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post #1 of 104 Old 04-18-2012, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thinking about replacing my '87 Vandersteen 2Cs at some point. 5.1 system with Vandersteen V2W sub in a 25x23' room with the listening position about 1/2 way back, speakers on the short side. Room is open to another room on one side. It's not a dedicated room, used most of the time for casual HDTV or Blu-ray watching, but I like to crank it when I'm listening to music. Tastes range from classic rock to jazz including multi-channel concerts.
Using an Oppo 93 into an Anthem MRX300 into a Parasound HCA-2205A.
I'm thinking that since I'm using a sub for the real low end, it may be a better value to go with a stand-mounted monitor vs a floorstander. Less money into cabinetry and more into drivers.
Any opinions and recommendations?
Considering Salk (Songtower RT up to Soundscape M7 possibly), Selah Tempestra, Cirrus Vapor, Phil 2 or 3, Ascend Sierra Tower with Raal, but open to other suggestions.
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post #2 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, over 150 views and no responses. Surprised I got more help on another forum.
Some suggestions for higher-sensitivity speakers with bigger drivers due to the size of my room (Vapor Arcus instead of Cirrus), Joseph Audio, Philharmonics.
Any suggestions from anybody here?
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post #3 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 08:12 AM
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I'd recommend the Sierra RAAL Towers because they're super slim, efficient, and has super flat freq response. Not because I own them...
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post #4 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

Some suggestions for higher-sensitivity speakers with bigger drivers due to the size of my room (Vapor Arcus instead of Cirrus), Joseph Audio, Philharmonics.

I'd go high-sensitivity. Budget isn't high enough for Klispch Jubilees but it's right for slightly used Klipschorns and double what is needed for vintage Klipschorns in excellent condition. Other than those, there are JTR, Danley, JBL Pro to consider (but I have unfortunately never heard those).

If the 23-foot wall has corners with 4 feet of wall in either side, the size is just about perfect to drop Klipschorns into them. Here's a pair on my 20-foot wall:



They are big but since they don't need to be away from wall, they actually take up less space than most speakers:


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post #5 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 09:13 AM
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I still think the SongTower's and Ascend Sierra Towers are the best value for your dollar. Go with whichever fits your requirements better.

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post #6 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

If the 23-foot wall has corners with 4 feet of wall in either side, the size is just about perfect to drop Klipschorns into them. Here's a pair on my 20-foot wall:

No good corners to work with, I'll try to get some pictures up this weekend.
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post #7 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I still think the SongTower's and Ascend Sierra Towers are the best value for your dollar. Go with whichever fits your requirements better.

They are definitely near the top of my list. The Phils are very appealing, not sure if they have as good a WAF though.
I've been catching grief for my Vandys since the day I bought them. Luckily she's used to them by now, there's not much that will look worse.
I'm restricted to having my Plasma above the fireplace, which we rarely if ever use. I've been dealing with a Vienna Waltz as a CC on the mantle.
I'm thinking about getting 3 identical speakers for the F/C/R and just pull it out of the way on the rare occasion we use the FP, it's a gas burner and doesn't put out much heat anyway.
That would leave me more room for a larger screen when my 6 y/o Pio Elite wears out, or something better exists to replace it with.
I was thinking the stand mounted speaker might look better in that setup, but I make work on her to get the Phil 3s in a custom veneer.
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post #8 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 09:41 AM
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If you like to crank it, then I agree with the above poster that suggested higher sensitivity speakers. JTR, Klipsch La Scala or some of Klipsch Reference series. A pair of La Scala's would be an excellent choice. If we can help you, drop us a line.

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post #9 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 09:46 AM
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JTR T12s and either a Captivator or a Seaton box should do it. JBL 6332s are pretty amazing too, though not quite as sensitive or bang for buck. I think they measure better.
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post #10 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 09:47 AM
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Indeed, there's room for La Scala II (new, maybe without budget) with no corners required, but old La Scala in black birch would not pass WAF in a livingroom (they didn't for me anyway).

