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post #151 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 01:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

babak - if not mentioned, Salk SoundScape 12's at $16,000 and custom veneered would really light your fire. They will need beefy amps and no, not the Cherry amps mentioned here. I've had 21 different amps since 2006 and have now settled on the TRL Samsons. Not for everyone, but the most musical solid state amps I have owned.

Since 2006 I have owned, in no particular order:

Monarchy SM70 monos
PS Audio GCC500 modified by Underwood
Moscode 401HR
Wyred SX1000 monos
Wyred SX500 monos
Wyred ST250
Dodd 120 monos
BAT VK500
Pass Labs X350.5
Sunfire 600
Rowland 201 monos
Belles 150A Refs as monos
TAD Hibachi monos
Dared VP-20 monos
Cherry 4800A
Cherry Plus
ATI 602
PS Audio Delta 250 monos
Hafler 9130
Hafler SE240
Hafler XL280
Electrocompaniet AW220
Jolida JD202A
AVA something?
Xindak ? 200 wpc
Tube Research Labs Samson monos

In the HT I have not kept as close track and can recall:

Emotiva MPS
Emotiva XPA something
Parasound HCA1206
Wyred SX1000's, 500's, ST250
ATI 1506
ATI1505

WOW Pad you have a lot of experience with various brands of amplifiers. What makes you think the Cherry can't completely power the SoundScape 12?
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post #152 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 01:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

5K for an amp? Are you serious? That is a total waste of money. His money would be better spent on things that actually make an audible difference. Emotive amps are a really good value and you won't be able to hear any difference between them and the cherry's.

If I had the money I'd go

1. Cherry on the used market

2. ATI used or new

3. Emotiva

I've used all three and found they do sound somewhat different. The Cherry has amazing bass and highend whre as the ATI has nice bass but the highend seems to be rolled of at the edge of highfrequency bandwidth. The emos are just a no brainer if you can't afford the others. They don't sound as good or arcurate as the others IMHO but with the prices, it is hard to ignore! (I own seven UPA1 monoblocks)
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post #153 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 01:23 PM
 
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Perhaps the reason the Cherry didn't like your system was the, NO COMMENT, custom speaker cables you claim is woth a $1,000,000 made of solid copper and solid silver!

You know solid copper is a BAD IDEA for various electrical reasons and simply because it's a PITA to work with.

I suggest you take a course at your community college on BASIC physics, electronics and electrical theory.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/dampaugs.htm

Quote:


Capacitance is of concern not so much that it could cause a possible high frequency rolloff but that it can affect the amplifier feedback and cause the leading edge of transients to overshoot. This in turn can make an audible difference in the system sound. It can make the sound brighter, which some audiophiles mistake as greater detail.

High capacitance speaker cable can cause "over shoot" on a lot of amplifiers!
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post #154 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 04:06 PM
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Save yourself a chunk of money, and get JBL Project Array 1400s.

I have these, and they are one of the most realistic-sounding speakers I have ever heard. They will also be excellent for your home theater.

I also have the Array 1500 subwoofers, and an Array 880 center channel, but you probably don't need these for music listening.
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post #155 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

WOW Pad you have a lot of experience with various brands of amplifiers. What makes you think the Cherry can't completely power the SoundScape 12?

Jim Salk and I did a side by comparison between a BAT VK600SE and my Cherry Plus. I loved the Cherry until that day and with SoundScapes in my sites to be owned, the BAT exposed to us rather quickly how the Cherry exaggerated the midrange. The BAT was even througout the ranges from top to bottom. I sold the CHerry the following week and bought a BAT VK500. That was a mighty fine amp and a heater.

In hindsight the Cherry is attractive because the midrange grabs you and pulls you in. When I heard it in comparison I knew I was needing a better solution.
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post #156 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 04:55 PM
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I sweetened the ix with some silver wire. otherwise the cable formula is straight from my electronics manufacturer. I love the results. Worth a million to me! Spent way more on the connectors than the wire. Individually insulated wires reduce skin effect which cannot be avoided in stranded wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

Perhaps the reason the Cherry didn't like your system was the, NO COMMENT, custom speaker cables you claim is woth a $1,000,000 made of solid copper and solid silver!

