Speakers for 20-30K - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Triad Platinum: http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irplcr.html



15K / pair.


Edit: I forgot, you'll need the pedestals for the Platinum's. They're about $1.5K, so add that to the price.

Now THAT is outrageous!
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post #92 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Now THAT is outrageous!

$16.5K for a pair of large "monitors" with a +/- 3dB response from 60Hz-20kHz does seem kind of high.
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post #93 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

$16.5K for a pair of large "monitors" with a +/- 3dB response from 60Hz-20kHz does seem kind of high.

My gripe is they should be included for $15k, or only cost $200.

large monitors with a better response

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...x?PId=26&MId=5

only $3k pr
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post #94 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

My gripe is they should be included for $15k, or only cost $200.

large monitors with a better response

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...x?PId=26&MId=5

only $3k pr

Now we're talking.

Any day. Anywhere.
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post #95 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Triad Platinum: http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irplcr.html



15K / pair.

Dual Seaton Submersive HP's: http://www.seatonsound.net/



$2.2K /each

That setup will price out at about $22K with shipping. Then spend a little more to get Mark Seaton to set it up for you. If you would like to hear the system, and you don't mind driving, you're about 2.5 hours from me in Lancaster, PA.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Craig

Edit: I forgot, you'll need the pedestals for the Platinum's. They're about $1.5K, so add that to the price.

Good recommendation!

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post #96 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 12:20 PM
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$30k budget and you aren't considering a line array? It's an amazing experience if you never heard a line array setup. It will also spark up a hell of a conversation every time someone lays eyes on them in your office. Talk about being involved into the listening experience of your favorite music. Since its your office, the misses has no input at how big the speakers are either. Win win.

I'm with solid state, $30k for a set of speakers with 3 drivers a pop, how does one justify that price?
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post #97 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 12:23 PM
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Vandersteen 5A, Salk Soundscape's, Revel Salon2's or Dynaudio Confidence C4 MKII. All of them are amazing!

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post #98 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

NO NEAR FIELD INTERFERENCE!

Incredible...

Not quite correct. Arrays work on the basis of controlling the interference over a range of frequencies and over the desired area. I'm not stating they don't work and have significant benefits, but by definition the impulse is smeared and the combination of the column is less constructive up close and more effective at distance. The goal is for the directivity/off axis cancellation to be of greater benefit than the interference being put to use.

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post #99 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Not quite correct. Arrays work on the basis of controlling the interference over a range of frequencies and over the desired area. I'm not stating they don't work and have significant benefits, but by definition the impulse is smeared and the combination of the column is less constructive up close and more effective at distance. The goal is for the directivity/off axis cancellation to be of greater benefit than the interference being put to use.

Actually the CBT is a different animal. Sorry we didn't get time to talk in Denver!

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post #100 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

30k for a set of speakers with 3 drivers a pop, how does one justify that price?

Quality over Quantity.

Excluding the higher-end arrays like Selah, which use ScanSpeak, RAAL, Seas, which are all top quality.

You don't believe every one of those little line array drivers from Parts Express (CBT) are equal in Quality to the drivers in the Salon2, KEF 207/2, Dynaudio, Soundscape, Seaton, JTR, Ascend, Philharmonic, Linkwitz Orion, Selah, or Pioneer S-1EX do you?
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post #101 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post

Actually the CBT is a different animal. Sorry we didn't get tme to talk in Denver!

It was too bad we were both running opposite directions in Denver.

I have lots of respect for Don Keele who I've met a handful of times and friends from college worked directly with him. The CBT array is a unique and useful execution of an array. If you have more than a couple of those tweeters operating above 1kHz, it's an array.

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post #102 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Not quite correct. Arrays work on the basis of controlling the interference over a range of frequencies and over the desired area. I'm not stating they don't work and have significant benefits, but by definition the impulse is smeared and the combination of the column is less constructive up close and more effective at distance. The goal is for the directivity/off axis cancellation to be of greater benefit than the interference being put to use.

Hi Mark!

With SBT the polar pattern is independent of distance! It does this via "shaded spherical cap" using Ledendre function. This is why CBT is such a "BIG DEAL".

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Keele%20-...r%20Arrays.pdf

You should checkout Don's keynote at PE. I thought the same thing. I saw that speaker perhaps a year ago online and thought the exact same thing then I watched his keynote and was shocked at the modeling of it's performance. It really seems like a future design that hasn't really been done yet for consumer use outside of the CBT36. In his white papers there is some info that would give a great designer such as you some fantastic ideas.

Don is sure the character ehh and thanks Mark for taking the time to explain stuff to a layman like me even if it doesn't apply to this special design. Sorry for my initial prejudice toward your speakers as well. At this point from all I've read I'm dying to hear them as much as I am Don's CBTs!

JBL filed patents second but was awarded theirs first. Looks like a potential lawsuit to use commercially though.

