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post #1 of 36 Old 05-04-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I just bought Yamaha NS-6490 bookshelf speakers today,i played music for two hours and they sounded good.
Tonight i was watching tv and my 2 year old son turned the volume all the way up on my Denon AVR 391.After this my music doesn't sound as good as before,bass is still there but highs and middles are not as crisp as they were before.

My Denon is rated 100w a speaker and my Yamaha's are 140w max and 70w normal operation.
These Yamaha's are 3 way speakers,i checked the speakers and they are intact.I don't know much about speakers,can you tell me are they blown,or my tweeters are blown,or maybe the channel splitter is fried out or something else?All i know is they just don't sound as good as earlier today,and i have good ears so i know it not just in my head.

Would turning the volume all the way up during a movie on my Denon could have damaged them in any way?

Thanx in advance.
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post #2 of 36 Old 05-04-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

I just bought Yamaha NS-6490 bookshelf speakers today,i played music for two hours and they sounded good.
Tonight i was watching tv and my 2 year old son turned the volume all the way up on my Denon AVR 391.After this my music doesn't sound as good as before,bass is still there but highs and middles are not as crisp as they were before.

My Denon is rated 100w a speaker and my Yamaha's are 140w max and 70w normal operation.
These Yamaha's are 3 way speakers,i checked the speakers and they are intact.I don't know much about speakers,can you tell me are they blown,or my tweeters are blown,or maybe the channel splitter is fried out or something else?All i know is they just don't sound as good as earlier today,and i have good ears so i know it not just in my head.

Would turning the volume all the way up during a movie on my Denon could have damaged them in any way?

Thanx in advance.

Quite possibly. Like was it an action scene? Did you hear any clipping when he did?

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post #3 of 36 Old 05-04-2012, 08:59 PM
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Your Denon may be rated to 100w but it'll struggle to make half that. The most common cause of blown speakers played at high levels is from low power amplifiers.

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #4 of 36 Old 05-04-2012, 09:00 PM
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Doing a quick check on the 391 specs, it's more like 75w for full range FR (and that's still probably a fantasy number to an extent altho for that AVR probably closer than some), higher when using single frequency (110). So perhaps someone turning things up to eleven could damage stuff, since your speakers might be rated for 70w continuous. Distortion/clipping can do damage. Don't let the kids touch the good stuff...

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post #5 of 36 Old 05-05-2012, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Doing a quick check on the 391 specs, it's more like 75w for full range FR (and that's still probably a fantasy number to an extent altho for that AVR probably closer than some), higher when using single frequency (110). So perhaps someone turning things up to eleven could damage stuff, since your speakers might be rated for 70w continuous. Distortion/clipping can do damage. Don't let the kids touch the good stuff...

Yeah I think they are blown because when I push the main speaker driver in with my finger it sound better,but when I remove my hand I get the distortion back.
You are probably right Denon is lower than 100w in real life but I also think that Yamahas is probably lower than 70w in real life usage.

Do you think that 3rd party seller will take them back from amazon?I stated that one of the drivers wasnt working,waiting for reply from them.
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post #6 of 36 Old 05-05-2012, 01:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

I just bought Yamaha NS-6490 bookshelf speakers today,i played music for two hours and they sounded good.
Tonight i was watching tv and my 2 year old son turned the volume all the way up on my Denon AVR 391.After this my music doesn't sound as good as before,bass is still there but highs and middles are not as crisp as they were before.

My Denon is rated 100w a speaker and my Yamaha's are 140w max and 70w normal operation.
These Yamaha's are 3 way speakers,i checked the speakers and they are intact.I don't know much about speakers,can you tell me are they blown,or my tweeters are blown,or maybe the channel splitter is fried out or something else?All i know is they just don't sound as good as earlier today,and i have good ears so i know it not just in my head.

Would turning the volume all the way up during a movie on my Denon could have damaged them in any way?

Thanx in advance.

One of the best ways to tell if your speaker is blown is to listen to how it sounds at LOW volume. If it sounds bad at low volume, your speaker is pretty much shot.
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post #7 of 36 Old 05-05-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post


Do you think that 3rd party seller will take them back from amazon?I stated that one of the drivers wasnt working,waiting for reply from them.

