Speakers ~$10K for rock, alternative and some pop. Not Jazz or Classical. - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 10:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Veda View Post

If I tell you that your speaker or any other's sounds crappy in my room then there's nothing you can do about it regardless of how well it measures because a crappy room will make a crappy sound.

But you're not telling me that. Instead, you are telling and showing us that speakers with poor global response sound crappy in your room. What a shocker.

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Originally Posted by Veda View Post

And my ears are of course better than yours LOL. How much are your speakers btw? Why so defensive about expensive speakers sounding bad?

Defensive??? I'm glad that many do!
....And as long as their designers remain as mired in the dark to psycho-acoustics, as you have chosen to remain, then there will be hope for my ilk as well.
As I stated earlier, to each his own. Enjoy.

cheers,

AJ
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post #272 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

It's unfortunate. It's what happens when ideologues can't put their egos aside in order to simply have fun and share in an enjoyable, highly subjective hobby that includes an incredibly broad spectrum of thought.

Last month I asked where I can get an amp with a specific chipset and the same people I've seen from the 90's came out and started arguing to each other whether my choice is a wise one. Not single one replied and told me where to get it. We got some really lonely people out there. Kinda scary really...

Dude AJ just drop it. I never mentioned any speaker with poor global response so go back and reread I think you mistaken me for someone else, but don't bother replying back. Thanks.
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post #273 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

It's unfortunate. It's what happens when ideologues can't put their egos aside in order to simply have fun and share in an enjoyable, highly subjective hobby that includes an incredibly broad spectrum of thought.

Ideally, subjectivity and contention will be removed from the process entirely. I can imagine the collective sigh of relief the world breathed when we found out spheres roll and cubes don't.
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post #274 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 10:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Dude AJ just drop it. I never mentioned any speaker with poor global response

Oh but you did. You were just blissfully unaware of it.

"My systems"

You reap what you sow.

cheers,

AJ
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post #275 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post





Thanks. Case closed.

Again, what specifically in that graph do you feel needs to be fixed? I'm not a mind reader, but your full of vague comments ad questions. Why not put a little more effort and clarification in your questions without leaving tons of loose ends.

So whats more important: This graph? John Atkensen's statement that the measurements taken(which include this graph)are fantastic, or what the actual end user feels or more specifically hears in his/her own room or how the product is implemented?

Yeah.....cased closed.


BTW how should we take your "True RTA" measurement of your hybrid speaker using Kef's UniQ driver and xover? The plot you use is incomplete/narrowband and uses a measurement microphone thats not even accurate. LOL!
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post #276 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 11:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

I'm not a mind reader

We know. You are a "fixer" of loudspeakers.

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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Again, what specifically in that graph do you feel needs to be fixed?

Nothing, according to you. No need to belabor the point. It has very clearly been made. I thank you for your assistance.

cheers,

AJ
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post #277 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

Ideally, subjectivity and contention will be removed from the process entirely. I can imagine the collective sigh of relief the world breathed when we found out spheres roll and cubes don't.

I'm projecting that happening sometime after the machines take over the Earth.
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post #278 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 01:30 PM
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Define irony: forum members on the Audio Video Science Forum making fun of the science part of the hobby. Shrug

In the end all that matters is how our systems sound to us, but I'm not foolish enough to discard all the science behind this hobby. Without the science there would be no hobby, or it would nothing but "my system is better than your system" threads.


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Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Dudes the OP wanted some recommendations for a pair of 10K speakers. Instead you guys turned this into a scientific orgy fest, wtf!

Seriously people, you guys got nothing better to do than to derail a thread like this? Is this a matter of life and death? This is your source of income? Or just a bunch of nerds trying to get some existence in life? I really wonder...

Get a dose of humility people!

Of which you willingly participated it. This is a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black.

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post #279 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 01:55 PM
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ntrain96,

It's amusing how your last few posts have belabored the point about the lack of linear power response measurements in the industry while you blithely chose to ignore my requests for that very thing when claiming that monitors/bookshelf speakers are just as good or better than floorstanding designs.

Just to refresh your memory, I stated that I've measured my previous setup to see if it was compressing or distorting at the maximum THX Reference levels I might occasionally demand of them. I took measurements at the MLP at 75db, 85db, 95db and 105db 10 feet away and the graphs all traced each other, giving me the confidence that each of my front 3 speakers could play flat at THX Reference levels without compression, distortion or clipping.

I also stated that I've measured monitor speakers and NONE so far that I've ever encountered could continue playing flat at higher volumes. Since you claimed that your monitors could hit 110db with an 'accurate SPL meter', I mentioned that unless you measure full frequency sweeps at increasing db levels, you would never know if the sound power response of the speakers is still flat at those volumes or if the SPL meter is merely catching the peaks in an uneven frequency response.

I asked if YOU could produce FR measurements proving that YOUR system could play flat to those volumes at a normal listening distance and of course, you chose to ignore that, as you have continually ignored EVERY request to prove or confirm what you've been spouting.