You know solid copper is a BAD IDEA for various electrical reasons and simply because it's a PITA to work with.

I suggest you take a course at your community college on BASIC physics, electronics and electrical theory.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/dampaugs.htm



High capacitance speaker cable can cause "over shoot" on a lot of amplifiers!

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post #157 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

Jim Salk and I did a side by comparison between a BAT VK600SE and my Cherry Plus. I loved the Cherry until that day and with SoundScapes in my sites to be owned, the BAT exposed to us rather quickly how the Cherry exaggerated the midrange. The BAT was even througout the ranges from top to bottom. I sold the CHerry the following week and bought a BAT VK500. That was a mighty fine amp and a heater.

In hindsight the Cherry is attractive because the midrange grabs you and pulls you in. When I heard it in comparison I knew I was needing a better solution.

As Dennis Erskine has said MANY times, amplifiers are not tone controls.

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #158 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

As Dennis Erskine has said MANY times, amplifiers are not tone controls.

Craig

They certainly should not be tone controls. They often seem to come off that way by being mismatched with certain speakers.
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post #159 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

Jim Salk and I did a side by comparison between a BAT VK600SE and my Cherry Plus. I loved the Cherry until that day and with SoundScapes in my sites to be owned, the BAT exposed to us rather quickly how the Cherry exaggerated the midrange. The BAT was even througout the ranges from top to bottom. I sold the CHerry the following week and bought a BAT VK500. That was a mighty fine amp and a heater.

In hindsight the Cherry is attractive because the midrange grabs you and pulls you in. When I heard it in comparison I knew I was needing a better solution.

The "solution" is knowledge. Better knowledge. Knowledge that a "side by side" comparison is anecdotal at best, tragically misleading at worst.
Knowledge that a NFB-less "audiophile" amplifier driving the complex reactance of a multi-way loudspeaker (SS8), is a recipe for EQ, especially in the mids where the impedance crossover peaks/dips are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

Individually insulated wires reduce skin effect which cannot be avoided in stranded wire.

Once again, knowledge is both the solution and the enemy here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

@Babak - Take a look at what some people who really have the bug are into:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1&ctg

Hi Mike,

While I'm sure you're intent was sincere and to help Babak (which it may yet do), it inadvertently exposes what the real "bug" is, that went into 99% of those systems you linked (yes, I can tell just by looking at the pics).
You see the exact same "bugs" at audio dealerships and shows. It is a great pity you missed Axpona. It would have been a great learning experience for you. Quite different from looking at pictures and anecdotal ramblings.

cheers,

AJ
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post #160 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 05:49 PM
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A pair of Klein & Hummel O 410 is priced around $16k. I won't try to force anything down your throat here, but these speakers are pretty serious. I read that you had a separate budget for room treatments. I wouldn't spend more than a couple of grand on speakers before getting serious about the room. Either do it yourself, or hire Erksine or Seaton to do it for you. No speaker will perform to $20k standards in a **** room.
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post #161 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 06:11 PM
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Babek,

If you have any time left, you should glance at this.

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm
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post #162 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

Babek,

If you have any time left, you should glance at this.

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm



Obviously that power strip tainted every component in the "high end" chain

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post #163 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 06:44 PM
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Obviously that power strip tainted every component in the "high end" chain


Yeah, but when you take that run-o-the-mill Home Depot power strip and cryogenically treat it, it becomes a superconductive clean power distribution system. The unit costs $6 and the treatment is only $500. It's a steal of a deal. You can't see it, but it's there and it's amazing!
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post #164 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

Babek,

If you have any time left, you should glance at this.

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

Thank you mate, I wonder what will hardcore audiophile say about this, I'm sure they will blame something , Or " I can hear the difference hence I am willing to spend $500 on a power cord"
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post #165 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

A pair of Klein & Hummel O 410 is priced around $16k. I won't try to force anything down your throat here, but these speakers are pretty serious. I read that you had a separate budget for room treatments. I wouldn't spend more than a couple of grand on speakers before getting serious about the room. Either do it yourself, or hire Erksine or Seaton to do it for you. No speaker will perform to $20k standards in a **** room.

