Paradigm Studio CC-690 Crossover? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 04-19-2012, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello All.

I've been trying to get clarification from Paradigm Support regarding the Studio CC-690's crossover points and what frequency range the "mid/woofer" covers, but I keep getting responses that don't make sense (to me).

The question that I posted to their support was:

Quote:


Hello

The website clearly states the crossover points are 3 kHz, and 500 Hz.

What the website does not clearly state is:
1) how the "mid/woofer" drivers compare to the mid driver (the driver below the tweeter), and
2) how the "mid/woofer" drivers compare to the outer woofers drivers

If the CC-690 is just a 3-way speaker with only two crossover points, then that would imply either:
a) the two "mid/woofer" drivers operate exactly as the center midrange driver, or
b) the two "mid/woofer" drivers operate exactly as the outer woofers

What role do the "mid/woofer" drivers (ie: the two 7 inch S-PAL cones) perform?

Can you confirm that the CC-690 is not a 3.5-way like the Signature C5?

Paradigm's Response:

Quote:


Hello!
The 690 is a 3.5 way model. The bass woofers cross over at 500hz and the mid woofer run from 500-3khz. The mid/tweeter assembly operates from 3khz - 22khz.
Cheers!

(Note that this was the second communiqué to Paradigm Support. Their response to my first question was canned and simply told me what I already said I knew from the CC-690's specs page)

Support's latest response implies that the little center mid driver (below the tweeter) starts at 3kHz and goes up. Yet the range for the mid is usually:

Code:
Studio CC-490:  500 - 2.1 kHz
Studio CC-590:  400 - 2.5 kHz
Studio 60:      500 - 2.0 kHz
Studio 100:     300 - 2.0 kHz;
Studio ADP-590: 300 - 2.1 kHz
Signature C5:   500 - 2.1 kHz
If the Studio CC-690 is like the Signature C5, then I would have expected a third crossover point. Based on the C5's specs page, my assumption is that the "woofer/mid" in the C5 operates from 43 - 600Hz, and the purpose of the outer woofers is to reinforce the woofer/mid from 350Hz and down (hence the .5 in 3.5-way).

Is there anyone out there who knows what frequency the drivers cover?

Cheers

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post #2 of 17 Old 04-19-2012, 01:18 PM
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A 3.5 way crossover will still have two crossover points. In the case of the 690 it would work like this:

Tweeter operates between 22k and 3k
Mid operates between 3k and 500
Woofer 1 operates below 3k
Woofer 2 operates below 500
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post #3 of 17 Old 04-19-2012, 04:21 PM
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Funny no where in any cc-690 or specification is it identified as a 3.5 way?

Spec's
cc-690 6-driver, 3-way center channel
2nd-order electro-acoustic at 3.0 kHz;
2nd-order electro-acoustic at 500 Hz
(bass drivers)
C5 6-driver, 3-1/2-way center channel
3rd-order electro-acoustic at 2.1 kHz;
2nd-order electro-acoustic at 600 Hz,
2nd-order electro-acoustic at 350 Hz
(outer bass drivers)

Then how about the CC-390 still a three way.
7-driver, 3-way center channel
2nd-order electro-acoustic at 2.4 kHz;
2nd-order electro-acoustic at 250 Hz
(bass drivers)

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post #4 of 17 Old 04-19-2012, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Alcasid View Post

A 3.5 way crossover will still have two crossover points. In the case of the 690 it would work like this:

Tweeter operates between 22k and 3k
Mid operates between 3k and 500
Woofer 1 operates below 3k
Woofer 2 operates below 500

Hello Ron.

You sir, have blown my head. [pun intended]

Initially I thought you were a nut-bag. My reasoning was that: if
  • 2.5 way speakers have two crossover points, then that would mean that
  • 3.5 way speakers should have three crossover points.

After doing some research on high/low/pass-band filers and crossovers, I think I figured out how it's done.

I don't know the correct way to show the crossover topology (correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology), so please excuse my crude ascii art diagram.

If I understand it correctly, it works like this: ...
Code:
          M
      T   W   M   W
22K   :
      :
 3k ->X---.   :
          :   :
500       :-->X----
          :       :
  0       :       :

 T = Tweeter,  M = Mid,  MW = Mid/Woofer,  W = Woofer
Is that correct?

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post #5 of 17 Old 04-19-2012, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Funny no where in any cc-690 or specification is it identified as a 3.5 way?

I'm not saying it is, I'm not saying it isn't.
Paradigm support said that it was, but only after I put the words in their mouth, so the response from support is highly questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Then how about the CC-390 still a three way.

The CC-390 only has three types of drivers:
  • 1 x High-Frequency Driver
  • 2 x Midrange Drivers
  • 4 x Bass Drivers
from here: http://www.digitalcentre.com.au/p/51...on-6-each.html

While the CC-690 and the C5 both have an additional "mid/woofer".