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post #11 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 11:45 AM
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You definitely should be looking at larger speakers capable of higher output levels. 5.25" woofers are not going to cut it in a room that size when you decide to crank it. A few options for LCR around $5k

JBL LSR6332
Adam GTC77
(both speakers have moveable baffles for center channel usage)

Paradigm Studio 100 and cc690
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post #12 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

You definitely should be looking at larger speakers capable of higher output levels. 5.25" woofers are not going to cut it in a room that size when you decide to crank it. A few options for LCR around $5k

JBL LSR6332
Adam GTC77
(both speakers have moveable baffles for center channel usage)

Paradigm Studio 100 and cc690

What does the moveable baffle do for you?

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #13 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If you like to crank it, then I agree with the above poster that suggested higher sensitivity speakers.

Good point: what does he mean by "crank it?"

saeyedoc,

Will you be listening at 90+ dB and watching movies at reference levels? If so go with something high sensitivity. You'll lose musical performance going that route, but they'll play very loud without distortion.

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post #14 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


Will you be listening at 90+ dB and watching movies at reference levels? If so go with something high sensitivity. You'll lose musical performance going that route, but they'll play very loud without distortion.

Man, do we ever disagree on that! Remember he said up to 5K$ for a pair, yet you recommended speakers at $850 and $2000. I really don't think that my high-sensitivity suggestion would lose out on musical performance versus your cheaper recommendation. Being able to play loud doesn't mean they have too, and ability to play loud doesn't have to mean high distorsion.

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post #15 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Good point: what does he mean by "crank it?"

saeyedoc,

Will you be listening at 90+ dB and watching movies at reference levels? If so go with something high sensitivity. You'll lose musical performance going that route, but they'll play very loud without distortion.

I'll get out my meter this weekend, I doubt I'm hitting any where near reference level.
I have my system calibrated with ARC, will typically be at -15 or so watching blu-rays, may get to -10 listening to music, unless the source is particularly low (like AI on my cable box).
I'm old and my ears can't take it too loud (not that old at 51).
I'm not looking for reference level ear-splitting sound.
I like it more like Mrs. Nuance, nice and smooth in the upper registers.
Looking for a more refined sound as opposed to a movie theater room shaking experience.
From the description of the speakers at your WI GTC, I'd most likely prefer the Soundscape 8, but that's a little out of my current budget range.
My curiosity is whether it would be better to get something like the Phil 2 or 3, Salk STSC, etc. or go with a stand-mounted monitor with better drivers, along the lines of the Soundscape M7, Vapor Cirrus, Selah Tempestra.
I'm hearing concerns in some other forums that they may not have big enough drivers to deal with my space.
May have to ease my wife into the idea of 3 Phil 3s with nice veneers, sounds like it may be the best bang for the buck.
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post #16 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

What does the moveable baffle do for you?

The JBL allows you to rotate the baffle of the TM so you can lay it on its side without negative impact to off axis response. The Adam allows you to move and rotate the TM array and each woofer so you can have a WtmW layout.
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post #17 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

I'll get out my meter this weekend, I doubt I'm hitting any where near reference level.
I have my system calibrated with ARC, will typically be at -15 or so watching blu-rays, may get to -10 listening to music, unless the source is particularly low (like AI on my cable box).
I'm old and my ears can't take it too loud (not that old at 51).
I'm not looking for reference level ear-splitting sound.
I like it more like Mrs. Nuance, nice and smooth in the upper registers.
Looking for a more refined sound as opposed to a movie theater room shaking experience.
From the description of the speakers at your WI GTC, I'd most likely prefer the Soundscape 8, but that's a little out of my current budget range.
My curiosity is whether it would be better to get something like the Phil 2 or 3, Salk STSC, etc. or go with a stand-mounted monitor with better drivers, along the lines of the Soundscape M7, Vapor Cirrus, Selah Tempestra.
I'm hearing concerns in some other forums that they may not have big enough drivers to deal with my space.
May have to ease my wife into the idea of 3 Phil 3s with nice veneers, sounds like it may be the best bang for the buck.

Just remember, what ever the output is of your speakers at the LP (3m), your speakers are playing 9db louder at 1m. So if you listen at 90db when you jam out, you need speakers that can cleanly do 99db, and if there are dynamic peaks you could be looking at 110db or more.
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post #18 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Man, do we ever disagree on that! Remember he said up to 5K$ for a pair, yet you recommended speakers at $850 and $2000. I really don't think that my high-sensitivity suggestion would lose out on musical performance versus your cheaper recommendation. Being able to play loud doesn't mean they have too, and ability to play loud doesn't have to mean high distorsion.