Mark Seaton builds speakers and subs. Building HT room's is not part of his repertoire.

HToM

"Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?"
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post #166 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 09:59 PM
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I know there was one in NYC last week that I missed, how do I find the other ones, How will I know that there may be one in Indiana or Ohio or Miami , ...

Weekend after June 6 (9th?) Klipsch is having an open house at their corporate offices in Indinapolis, IN.

I don't know if they'll have the Jubilee's there but they will most likely have some Khorns and LaScalas for sure.

Having only heard one line array (as far as I know), it was a head in vice thing.... couldn't move or the sound changed dramatically.

I've been to Danley's in Georgia. Sounded great however, I felt the Klipsch Jubilee not only sounded better but was also less expensive. (no disrespect intended to Danley Co. nor fans)

Do or can you get to Buffalo? How about Westhampton, MA?

I've got a pair of Jubilee's here in Jacksonville. If you are after a pair of knock your socks off speakers, these at 109 db/watt will knock the socks off most people. If you "want" to spend $30K on speakers to be able to say you spent $30K on speakers, then forget it. These are too cost effective. Costing somewhere around $7,500/pair with pretty front panel and not the industrial black like mine.

If instead, you want something that is ultra-dynamic and very cohesive since it's a signal aligned 2-way.... then you would do yourself a favor to give a listen. Peter has already posted some pictures of some. They are not available in that specific finish but can be had in Walnut, Cherry, industrial black or (I'm told) unfinished.
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post #167 of 264 Old 04-22-2012, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Weekend after June 6 (9th?) Klipsch is having an open house at their corporate offices in Indinapolis, IN.

I don't know if they'll have the Jubilee's there but they will most likely have some Khorns and LaScalas for sure.

Having only heard one line array (as far as I know), it was a head in vice thing.... couldn't move or the sound changed dramatically.

I've been to Danley's in Georgia. Sounded great however, I felt the Klipsch Jubilee not only sounded better but was also less expensive. (no disrespect intended to Danley Co. nor fans)

Do or can you get to Buffalo? How about Westhampton, MA?

I've got a pair of Jubilee's here in Jacksonville. If you are after a pair of knock your socks off speakers, these at 109 db/watt will knock the socks off most people. If you "want" to spend $30K on speakers to be able to say you spent $30K on speakers, then forget it. These are too cost effective. Costing somewhere around $7,500/pair with pretty front panel and not the industrial black like mine.

If instead, you want something that is ultra-dynamic and very cohesive since it's a signal aligned 2-way.... then you would do yourself a favor to give a listen. Peter has already posted some pictures of some. They are not available in that specific finish but can be had in Walnut, Cherry, industrial black or (I'm told) unfinished.

No, it's for me and me only, I'm not trying to impress anyone, however I have a bad habit, I can't buy a non flagship product. I always think that a company keeps their best tech for their flagship. It's going to bug the hell of me and will force me to upgrade soon.
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post #168 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 02:06 AM
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Revel Ultima Salon 2s are great speakers.
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post #169 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

No, it's for me and me only, I'm not trying to impress anyone, however I have a bad habit, I can't buy a non flagship product. I always think that a company keeps their best tech for their flagship. It's going to bug the hell of me and will force me to upgrade soon.

Then you'll never be satisfied. Companies continue to change their product line, and you can spend hundreds of thousands on speakers and still not get what is considered "the best". I think you're wasting your money if all your worried about is getting someone's flagship speaker as opposed to getting the best sounding speaker for what you want to spend.

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post #170 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Mark Seaton builds speakers and subs. Building HT room's is not part of his repertoire.

Huh, I thought I read somewhere around here that he helped get someone's room set up with EQ and treatments.
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post #171 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

Huh, I thought I read somewhere around here that he helped get someone's room set up with EQ and treatments.


EQing a system and perhaps suggesting some treatments does not make someone a custom home theater designer/builder. Mark makes speakers and subs (damn good ones at that) and will (for a fee) help setup the system.