I love my C-spot vibrator. (that's C ... as in cochlea)
Lower ... deeper ... sharper ... harder ... Owh Yeahhh.

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post #6 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 01:39 AM
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I don't think they list both xo points for the woofers in 2.5 speakers

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #7 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I don't think they list both xo points for the woofers in 2.5 speakers

Today researching, i saw two crossover points listed for the kef q900.

I love my C-spot vibrator. (that's C ... as in cochlea)
Lower ... deeper ... sharper ... harder ... Owh Yeahhh.

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post #8 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s3m4ph0r3 View Post

Today researching, i saw two crossover points listed for the kef q900.






And from Kal Rubinson's Stereophile review of the Q900:


"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #9 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s3m4ph0r3 View Post

I'm not saying it is, I'm not saying it isn't.
Paradigm support said that it was, but only after I put the words in their mouth, so the response from support is highly questionable.


The CC-390 only has three types of drivers:
  • 1 x High-Frequency Driver
  • 2 x Midrange Drivers
  • 4 x Bass Drivers
from here: http://www.digitalcentre.com.au/p/51...on-6-each.html

While the CC-690 and the C5 both have an additional "mid/woofer".

Didn't say 3.5 came from you, as you said paradigm said that.

I brought up the cc-390 because it was a another large Paradign center design, and the four woofer design is also unusual. The CC-690 could have a similar design, only the Aluminum mid range/woofer because it is metal it's response extends a lot higher into the mid-range, but might not have as low a response as the polypropylene cones. This would be used to supplement the peak output of upper bass as well as through the midrange, but the 4 1/2 midrange + tweeter assy output would be the same.

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post #10 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 12:25 PM
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Well you can definitely hear stronger dialog from a cc690 opposed to the cc590. So it's likely the additional xover point and added mid woofers are helping out the dialog. When you start changing up the xover output from the receiver, you can see the muscle behind each center in the lower freq ranges. I'm not sure how many people have their cc690 xovers at 40hz, but I find it quite enjoyable.
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post #11 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello sivadselim

Yeah, your right.

I must have gotten confused between:
Update: no ... I think it was a page on Klipsch Reference Series RC-7
http://reviews.cnet.com/separate-spe...-31243614.html
Crossover Frequency 550Hz , 1950Hz

I love my C-spot vibrator. (that's C ... as in cochlea)
Lower ... deeper ... sharper ... harder ... Owh Yeahhh.

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post #12 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Venomous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Well you can definitely hear stronger dialog from a cc690 opposed to the cc590. ...

You say "stronger", but would you say just as "clear', especially when way off to the side (like 60-70 degrees off)?

The reason I ask is because I have a paranoia about off axis combing.

I have a two set's of Sony 5.0 POS speakers.
  • The first set (about 10 years old) were/are a part of an all-in-one. The sound was "OK" given the size.
  • The latest set of 5.0 speakers (very cheep $AU300) were just to tide me over until I could afford something decent. All I really wanted was an amp with dynamic volume, as I got sick of the wife saying "turn it down".

Anyway, the paranioa comes from the fact that the newer Sony center speaker has two drivers about 10cm apart. Not long after listening to the new Sony center I was like ... "I just turned it up, and I still can't understand what they're saying ... wtf". I'm currently using the old center with the newer speakers, and now the dialogue is comprehendable.

My concern with the CC-690, is that the two mid/wooffer being so far apart and covering a high range (3kHz and down) that the CC-690 is really only designed to go under 150" screens and long/thin rooms.

I love my C-spot vibrator. (that's C ... as in cochlea)
Lower ... deeper ... sharper ... harder ... Owh Yeahhh.

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post #13 of 17 Old 04-20-2012, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s3m4ph0r3 View Post

Hello Venomous



You say "stronger", but would you say just as "clear', especially when way off to the side (like 60-70 degrees off)?

The reason I ask is because I have a paranoia about off axis combing.

I have a two set's of Sony 5.0 POS speakers.
  • The first set (about 10 years old) were/are a part of an all-in-one. The sound was "OK" given the size.
  • The latest set of 5.0 speakers (very cheep $AU300) were just to tide me over until I could afford something decent. All I really wanted was an amp with dynamic volume, as I got sick of the wife saying "turn it down".

Anyway, the paranioa comes from the fact that the newer Sony center speaker has two drivers about 10cm apart. Not long after listening to the new Sony center I was like ... "I just turned it up, and I still can't understand what they're saying ... wtf". I'm currently using the old center with the newer speakers, and now the dialogue is comprehendable.

My concern with the CC-690, is that the two mid/wooffer being so far apart and covering a high range (3kHz and down) that the CC-690 is really only designed to go under 150" screens and long/thin rooms.