It isn't his fault you blew the drivers. Take responsibility and replace them at your own cost. Don't be dishonest.

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post #8 of 36 Old 05-07-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Yeah I think they are blown because when I push the main speaker driver in with my finger it sound better,but when I remove my hand I get the distortion back.
You are probably right Denon is lower than 100w in real life but I also think that Yamahas is probably lower than 70w in real life usage.

Do you think that 3rd party seller will take them back from amazon?I stated that one of the drivers wasnt working,waiting for reply from them.

If your kid caused the problem why is that the seller's problem?

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post #9 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

If your kid caused the problem why is that the seller's problem?

Because speakers are rated 70w constant and 130w maximum,my Denon(100w a channel) was only little past half volume,so those speakers should have been able to handle that receiver even if it was all the way up-but they did not.
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post #10 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Because speakers are rated 70w constant and 130w maximum,my Denon(100w a channel) was only little past half volume,so those speakers should have been able to handle that receiver even if it was all the way up-but they did not.

No, it doesn't necessarily work that way but you're welcome to give it a shot but if I were the retailer I would say sorry that's your problem (see if it's covered in your warranty, too). Read up on speaker impedance and amplifier output ratings and how distortion affects speakers for a start...but keep kids away from the good stuff.

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post #11 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

No, it doesn't necessarily work that way but you're welcome to give it a shot but if I were the retailer I would say sorry that's your problem (see if it's covered in your warranty, too). Read up on speaker impedance and amplifier output ratings and how distortion affects speakers for a start...but keep kids away from the good stuff.


Question,if i get infinity's P363's will i be able to crank my denon all the way up without having to worry about my speakers getting damaged?
Or there is still a chance that some high pitch voice on tv can damage them or any other speaker?
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post #12 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Question,if i get infinity's P363's will i be able to crank my denon all the way up without having to worry about my speakers getting damaged?
Or there is still a chance that some high pitch voice on tv can damage them or any other speaker?

How high are you trying to listen. That receiver won't be able to get you to reference

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #13 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

How high are you trying to listen. That receiver won't be able to get you to reference

What do you mean "Get you to reference"?

I live in the appartment so not too high,my volume never goes past half way,but im asking in case my son(i have to many remotes and my son is to young to understand yet) turns it up again when im not there.
Blowing $100 speakers i can deal with but blowing p363 is another story,lol.
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post #14 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 07:23 PM
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post #15 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Try this for reference level https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...eference-level

Denon avr391 doesnt have Audessey.Plus my primary purpose for speakers is music and not movies-my girlfriend does most of the movie watching and she doesnt care about sound quality.

So for jazz music i should set my speakers to 10db and that is good for movies also?I have to check if my receiver has those setting,i have very basic denon,i should have spent extra $200 for a better one with Audessey.
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post #16 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Denon avr391 doesnt have Audessey.Plus my primary purpose for speakers is music and not movies-my girlfriend does most of the movie watching and she doesnt care about sound quality.

So for jazz music i should set my speakers to 10db and that is good for movies also?I have to check if my receiver has those setting,i have very basic denon,i should have spent extra $200 for a better one with Audessey.

Read this one too http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...t-1294629.html

Don't listen based on number but what level you like (and your neighbors will tolerate...reference is pretty dang loud), but there is a definition behind "reference". Sorry to hear your girlfriend doesn't appreciate good sound quality, but it really enhances listening to music or movies. Your AVR I'm not particularly familiar with nor how it displays db levels (it's probably in the manual, but I've heard the Denon manuals can be a bit obtuse so you might search the forum for batpig's translation of the Denon manuals' version of english).

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post #17 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 08:35 PM
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It's the clipping that will destroy the speakers, so turning the receiver all the way up will most likely kill them if the receiver doesn't shut down first.
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post #18 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Because speakers are rated 70w constant and 130w maximum,my Denon(100w a channel) was only little past half volume,so those speakers should have been able to handle that receiver even if it was all the way up-but they did not.

Someone needs to throw an iced down bucket of Gatorade on you, because you are an audio superstar.

I'm just kidding.
My confession: I did the same thing years ago (but I never told anyone)

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post #19 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

Someone needs to throw an iced down bucket of Gatorade on you, because you are an audio superstar.

