Artison Masterpiece in wall vs Speakercarft AIM Cinema Five - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 04-20-2012, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Artison Masterpiece in wall vs Speakercarft AIM Cinema Five

I have to make a decision between Artisan Masterpiece in wall vs Speakercarft AIM Cinema Five for HT.

Can anyone make a suggestion?

Thanks!
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post #2 of 26 Old 04-21-2012, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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could anyone help me please
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post #3 of 26 Old 04-21-2012, 02:11 PM
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Speakercraft inwalls go a lot lower, and are much more sensitive so they'll get a lot louder on less power. The Artison's are nice but they are more of an on wall speaker where more compromises in sound have been made in order for it to have a thin profile. Have you listened to either?

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post #4 of 26 Old 04-21-2012, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Speakercraft inwalls go a lot lower, and are much more sensitive so they'll get a lot louder on less power. The Artison's are nice but they are more of an on wall speaker where more compromises in sound have been made in order for it to have a thin profile. Have you listened to either?

Thanks!

Artison's speakers also come in a similar in-wall speaker model.

I have no chance to listen Artison. these is no any dealers in my town.

I will probably use them for 100% movies in a independent HT room, which one is more suitable?
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post #5 of 26 Old 04-21-2012, 07:43 PM
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Speakercraft will be much better suited for HT duties. Much more sensitive.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #6 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Speakercraft will be much better suited for HT duties. Much more sensitive.

OK I see.
Thank you!
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post #7 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Speakercraft will be much better suited for HT duties. Much more sensitive.

Sensitivity isn't everything. The Artisan's are acoustic suspension designs. IOW, they have an integral enclosure. The Speakercraft are open backed speakers. I would not want a speaker that has response down to 35 Hz in an "enclosure" made of drywall. Read this:
http://www.cepro.com/article/how_to_...er_systems/D1/

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post #8 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 09:51 AM
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Open backed designs are fine if they are designed well. The cheaper ones aren't, the more expensive ones are. Not to mention the review I read on the Artison's said that they were ok, but they ran out of juice early.

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post #9 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Open backed designs are fine if they are designed well. The cheaper ones aren't, the more expensive ones are. Not to mention the review I read on the Artison's said that they were ok, but they ran out of juice early.

It's not about the quality of the "speaker design". The issue is using drywall and studs as the speaker enclosure. There is no compensation possible in the design of the speaker that can compensate for the huge compromise of using drywall as the speaker baffle. Drywall is porous to sound. A speaker baffle is supposed to be totally non-porous to sound. It's purpose is to separate the front wave from the rear wave. The only way to do that is with a real, integral enclosure, designed for that purpose.

Then add potential for drywall rattles and vibrations, and the huge compromise involved in these unenclosed designs should be obvious. The sound leakage into adjacent spaces is another nuisance byproduct.

Triad makes in-walls with integral enclosures, as well as others. At the OP's price point, there is no reason to consider an in-wall speaker that doesn't have it's own integral enclosure.

Craig

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post #10 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 01:32 PM
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The OP asked which of the two is better. If you have some better alternatives then lets give him some.

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post #11 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 01:58 PM
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I gave him the best one I'm aware of... Triad. Klipsch, Atlantic Technology, Polk and Snell all make THX Ultra2 certified, enclosed in-walls. Def Tech makes an enclosed in-wall that is not THX certified.

I'm sure there are others.

Craig

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post #12 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 02:06 PM
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I don't place a whole lot of faith in something merely because it's THX certified.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #13 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 02:23 PM
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But you put alot of faith on freq. response and sensitivity to determine a speaker? And it's not that much more sensitive.

THX cert. only means that a certain speaker can reach a certain spl range and has a certain dispersion pattern. But they are good starting points if you are looking at a theater system, but no means the only thing to look for.

Like Craig John, I would recommend the OP look at Triad and at Atlantic Technology for other options. Especially at around $1600 a pair.
For eg. The OP can get a pair of Triad in-wall Bronze LCR 4 speakers for $1200 a pair and custom painting is included.


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post #14 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 02:30 PM
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If I had to choose between the 2, I would choose Artisan.
Only because I have herd the SPeakercrafts and wasn't impressed. I haven't heard the Artisans, but the reviews are very good for this speaker.


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post #15 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I don't place a whole lot of faith in something merely because it's THX certified.

Interesting philosophy. I don't want to get into some big THX debate. However, THX *requires* enclosures for a reason. They don't certify any in-wall LCR speakers unless they have enclosures.