$850 a pair? I made no such recommendation. As far as you disagreeing with me, it's a free country. I never knocked your recommendation, by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

I'll get out my meter this weekend, I doubt I'm hitting any where near reference level.
I have my system calibrated with ARC, will typically be at -15 or so watching blu-rays, may get to -10 listening to music, unless the source is particularly low (like AI on my cable box).
I'm old and my ears can't take it too loud (not that old at 51).
I'm not looking for reference level ear-splitting sound.
I like it more like Mrs. Nuance, nice and smooth in the upper registers.
Looking for a more refined sound as opposed to a movie theater room shaking experience.
From the description of the speakers at your WI GTC, I'd most likely prefer the Soundscape 8, but that's a little out of my current budget range.
My curiosity is whether it would be better to get something like the Phil 2 or 3, Salk STSC, etc. or go with a stand-mounted monitor with better drivers, along the lines of the Soundscape M7, Vapor Cirrus, Selah Tempestra.
I'm hearing concerns in some other forums that they may not have big enough drivers to deal with my space.
May have to ease my wife into the idea of 3 Phil 3s with nice veneers, sounds like it may be the best bang for the buck.

The latter does sound like a plan; I don't think they'll have an issue filling your space. Being crossed over to subwoofers helps a lot too, especially if you want to go the monitor route. If you do, though, try to go with something with a higher sensitivity unless you have tons of power to drive them. Even with 200+ watts into 8 ohms those SoundScapes ate those amps alive at the GTG.

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post #19 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

$850 a pair? I made no such recommendation. As far as you disagreeing with me, it's a free country. I never knocked your recommendation, by the way.


The latter does sound like a plan; I don't think they'll have an issue filling your space. Being crossed over to subwoofers helps a lot too, especially if you want to go the monitor route. If you do, though, try to go with something with a higher sensitivity unless you have tons of power to drive them. Even with 200+ watts into 8 ohms those SoundScapes ate those amps alive at the GTG.

By the latter, are you referring to the Phil 3s or the idea of going with the monitors?
The Vandy's have a sensitivity of 86 and I've yet to run out of power, should be ok as long as I don't go much lower than that.
Since there's more bass being off loaded to a sub with a monitor, would it be easier to drive than a full-range speaker like the SS8 given the same sensitivity?
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post #20 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 01:52 PM
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I've heard the paradigm studio series and only can imagine how good these would be...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/home-...e-theater.html
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post #21 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

The JBL allows you to rotate the baffle of the TM so you can lay it on its side without negative impact to off axis response. The Adam allows you to move and rotate the TM array and each woofer so you can have a WtmW layout.

I see. Very cool. Thanks!

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #22 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 01:54 PM
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If you need to play it loud (HT oriented):

2 x JTR Triple 8HT

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/



If you want pure Hi-Fidelity (Music oriented):

Swan T900F

Specs: http://www.mockupworld.com/swan_spea...&shopp_pid=155 (T900F is the same as the T1000F except no built in sub)
Dealer: http://www.lockwaresystems.com/t900f-121-239.html



Good luck!~

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post #23 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

I've heard the paradigm studio series and only can imagine how good these would be...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/home-...e-theater.html

I've just installed some Paradigm SA-15 R 30s in my ceiling for surround (no where else to put them ). They're pretty good, but I still think there's more value in the internet direct brands. I'm sure the Sigs are nice, but I think there may be better at that price point.
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post #24 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

By the latter, are you referring to the Phil 3s or the idea of going with the monitors?
The Vandy's have a sensitivity of 86 and I've yet to run out of power, should be ok as long as I don't go much lower than that.
Since there's more bass being off loaded to a sub with a monitor, would it be easier to drive than a full-range speaker like the SS8 given the same sensitivity?

I was referring to the Philharmonic 3, but monitors should work very well also. Whether or not the monitor is easier to drive than a floor standing speaker all depends on the speaker's measurements. In other words, there is no unanimous correct answer.

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post #25 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

$850 a pair? I made no such recommendation.

Sorry, I looked up the plain Sierra.
Quote:
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As far as you disagreeing with me, it's a free country. I never knocked your recommendation, by the way.