JBL has commercial pro audio systems using it available right now.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?FId=89&MId=2

Don's personal site.

http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/

Here is the Audio Artistry site with Don's whitepapers.

http://www.audioartistry.com/presentations_keele.htm

I'm most certain Mark you'll understand how it works better than me!



Check this out Mark!

http://www.audioartistry.com/2-12%20...mulations).pdf

It uses what's called "legendre shading" to prevent smeared impulse. Checkout the interference patterns in the paper! THEY ARE AMAZING!
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post #103 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 05:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

If you have more than a couple of those tweeters operating above 1kHz, it's an array.

LOL

Don is using 72 of those tweeters! I guess the design would be hard and EXPENSIVE to implement with more expensive tweeters! On axis the tweers are a bit ragged on the top compared to say a Raal etc. BUT as you move off axis the FR looks dam near the same no matter the axis! It's really something amazing to behold and outside of a point source I've never seen anything like it.

AMAZING

Both Toole and Linkwitz have papers and comments on Don's work.

Perhaps someone that's heard this new technology can comment on it's performance.

This CBT is the only true new loudspeaker technology I've seen in... YEARS if not a couple decades!
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post #104 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Good recommendation!

yes, there would be MUCH worse ways to spend $30k... imo, the best "complete" suggestion of up to $30k yet...

i'm salivating...

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post #105 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

yes, there would be MUCH worse ways to spend $30k... imo, the best "complete" suggestion of up to $30k yet...

i'm salivating...

It seems like I can do fine with about 15K. But Im still open to suggestions.
I love all these different opinions, I intend to audition all and any that is available in a radios of 30 miles around me.
I dont want to think " Why didnt you try this one before buying"
Thank you everyone...
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post #106 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

omg an avs forum first!!!

Someone that actually agrees with Solid-State!!! And manages to do so without putting me down or indirectly insulting me. HUH you must not be involved in AV sales or distro!

ROTFL

I never thought I'd see the day!!!



Here is Don's site with technical stuff worth researching OP.

http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php

Checkout this vintage picture of Don



Reminds me of one of my most favorite vintage computer ads.



And Don appears to have a great sense of humor and has np making fun of himself! I bet he's just a great guy to meet!


He really is a good guy. Anyone in the Detroit area next weekend can meet him at the AK Fest.

Selah Audio

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post #107 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 07:33 PM
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Revel Salon 2.
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post #108 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Quality over Quantity.

Excluding the higher-end arrays like Selah, which use ScanSpeak, RAAL, Seas, which are all top quality.

You don't believe every one of those little line array drivers from Parts Express (CBT) are equal in Quality to the drivers in the Salon2, KEF 207/2, Dynaudio, Soundscape, Seaton, JTR, Ascend, Philharmonic, Linkwitz Orion, Selah, or Pioneer S-1EX do you?

With the CBT36 the parts don't have to be uber expensive. Multiple drivers can share the load for better power handling and less compression / distortion. Using a DSP crossover also levels the playing field. Lower manufacturing costs from economies of scale due to the large number of drivers. The outcome is much different than using the same drivers in a conventional design.

Selah Audio

Thinking Inside the Box...
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post #109 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 08:51 PM
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Center channel to match cbt36? Any horizontal options?
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post #110 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 08:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post

With the CBT36 the parts don't have to be uber expensive. Multiple drivers can share the load for better power handling and less compression / distortion. Using a DSP crossover also levels the playing field. Lower manufacturing costs from economies of scale due to the large number of drivers. The outcome is much different than using the same drivers in a conventional design.

I'm curious Rick if you or Don has tried the Xilica XM 240 or Ground Sound DCN24 with the CBT36.

They both look like great solutions over the behringer for little fishes like me and very affordable.
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post #111 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 08:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Center channel to match cbt36? Any horizontal options?

Marshal's brother Monty built one. Really checkout his site and the corp site as there is a TREASURE TROVE of info there!

http://www.mfk-projects.com/home_theatre.htm
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post #112 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 09:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Revel Salon 2.

If you look on the site you will find papers of Don's comparing the CBT36 to the B&W 801 as well as the Revel Salon. It not the Salon 2 but the same thing applies.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Keele%20-...r%20Arrays.pdf
PAGE 91

The CBT36 off axis just destroys both conventional designs!

It's really amazing to see how lendendre shading works in the one paper with the modeling.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=...82a1a8df06308e

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient...82a1a8df06308e

Here is as direct link to the CD of GOODIES for the MAGIC!

https://docs.google.com/uc?https://d...AyYjg3NjdiYjA0
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post #113 of 264 Old 04-20-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Center channel to match cbt36? Any horizontal options?

Yes, a full arc CBT placed horizontally works great as a center channel.

Selah Audio

Thinking Inside the Box...
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post #114 of 264 Old 04-21-2012, 05:59 AM
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You might want to check these out:

http://roundsound.com/reference-5ls.php
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post #115 of 264 Old 04-21-2012, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

That PA stuff isn't even in the same realm/galaxy as the stuff I'm talking about. That stuff is designed for active xover with signal processing for time alignment, EQing and all kinds of stuff and the amps required and their power requirements is RIDICULOUS. Plus it's 70V gear with transformers and autoformers. I think you PA suggestion guys are NUTS if you think it compares to "high fidelity".