I'm just kidding.
My confession: I did the same thing years ago (but I never told anyone)

Lol,im just doing the math in my head.If one speaker can handle constant 70w and my receiver which is 100w(on paper brob 80w in reality) was turned up little bit over half its volume(60-70w) then that speaker should be able to handle it-in theory.

When i first got them i played music on them about same level and everything was fine.But when my son turned it up during Little Einsteins cartoon,i think it was too much treble in the action that did it.Or maybe my cablebox put out more volume than my ps3 that i use for music.

After reading my Denon's instructions for 10th time,there is volume limiter that is buried inside "impossible to navigate though" settings,so i shouldn't have that problem again.Man,denon needs to hire new people for their ui.

Can anyone explain to me what 70w constant and 130w max mean for speakers?I have an idea but not 100% sure.
And one more question,will 3way speakers always sound better than 2way,or 2way can be better than 3way sometimes?
Thats the reason i got these Yamaha's instead of infinity's 153's,which ones ya think are better?
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post #20 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Lol,im just doing the math in my head.If one speaker can handle constant 70w and my receiver which is 100w(on paper brob 80w in reality) was turned up little bit over half its volume(60-70w) then that speaker should be able to handle it-in theory.

When i first got them i played music on them about same level and everything was fine.But when my son turned it up during Little Einsteins cartoon,i think it was too much treble in the action that did it.Or maybe my cablebox put out more volume than my ps3 that i use for music.

After reading my Denon's instructions for 10th time,there is volume limiter that is buried inside "impossible to navigate though" settings,so i shouldn't have that problem again.Man,denon needs to hire new people for their ui.

Can anyone explain to me what 70w constant and 130w max mean for speakers?I have an idea but not 100% sure.
And one more question,will 3way speakers always sound better than 2way,or 2way can be better than 3way sometimes?
Thats the reason i got these Yamaha's instead of infinity's 153's,which ones ya think are better?


Not really an Amp expert so I'll let the pros go at it

Regarding 2 way 3 way, either sound great. Really depends on how its design and the crossover. A poorly designed 2.5/3 way speaker probably won't sound as good as a good 2 way speaker.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #21 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Lol,im just doing the math in my head.If one speaker can handle constant 70w and my receiver which is 100w(on paper brob 80w in reality) was turned up little bit over half its volume(60-70w) then that speaker should be able to handle it-in theory.

When i first got them i played music on them about same level and everything was fine.But when my son turned it up during Little Einsteins cartoon,i think it was too much treble in the action that did it.Or maybe my cablebox put out more volume than my ps3 that i use for music.

After reading my Denon's instructions for 10th time,there is volume limiter that is buried inside "impossible to navigate though" settings,so i shouldn't have that problem again.Man,denon needs to hire new people for their ui.

Can anyone explain to me what 70w constant and 130w max mean for speakers?I have an idea but not 100% sure.
And one more question,will 3way speakers always sound better than 2way,or 2way can be better than 3way sometimes?
Thats the reason i got these Yamaha's instead of infinity's 153's,which ones ya think are better?

Some receivers have a max volume setting that the user sets to his liking. This might help if you have this feature, for those times when other people are using the gear. An amplifier, regardless of its power capabilities, can distort the signal being feed to the speakers, if pushed too much. Distortion, (and some listeners don't hear it) can damage speakers. If you google "amplifier clipping", perhaps the light bulb in your head will go off when you begin to understand amplifier power. Every pair of speakers creates a different load on the amplifier. So the higher the speakers sensitivity, the louder it will play. The lower the sensitivity, the harder the amp will have to work. You can't assume that because your speakers will handle 100 watts RMS(continuously), that 70 watts will never cause damage.

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post #22 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Lol,im just doing the math in my head.If one speaker can handle constant 70w and my receiver which is 100w(on paper brob 80w in reality) was turned up little bit over half its volume(60-70w) then that speaker should be able to handle it-in theory.

No.

Quote:


Can anyone explain to me what 70w constant and 130w max mean for speakers?I have an idea but not 100% sure.

It can handle the test signal defined by the IEC to approximate an average musical power spectrum which is pink noise with peaks 4X the power of the average level, a second order high-pass filter at 40Hz, and a second order low-pass filter at 5KHz where a second order filter means each additional octave sees power dropping by a factor of 4.