Well, you implied it came at a cost of being less musical. I disagree. A lot. I spend hours listening to stereo music at low levels on my high sensitivity speakers.

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post #26 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 03:05 PM
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Well, you implied it came at a cost of being less musical. I disagree. A lot. I spend hours listening to stereo music at low levels on my high sensitivity speakers.

I assume he made that statement because in most cases high sensitivity speakers are made for the sole purpose of HT, hence why there is so much emphasize on high output. It's not a direct statement that all high sensitivity speakers sound worse than less efficient, but assume this, if a low sensitivity speaker is not focusing on high spl, it's probably focusing on accuracy with a "no compromise" musical listening experience. High Sensitivity speakers in most cases will beat lower sensitivity in HT due to sheer dynamics; nevertheless, I would say that I feel any speaker optimized for Hi-Fidelity would beat HT oriented speakers in a heartbeat when it comes to music. These speakers, in most cases, tend to have a lower sensitivity.

Either way, once two speakers are level matched, sensitivity will mean nothing. My opinions are based on comparisons between certain highly efficient models and less-efficient models in both musical and HT applications.

This is my own opinion, and does not reflect that of Nuance's. I'm just merely providing some insight as to what may be his way of thinking.

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post #27 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 04:14 PM
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When you get into the 5K a pair high-sensitivity speakers, they can sound way good.
Don't forget that high-sensitivity may mean lower excursion and therefore lower distorsion.

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post #28 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

When you get into the 5K a pair high-sensitivity speakers, they can sound way good.
Don't forget that high-sensitivity may mean lower excursion and therefore lower distorsion.

Of course they can sound good, however making a claim that high-sensitivity will sound better because of x amount of reasons is an opinion, not a fact. Any two speakers, regardless of sensitivity, will sound different from each other once level matched, for better or worse. There are many low sensitivity speakers out there that have quite low distortion measurements.

To each his own.

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post #29 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaos View Post

Of course they can sound good, however making a claim that high-sensitivity will sound better because of x amount of reasons is an opinion, not a fact. Any two speakers, regardless of sensitivity, will sound different from each other once level matched, for better or worse. There are many low sensitivity speakers out there that have quite low distortion measurements.

To each his own.

- Kh[a]os

Nope. Level matching will be fine for lower volumes. But once the lower sensitivity speaker sucks all the juice out of your amp then you will have clipping and lots of distortion. The higher sensitivity speaker will get much louder while remaining clean and undistorted.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #30 of 104 Old 04-19-2012, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Nope. Level matching will be fine for lower volumes. But once the lower sensitivity speaker sucks all the juice out of your amp then you will have clipping and lots of distortion. The higher sensitivity speaker will get much louder while remaining clean and undistorted.

It should be obvious I was talking under situations where both speakers would have an adequate amount of power. Obviously if the amp isn't pumping out enough juice, then the comparison would be invalid. My argument was that "sound quality" is not affected by sensitivity. If you want to say that not having enough power = worse sound quality, then we are now blaming the amplifier, not the speaker. This also agrees with my point that high-sensitivity works in coherence with high spl. A Hi-Fidelity speaker with low sensitivity will most probably have no issue's with music at regular-higher listening volumes provided the amp provides enough clean wattage because most "peaks" where high-sensitivity shines are involved in an HT application.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Level matching will be fine for lower volumes.

I was proving that high-sensitivity != better sound quality, given the proper pre-requisites. This quote is in direct agreement with my claim. As long as the amplifier has the power, this should apply all the way up to until you breach the threshold of pain, at which point it will no longer matter how much louder the "other" speaker can get without distorting.

We are in a thread where the OP is looking for speakers in the 3k-5k range. If the OP does not have a good amplifier, he should not be investing in speakers at this price point.

I will say, you are in fact right. If the amp cannot supply the power to the less efficient, then the more efficient will sound better. Nevertheless, this is no longer a fair comparison.

OP's Amp Ratings:
220 watts RMS x 5, 20 Hz - 20 kHz,
8 Ω, all channels driven;
300 watts RMS x 5, 20 Hz - 20 kHz,
4 Ω, all channels driven

His subwoofer is handling the lower frequencies (where the excess power actually comes into play). With this in mind, it's safe to say he has more than enough power.


My argument is valid.

- Kh[a]os

 

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