Nonetheless, this discussion is about in-wall speakers, and whether enclosures are necessary. The fact that I suggested some in-walls that happen to be THX certified is secondary to the discussion.

Craig

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post #16 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

But you put alot of faith on freq. response and sensitivity to determine a speaker? And it's not that much more sensitive.

THX cert. only means that a certain speaker can reach a certain spl range and has a certain dispersion pattern. But they are good starting points if you are looking at a theater system, but no means the only thing to look for.

Like Craig John, I would recommend the OP look at Triad and at Atlantic Technology for other options. Especially at around $1600 a pair.
For eg. The OP can get a pair of Triad in-wall Bronze LCR 4 speakers for $1200 a pair and custom painting is included.

I don't trust that having something THX certified really does anything for the product other than raise the price . There are quite a few THX certified products out there that I would classify as absolute junk. And just because something complies with a certain standard doesn't necessarily mean it sounds good.

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post #17 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I don't trust that having something THX certified really does anything for the product other than raise the price . There are quite a few THX certified products out there that I would classify as absolute junk. And just because something complies with a certain standard doesn't necessarily mean it sounds good.

So, if a product meets the other requirements, (i.e., high sensitivity, high power handling, flat FR, broad horizontal dispersion, limited vertical dispersion, an LF extension and roll off designed to be used with a specific subwoofer crossover scheme), you would not consider it it simply because it was THX certified?

Craig

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post #18 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

So, if a product meets the other requirements, (i.e., high sensitivity, high power handling, flat FR, broad horizontal dispersion, limited vertical dispersion, an LF extension and roll off designed to be used with a specific subwoofer crossover scheme), you would not consider it it simply because it was THX certified?

Craig

I would consider it but the fact that it is THX certified is merely a sidenote and wouldn't sway my decision one way or another. There is plenty of gear out there that meet THX specs without having the moniker simply because the manufacturer doesn't want to or doesn't feel that it is a good investment in the pricepoint of their product.

The Triads are a good suggestion BTW.

And I do like the idea of closed back inwalls because they won't radiate nearly as much sound into the adjacent room.

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post #19 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 06:05 PM
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This thread has a lot of info about THX. Rather than re-hash the subject, I'll just link it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=thx

Craig

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post #20 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

This thread has a lot of info about THX. Rather than re-hash the subject, I'll just link it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=thx

Craig

Read it, and participated in the thread. THX certification has its place with consumers that don't want to put the effort into evaluating a components specs. It is an easy way to tell if it meets certain criteria, I'll give you that. But I prefer to do it the old fashioned way. Maybe I'm a bit of a Luddite in that respect.

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post #21 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 06:36 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post19971379

This post puts it in perspective:

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I have a good friend who is in a "knowlegeable" position in a loudspeaker company that sells several speaker lines that are THX certified. I e-mailed him and asked how much the certification adds to the cost of a product. He replied extensively, although he didn't, (and couldn't due to confidentiality issues), answer the question. However, he did provide some significant insight into the THX testing process. He has said I can post his response here, but that I should not identify him or his company. Here is the exchange I've had with him, (edited to remove any identifying information):



Quote:


Hi *********,

It was great meeting you at CEDIA last fall. I hope you enjoyed the show as much as I did.

I have a question for you about THX certification. About how much is added to the price of the a speaker system for them to be THX certified? I didn't think it was that much, but I was just curious.

Anyway, have a great day.

Craig

____________________________________________________________ _____


Hi Craig,

I apologize for the delay in answering. I was traveling for the past week and I haven't gotten to all my e-mails.

THX certification costs the manufacturer money, no question. The manufacturer makes a marketing decision about which products in their line will benefit from having THX certification and goes from there.

There is a cost involved in the actual lab testing by THX to run the evaluation. Most often, the product doesn't pass the first time out of the gate, so it has to be re-engineered and re-submitted. There are freight costs, engineering/time costs, additional lab costs, etc.

Once it receives THX certification, there is a per-product fee involved that the manufacturer pays to THX for each unit they sell. Some manufacturers consider this per-product fee as part of the product's material cost. When the manufacturer figures out their selling price vs. cost-of-goods, they factor in the THX fee, along with the cabinet, the crossover, the drivers, the carton, etc.

Some manufacturers consider the THX fee separately, apart from the cost-of-goods, so their selling price is based strictly on the actual material costs of the product. In that case, the THX fee is considered a marketing expense, like advertising costs or literature printing costs, or trade show expenses, etc.

So it will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer as to how they account for THX expenses and how directly those expenses impact the actual selling price of a given product.