I sit off axis with no change in dialog. I have a rather large sectional shaped in an L with me on the chase at the bottom of the L. The system is so clear, my wife will complain for me to turn it down as well. I can be at +38 on the volume and hear the complaining. It's me versus the dish washer, which I prevail over each and every time
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post #14 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

I sit off axis with no change in dialog. I have a rather large sectional shaped in an L with me on the chase at the bottom of the L.

If the lounge is infront of the TV, then it's not really all that off-axis.

I want to be able to hear the dialogue when I'm in the kitchen/dining (next room over, it's semi-open). From my picture below, I'm looking at 70-ish degrees off axis.

This is sortof my layout
Code:
.-------------------|--------------------.
|                            L ==C== R   |
|                                        |
|    Dining                              |
|                                        |
|...............____            Couch    |
|               |   |           Here     |
|  .------------|---|                    ' 
|  |    Kitchen                           
|  '----------------|         L      R    
'-------------------|     |--------------'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

The system is so clear, my wife will complain for me to turn it down as well.
I can be at +38 on the volume and hear the complaining.

If it is clear, but she's saying turn it down, I'm assuming you have it up loud yes?
What does "+38" mean?

I have an Onkyo 508. When I have dynamic volume on the typical daytime
volume is "20". (Where the amp does 0..80, but I've never really gone above 40 as the speakers can't handle it ... (mind you, I have bass set to +10dB).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

It's me versus the dish washer, which I prevail over each and every time

Yes. I have the same problem. The kettle is worse though. It's amazing how much random noise it makes (as in loud) but you don't realise as it's random. When you can't hear the dialogue then you realise.

I love my C-spot vibrator. (that's C ... as in cochlea)
Lower ... deeper ... sharper ... harder ... Owh Yeahhh.

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post #15 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s3m4ph0r3 View Post

If the lounge is infront of the TV, then it's not really all that off-axis.

I want to be able to hear the dialogue when I'm in the kitchen/dining (next room over, it's semi-open). From my picture below, I'm looking at 70-ish degrees off axis.

This is sortof my layout
Code:
.-------------------|--------------------.
|                            L ==C== R   |
|                                        |
|    Dining                              |
|                                        |
|...............____            Couch    |
|               |   |           Here     |
|  .------------|---|                    ' 
|  |    Kitchen                           
|  '----------------|         L      R    
'-------------------|     |--------------'

If it is clear, but she's saying turn it down, I'm assuming you have it up loud yes?
What does "+38" mean?

I have an Onkyo 508. When I have dynamic volume on the typical daytime
volume is "20". (Where the amp does 0..80, but I've never really gone above 40 as the speakers can't handle it ... (mind you, I have bass set to +10dB).



Yes. I have the same problem. The kettle is worse though. It's amazing how much random noise it makes (as in loud) but you don't realise as it's random. When you can't hear the dialogue then you realise.

Based off your diagram, you will hear it. Of course, volume output level will be important but it will be clear and loud for you. My room is set up opposite of yours btw.

My day volume will be -38 or going to -31 depending on the racket. Nightime is between -45 to -50. Studios are very efficient speakers so as you know, it doesn't take much to drive them loud.

-38db is my volume meter on my Yamaha 3010. The louder you crank it, the lower the number... -10 being loud, +0 being very loud and +10 really pushing damage to your hearing.
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post #16 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Based off your diagram, you will hear it.

We are talking about the kitchen/dining right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Studios are very efficient speakers so as you know, it doesn't take much to drive them loud.

Yeah ... it's more about clarrity than volume. If it is clear, then I shouldn't have to turn it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

The louder you crank it, the lower the number... -10 being loud, +0 being very loud and +10 really pushing damage to your hearing.

Yeah, I just wasn't sure if you were talking "relative" (ie: -n dB .. +n dB) or "absolute" (ie: 0..N) (I believe relative/aboslute is the Onkyo terminology).

I love my C-spot vibrator. (that's C ... as in cochlea)
Lower ... deeper ... sharper ... harder ... Owh Yeahhh.

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post #17 of 17 Old 08-29-2013, 01:18 PM
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Sorry to wake up an old thread here. I recently bought a CC-690. I haven't taken a driver out to follow the wiring, but I'm reasonably sure the CC-690 is a 3-way design as the website states. Playing test tones, the four 7" drivers seem to have the same rolloff frequency, with the 4-1/2" midrange picking up at 500Hz. I'm not sure what the deal is about half the 7" drivers being S-PAL.. maybe it helps timbre-match the handoff to the midrange. I agree with the OP that the stated 3kHz crossover is between the midrange and tweeter. I also agree that drivers several inches apart should not both cover the midrange. MTM only provides good dispersion on one axis. Paradigm knows this, and it's why the midrange and tweeter are arranged vertically. There was for me a notable difference in pitching the speaker up and down, but horizontal dispersion is good. I know the 7" SPAL is designed and intended to run up into the midrange (ie Studio 20), but it doesn't on this speaker.
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