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post #172 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Mark Seaton builds speakers and subs. Building HT room's is not part of his repertoire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

Huh, I thought I read somewhere around here that he helped get someone's room set up with EQ and treatments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

EQing a system and perhaps suggesting some treatments does not make someone a custom home theater designer/builder. Mark makes speakers and subs (damn good ones at that) and will (for a fee) help setup the system.

Thank for clarifying RMK. While I have long done calibrations before even starting Seaton Sound, with all I have on my plate with product design and general operations I have cut back to working on systems including my own products, and a bit higher threshold/minimum to justify the time out of the office.

The thread jmichaelf likely had in mind was this one where I helped out a nearby local customer who added 3 SubMersive HP's to his system. As noted, while I have plenty of familiarity with some important priorities, I don't deploy acoustic treatments or work out room layouts nearly as often as I do work on loudspeakers, and leave that to other practitioners.

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post #173 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 01:57 PM
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In hindsight the Cherry is attractive because the midrange grabs you and pulls you in. When I heard it in comparison I knew I was needing a better solution.

Which was the better overall amp (the more accurate one): The Cherry or the Wyred?

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post #174 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

No, it's for me and me only, I'm not trying to impress anyone, however I have a bad habit, I can't buy a non flagship product. I always think that a company keeps their best tech for their flagship. It's going to bug the hell of me and will force me to upgrade soon.

Paul Klipsch designed the Klipschorn 60+ years ago. (give/take a couple weeks ) He pretty mush started it from scratch as best I know. It is one of the longest continueously made speakers made.

He set out now, with what turned out to be almost 50 years of experience behind him to create something better than one of the longest production models around. He wanted to take the Klipschorn back to a 2-way design.


After successfully creating the Jubilee however, he passed away soon after. As I understand, the company didn't want to mess with it for residential use so, they put it into their Cinema lineup. (how impressive is it that a speaker designed for home use, is good enough to go into a cinema lineup?)

I had dinner once with Roy Delgado (PWK's right hand man and co-creator of the Jubilee) and Roy stated that he felt the Jubilee was the pinnacle of sound that Klipsch could provide.

Mind you he's a horn-head so the Palladiums get passed because of the benefits of the bass horn.

Point being.... if you like something with staying power, the Khorn as been around with updates, for decades. Today, you can buy (for less money I might add) the speaker intended to improve and replace it.

My guess is it will be around for a while as well. Especially since it's PWK's last creation.

It's well worth a listen. Heck....call me & I'll hold my cell phone up to them
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post #175 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 05:38 PM
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Thiel makes some damn good speakers in the $12K to $14K price range. In fact the CS3 floorstanders are some of the most dynamic and detailed speakers I have ever listened to at that price. Thiel subs are also generally underrate IMO as well.
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post #176 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 05:47 PM
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Maybe something from these guys

http://www.rockporttechnologies.com/

The Arrakis model was featured on the the DYI Network's Million Dollar contractor show and were part of a $2 million dollar listening room in a large NY apartment for someone from Blackstone. Rumors are it was Bono.

Anyway this model is like a $150K don't know if that's for one or a pair though.

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post #177 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 06:15 PM
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Thiel makes some damn good speakers in the $12K to $14K price range. In fact the CS3 floorstanders are some of the most dynamic and detailed speakers I have ever listened to at that price. Thiel subs are also generally underrate IMO as well.

Good catch. I used to be a Thiel dealer. The CS 3.7 is a great sounding speaker for under half your budget.

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post #178 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 06:25 PM
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Coytee, How is the highs on the Jube's? In the past I 0wned the Heresy, Cornwall and RF7s were as the highs especially with the RF7s was a bit harsh at times.

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post #179 of 264 Old 04-23-2012, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone has any personal experience with Wyred amp , Preamp or DAC ?
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post #180 of 264 Old 04-24-2012, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Anyone has any personal experience with Wyred amp , Preamp or DAC ?

Amps are amps. If it was me, I wouldn't waste the money. Emotive is much less and it'll sound the same.

Television: Mitsubishi WD65737 DLP
Processor: Emotiva UMC-200
Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
Mains: DCM TimeFrame 600 Center: AT 453C
Surrounds: AT 251.1 Sub: Danley DTS-10
Blu Ray: Panasonic DMP-BD655
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