Max
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post #280 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post


Seriously people, you guys got nothing better to do than to derail a thread like this? Is this a matter of life and death? This is your source of income? Or just a bunch of nerds trying to get some existence in life? I really wonder...

I've been watching movies all day long on my day off work.

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post #281 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

To me, if a speaker only does one particular genre really well, it's a flawed design from the get-go. A well designed speaker should be able to handle anything you throw at it.

Excellent POV, that´s what I also think.

BTW I prefer much more for rock and metal especially big speakers. That not means the sound will be the best but for high levels I think It´s the way to go. For that having a budget of USD10K maybe the best deal for these genres is the JBL array which feats big bass woofer. Other great option if found second hand are the B&W 801D. Even the poster hasnt liked the sound of BW this specific model seems to have a great sound and is able to play everything. Just check it out some vids of this channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/highendrules/videos
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post #282 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I've been watching movies all day long on my day off work.

I've been here taking up your slack watching the audiophools carry on. You haven't missed much.

Now I wonder what kind of job I should have pursued, to have three pairs of mighty fine speakers there for my whimsical fantasies.

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post #283 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 04:54 PM
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Some seem to be forgetting that each person's physical hearing system is constructed a bit differently from every other person's system, so to person "A" a speaker with flat response may sound awesome, but to person "B" with a heightened sensitivity to the upper frequencies that same speaker may sound brittle and plain unpleasant.

Again, chart and measurements are a nice place to start, but they most definitely should NOT be the sole method with which to choose a speaker.
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post #284 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 05:03 PM
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OP, if you just want good sound, you could dig around for a pair (a quad?) of these:

"Infinity Reference Standard 1B loudspeaker"


Sure they're "mature" speakers by now, but good is good I say.

Or something more, ah, recent:

Infinity Prelude
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post #285 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I am a bit wary to post anything controversial based on the side tracks this thread has taken, but I do believe there are studio monitors (extreme high detail) and high end hifi that are different. Kef just released a speaker based on the R100 that fits more in the studio monitor role (clinical) where the R100 is hifi. Thus, I am not sure I agree that a great speaker should fit all genres. But I will be the first to admit my experience is limited as I took a 18 year hiatus on the audiophile journey (because of the B&W 801 Matrix Series 3).

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #286 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Some seem to be forgetting that each person's physical hearing system is constructed a bit differently from every other person's system, so to person "A" a speaker with flat response may sound awesome, but to person "B" with a heightened sensitivity to the upper frequencies that same speaker may sound brittle and plain unpleasant.

Again, chart and measurements are a nice place to start, but they most definitely should NOT be the sole method with which to choose a speaker.

Apparently, there are 2 schools of thought with regards to speakers:
1 group is the Reference group. The basic philosophy for this group is simple: Start with the most accurate speakers you can get. You want the speakers to NOT color or alter the sound of the recording. You then adjust placement, room treatments and finally EQ, to ensure that you get the most accurate audio reproduction possible. THEN, if you decide there is, for instance, too much high frequency in your room with little absorption and lots of reflective surfaces, you can tweak the EQ from there to your preference.

If you begin with a flawed speaker with say, a midrange dip at 1500Hz and a steep rolloff above 10k, voices will sound squawky and cymbals will not have that realistic high frequency shimmer. If the speaker design and build is the reason for the uneven response, there is little you can do about it with EQ'ing, aside from ripping the speakers apart and completely rebuilding them. Why buy flawed speakers in the first place?

The equivalent in the video world would be folks who look for the display that has the best grayscale tracking, most accurate color reproduction to REC709, highest contrast ratio and great off axis viewing, vs. the folks going, "I like blue. That set is bright and very blue. THAT'S the one I'm getting". The set may have abysmal grayscale tracking, obviously flawed color accuracy and terrible off axis viewing, but then the owners will try to convince people that it's a great buy and that everyone's eyes see color differently anyway.

If you want a display that can make everything blue, you can skew the accurate set to do that, but on the flipside, you can't take the crappy display and make it accurate because it's inherently flawed.

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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I am a bit wary to post anything controversial based on the side tracks this thread has taken, but I do believe there are studio monitors (extreme high detail) and high end hifi that are different. Kef just released a speaker based on the R100 that fits more in the studio monitor role (clinical) where the R100 is hifi. Thus, I am not sure I agree that a great speaker should fit all genres. But I will be the first to admit my experience is limited as I took a 18 year hiatus on the audiophile joourney (because of the B&W 801 Matrix Series 3).

I have accurate systems for 2-channel, HT surround sound AND a separate accurate calibrated setup of nearfield monitors for studio mixing. Properly calibrated and EQ'ed setups tend to sound much more alike than not. EQ'ed systems with fairly flat responses will all be quite revealing and accurate. The difference is that the nearfield monitors (with proper placement and lots of acoustic treatment as well) allow you to focus on the track itself much more without the influence of the room. They're also engineered and designed for optimal frequency response in the nearfield (or midfield for some of the bigger monitors).