THX is a very, very tough standard. They really hold your feet to the fire,' and their testing facilities and methods are first-rate. It is no rubber-stamp gimmie' that's available just by waving a few dollars under their noses, that's for sure!

Most manufacturers find that general market awareness of and customer/installer appreciation of THX certification occurs with the mid-high end products.

Best regards,

********
____________________________________________________________ _____

Hi *********,

Thanks for the response. Very informative. To my original question, I realize you can't give exact figures, and that the costs are probably confidential. However, can you estimate a percentage cost, such as 5% or 10% of the total product cost? I'm just looking for an estimate.

Also, do you mind if I post your reply on-line? I won't if you would prefer, or I won't identify you as the source, if you would prefer that. There are some of skeptic's online stating that the value of THX certification is dubious, and that one can build a non-THX system that is at least as good for less money, or do better for the same cost. I am trying to express to them the value of the certification.

Thanks for your on-going help and support.

Craig
____________________________________________________________ _____

Hi Craig,

It would be difficult to assign a specific dollar figure or percentage of a speaker's cost to its THX certification, and in any event, our internal costs areas you observedconfidential.

But a speaker's retail price would certainly be in the exact same neighborhood, whether or not it had THX certification.

THX certification is not dubious, or suspicious' or nefarious' or underhanded' or anything else a skeptic' may assign to it. It is simply a very stringent performance verification that is confirmed by an independent testing laboratory, using industry-accepted engineering measurement/evaluation methods.

THX doesn't do or espouse anything weird' or strange or unusual. They measure frequency response. They measure dispersion, both H and V. They measure SPL output and distortion, and many other performance characteristics. Their test program and methodology is very strict, unrelenting and comprehensive. It's a matter of well-deserved professional engineering pride when a product is bestowed with THX certification.

If a particular company elects not to undergo THX testing/certification, that's fine. Good engineering is good engineering, and hundreds of truly excellent products are designed and produced each year that do not go through the THX testing/certification process. The decision of THX Y/N? is often a marketing decision, based on that manufacturer's customer base and what appeals to them.

As previously stated, the decision not to have one's products THX-certified is a decision made by any given company individually, based on their goals and needs.

But make no mistakethere is nothing about THX testing or THX certification that makes those products different' or strange.' But you can, absolutely, be certain that a THX-certified product meets very high objective standards of performance, tested in an industry-agreed manner. You can probably be certain that a non-THX product from a highly credible, long-standing manufacturer of unimpeachable reputation is also quite good. But you cannot be similarly certain about other products. Maybe yes, maybe no.

Cost is not a central, driving factor in the THX certification decision process.

You may post my responses, but do not use my name or company.

Thanks,

***********


I thought a manufacturer's perspective on THX certification would be beneficial to the conversation.

Craig


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post #22 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 07:31 PM
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It all looks nice but it still doesn't guarantee it sounds good just because it meets THX specs.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #23 of 26 Old 04-22-2012, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

It all looks nice but it still doesn't guarantee it sounds good just because it meets THX specs.

Do you really think THX certifies stuff that sounds bad?

Don't bother responding. You've presented your opinion about it. I've presented my thoughts. I'm obviously not going to convince you, and anyone else reading along can make up their own mind.

wsheng, sorry we took your thread so far off topic. To get back on topic, I reiterate that, IMO, you would be much better served by in-walls with integral enclosures.

Craig

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post #24 of 26 Old 04-23-2012, 04:58 AM
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No, I never said that. But, you're right, we'll have to agree to disagree and we're not helping the OP. The Triads or Atlantics are good recommendations. See? I like THX certified speakers!

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post #25 of 26 Old 04-24-2012, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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craig john and flyng_fool,

thanks for your kind, i have learnt from you so much by the thread.

Now,i understand that the in-wall speaker needs a integral enclosures for good sound.

But, if i choose speakercraft, can i DIY the enclosures to achieve the same goal?
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post #26 of 26 Old 04-24-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsheng View Post

craig john and flyng_fool,

thanks for your kind, i have learnt from you so much by the thread.

Now,i understand that the in-wall speaker needs a integral enclosures for good sound.

But, if i choose speakercraft, can i DIY the enclosures to achieve the same goal?

Not really, because it's designed to operate without one. Plus, designing an enclosure tales into account many, many factors which is difficult for a novice to do. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it requires a lot of time and effort to do correctly. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache by just buying one that already has the back on it. Look at the ones Craig suggested, they are really good ones and I don't think they're too much more than the ones you were already looking at.

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