TOTALLY NUTS OR HAVE POOR HEARING OR BOTH (I'm needling ya guys take it easy man)

IMHO it's not even in the same galaxy let alone solar system...

Solid, it's obvious that you don't know anything about Danley Synergy horns. They are naturally time and phase aligned. Danley Synergy horns are an excellent musical and HT speaker.

To the OP, 30K is a whole lot of money for two speakers. You get into the law of diminishing returns really fast in this hobby. I would hazard a guess that you could get 98-99% of the way there by spending 10-15K.

I really think Danley Sound labs is at the bleeding edge of speaker design. There aren't too many people out there designing speakers that have designed space shuttle payloads and done research for DARPA.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/p...dio_technology

http://danleysoundlabs.com/index.html

I would highly recommend you at least look at them and go try to have a listen. They are unlike anything out there. Anyone who calls them a PA speaker has no idea of what they truly are. They can be finished any way you want them finished.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #116 of 264 Old 04-21-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Solid, it's obvious that you don't know anything about Danley Synergy horns. They are naturally time and phase aligned. Danley Synergy horns are an excellent musical and HT speaker.

To the OP, 30K is a whole lot of money for two speakers. You get into the law of diminishing returns really fast in this hobby. I would hazard a guess that you could get 98-99% of the way there by spending 10-15K.

I really think Danley Sound labs is at the bleeding edge of speaker design. There aren't too many people out there designing speakers that have designed space shuttle payloads and done research for DARPA.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/p...dio_technology

http://danleysoundlabs.com/index.html

I would highly recommend you at least look at them and go try to have a listen. They are unlike anything out there. Anyone who calls them a PA speaker has no idea of what they truly are. They can be finished any way you want them finished.

I agree regarding the law of diminishing returns arguement. Buying speakers is not a numbers game but a path to discovering your own taste. For a lot of people a burger tastes better than filet and why shouldn't it?

To the OP, there are a lot of interesting technologies out there. Planar speakers, line arrays, open baffle, single driver speakers, speakers that look like art and sound okay, speakers that look homemads and sound brilliant.

Remember, you are buying a speaker you'll be listening to and looking at for years. Try to listen to them for hours before you takem home.
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post #117 of 264 Old 04-21-2012, 09:21 AM
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What did James Carville say? it's like "dragging a $100 bill through a Trailer Park

I have never understood the thought process behind this type of Thread. Throwing a number like $30K out there on a public forum will generate a lot of activity. I suppose it is a form of due diligence, but really all it produces is a lot of contradictory subjective information from pseudo experts that can make a purchase decision even harder. For me, sound is like beauty, taste, smell or any other sensory judgment. Sure there is a lot of science behind sound reproduction and acoustics but in the end, it all comes down to personal taste.

You can do what I did which was the trial and error method. It took me several years to determine my priorities and then implement those priorities. I chose a DIY approach and over the years, I spent well beyond your budget to get to a sound that pleases me. With your budget flexibility, you may be better off paying an expert (there are some good ones like Keith Yates) to help you create a sound in your space that pleases you. You will need an overall budget of 2 or 3X the speaker budget but the advantage is you will have someone to hold accountable.

That is my $.02 and I think that is a realistic value for the information.

HToM

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post #118 of 264 Old 04-21-2012, 11:01 AM
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To those that mentioned cleaning out your ears. I've used earwax candles several times with good results. Poke it through a paper plate and listen to the snap, crackle and pop for a few mins. When done you can cut into it to see the earwax tar baby that's in there. Cheap, easy and effective.
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post #119 of 264 Old 04-21-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

What did James Carville say? it's like "dragging a $100 bill through a Trailer Park

I have never understood the thought process behind this type of Thread. Throwing a number like $30K out there on a public forum will generate a lot of activity. I suppose it is a form of due diligence, but really all it produces is a lot of contradictory subjective information from pseudo experts that can make a purchase decision even harder. For me, sound is like beauty, taste, smell or any other sensory judgment. Sure there is a lot of science behind sound reproduction and acoustics but in the end, it all comes down to personal taste.

You can do what I did which was the trial and error method. It took me several years to determine my priorities and then implement those priorities. I chose a DIY approach and over the years, I spent well beyond your budget to get to a sound that pleases me. With your budget flexibility, you may be better off paying an expert (there are some good ones like Keith Yates) to help you create a sound in your space that pleases you. You will need an overall budget of 2 or 3X the speaker budget but the advantage is you will have someone to hold accountable.

That is my $.02 and I think that is a realistic value for the information.

A trailer park?! How dare you, sir!
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post #120 of 264 Old 04-21-2012, 01:58 PM
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If you like the vandersteen you had check out 5a or 5a carbons.
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