There are 7 octaves from 40Hz to 5KHz and the cross-over between midrange and tweeter is usually 2.5KHz or higher so it's getting less than 1/7th of the total power and with a 70W rating could be assumed to handle 10W.

When you turn up the gain the low frequencies start clipping first and stop getting louder. The high frequencies which were lower in amplitude take longer to reach their limit and you can feed the tiny little tweeter a lot more than 10W.
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post #23 of 36 Old 05-10-2012, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVIV73 View Post

Question,if i get infinity's P363's will i be able to crank my denon all the way up without having to worry about my speakers getting damaged?

No.

If you turn the volume all the way up you're likely to damage most speakers.

If you act like a sober adult and stop trying to turn the volume after it sounds bad you won't.

The volume control adjusts gain, or how much the input signal is multiplied, not power.

Since the preamp needs to be able to make quiet recordings audible there's usually enough gain to try to make a strong input signal at least 4X what the amplifier is capable of delivering.

The low frequencies which are louder in a musical signal run into the limits first and stop getting louder, the high frequencies which were quieter can keep getting louder, and eventually you melt the tweeter voice coils.
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post #24 of 36 Old 05-11-2012, 03:31 AM
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I think the part you are missing is THD. Total Harmonic Distortion. You amp is rated at a certain amount of watts at a certain THD. It can go above that with more distortion. Problem is that this can be indepandant of volume control. So all the way up is not the rated power and half way is not half of that. The speakers did not blow because of the power (watts) sent to them but because the power was distorted/clipping. The speakers are rated to handle a certain amount of watts at a low distortion level.

My review comparisons of Energy RC-70s to Veritas V6.3 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21199418
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post #25 of 36 Old 05-11-2012, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy View Post

I think the part you are missing is THD. Total Harmonic Distortion. You amp is rated at a certain amount of watts at a certain THD. It can go above that with more distortion. Problem is that this can be indepandant of volume control. So all the way up is not the rated power and half way is not half of that. The speakers did not blow because of the power (watts) sent to them but because the power was distorted/clipping. The speakers are rated to handle a certain amount of watts at a low distortion level.

This is a very helpful reply. I was just following along in this thread slightly confused, but - at least for me - the reminder about THD made the "lightbulb come on".
I think some of us newbies don't recognize that the power numbers don't mean "it can only put out this much power".

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post #26 of 36 Old 05-11-2012, 05:22 AM
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I know there are some receivers like some Pioneer receivers that have a volume limit setting so you can't turn it up past the volume limit. That is something you should look into, that way depending on the setting you should be able to get it so you won't blow the speakers.
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post #27 of 36 Old 05-11-2012, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy View Post

I think the part you are missing is THD. Total Harmonic Distortion. You amp is rated at a certain amount of watts at a certain THD. It can go above that with more distortion. Problem is that this can be indepandant of volume control. So all the way up is not the rated power and half way is not half of that. The speakers did not blow because of the power (watts) sent to them but because the power was distorted/clipping. The speakers are rated to handle a certain amount of watts at a low distortion level.

Oh,i see what youre saying,denon is rate 100w of clear sound output but it can go way beyond that but it wont be clear but distorted?So thats why people get receivers with more watts,not because they need all that power but because they can play at higher levels without distortion and that prevents cliping and speakers being damaged,did I get it right?
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post #28 of 36 Old 05-11-2012, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

I know there are some receivers like some Pioneer receivers that have a volume limit setting so you can't turn it up past the volume limit. That is something you should look into, that way depending on the setting you should be able to get it so you won't blow the speakers.

Yeah my denon does have that feature,i.mentioned it earlier in this post,im deffinetly gonna use it.I wonder if it has any negative effects on sound?I know that automatic volume adjustment(smart sound) is not good for music.
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post #29 of 36 Old 05-11-2012, 07:55 AM
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Are they good quality? I just bought a pair, but didn't get to hear them first. it was at a yard sale. I hope they aren't blown. I took a chance on buying them.
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post #30 of 36 Old 05-11-2012, 07:56 AM
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sorry I meant to post that in my own post. I haven't got any sleep yet. I am tired
keyboardcat is offline  
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