the S7-EX CC, but even if I put it on a fairly high stand, it will look stupid IMO.
Now down to Selah Tempesta or Salk SS M7, or something custom built. Vapor is also still on the radar, as is Soundfield.
Still working on wifey approval, easing her into the idea.
I can see how it could be difficult to get 3 from a mainstream manufacturer, shouldn't be a problem from an ID company though.
I still think the Phils are the best deal out there, but can't get over the looks, the bottom cabinet is just too bulky for what I'm trying to do.
Maybe have Del build me a stand mounted Phil 3, without the TL, maybe with a port or sealed. Would give up some in the low bass area, but that's what subs are for.
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post #103 of 104 Old 05-17-2012, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

Maybe have Del build me a stand mounted Phil 3, without the TL, maybe with a port or sealed. Would give up some in the low bass area, but that's what subs are for.

That's the way to go. Del can build some mean sexy large 3-way monitors.
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post #104 of 104 Old 05-17-2012, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

That's the way to go. Del can build some mean sexy large 3-way monitors.

Dennis said he may be interested after he sells out of the standard cabinets for the Phil 2s. That shouldn't take long, they are a great deal at $2k.
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