Max
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post #287 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 06:34 PM
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Well, as already mentioned, the most important test and the one that truly matters is the actual audition.

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post #288 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 06:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I am a bit wary to post anything controversial based on the side tracks this thread has taken, but I do believe there are studio monitors (extreme high detail) and high end hifi that are different. Kef just released a speaker based on the R100 that fits more in the studio monitor role (clinical) where the R100 is hifi.

Hi Jim,

Those are psychological, not physical stereotypes, with some notable exceptions.
An inanimate object like a loudspeaker cannot possible know whether the voltage across its terminals are music, movie or studio soundtracks. It will simply produce soundwaves from that voltage, the psychological impact of the produced soundfield is another matter entirely.
The only thing "clinical" about a studio loudspeaker, is (generally/modern competent designs) a lack of grotesque distortions, that add "excitement" to the sound of "hifi" speakers, example shown below:

That and the fact that they(Studio monitors) have staid plain finishes, instead of the "hifi" bling look, is usually more than enough to cause the audiophile mind to perceive all sorts of negatives and positives for each genre. However, a strange thing happens when the preconceived biases and "bling" factor are remove from the equation. Under such circumstances, the vast majority of listeners, forced to do the audiophile credo (misnomer), i.e "listen with their ears", actually prefer the "Studio" type response and eschew the "excitement" of the "hifi" stuff...like the B&W. This is actually consistent and repeatable.
However, we don't listen minus per-conceived notions/visual biases at home.
Thus there are companies that create the "studio" uniform soundfield (minus the "excitement/musicality" response of the B&W et al) and include the desired bling. Companies such as Revel do just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Thus, I am not sure I agree that a great speaker should fit all genres. But I will be the first to admit my experience is limited as I took a 18 year hiatus on the audiophile journey (because of the B&W 801 Matrix Series 3).

Oh dear.
Well, much has transpired on the psycho-acoustics front since then. the best way to find out, as stated previously, is to get out and listen for yourself. You have a pretty nice list going, minus the few warts. Surrounding (?) dealerships are a start. Local audiophiles willing to demo. Perhaps a hifi show like CAF or RMAF, etc allows for even greater selection/comparison, caveats included. Anything but cyberdreaming.
Ultimately you should decide with your ears (and eyes!), not by the anecdotes of others. Best o luck.

cheers,

AJ
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post #289 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I have accurate systems for 2-channel, HT surround sound AND a separate accurate calibrated setup of nearfield monitors for studio mixing. Properly calibrated and EQ'ed setups tend to sound much more alike than not. EQ'ed systems with fairly flat responses will all be quite revealing and accurate. The difference is that the nearfield monitors (with proper placement and lots of acoustic treatment as well) allow you to focus on the track itself much more without the influence of the room. They're also engineered and designed for optimal frequency response in the nearfield (or midfield for some of the bigger monitors).


Max

Max, Thanks for that elaboration. I am copied a post below from the UK "AV Forum" by Dav1dF on the Kef R Series Thread Part 2
............................................................ ..........................................
"I spent a bit of time this morning listening to this new speaker.

The LS50 isn't part of any range, it's a one off product. Basically, KEF have said to their engineers to approach a new build speaker from a studio point of view rather than hi-fi, so the presentation is a little different from something like the R100's (it's closest relative to look at). The R series has a lot in common with the Blade, but not quite as much as the LS50 does....

Whilst the R100 cabinet is very good, the cabinet for the LS50 has pretty much been 'overdone'. There's more bracing, and KEF have utilised their 'constrained layer damping' to heavily reduce cabinet colourations and resonances, and have even redesigned the port to help in this respect too. The front panel is effectively double layered for extra rigidity. If you 'knock' on the cabinet as you would a door, it's solid. If you've ever done that to the Reference range, you'll know what I mean.

The front panel is shaped more like the Blade in that over the full 360 degrees around the driver, the cabinet curves back, which fully minimises reflections from what would normally be a flat front panel (on most speakers).

The sound from these is different to a normal hi-fi speaker. Speakers that studios master music on tend to be more neutral than hi-fi speakers, so you can hear more of what's going on in the mix. If you like detail, the LS50 will be preferable against the R100, and even the R300. If you like a bit of warmth and fullness to your bass, the LS50's won't be for you....
Frank Harvey Hi-Fi and www.hifix.co.uk US"
............................................................ ..........................................

Thanks to you, David, and I believe Donutfan from a different posting, I think I am starting to get my head around this a bit more. I am not looking for a flawed speaker that emphasizes or de-emphasizes a certain frequency, but because of a past experience with the 801, I am wary of an ultra clinical speaker. I now believe I don't have to worry about that with the bulk of the speakers on the current list. And yes, some of my music will need to be listened to on the Ipod or Boom Box to enjoy, as I sometime have to do today.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #290 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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AJ,

I was working on my post when you posted in between. Yours is very helpful also. What is surprising is that the 801 Matrix Series 3 fit that Studio Monitor role very much so (I just recently found that out) where the newer line seems to be much less so.

Thanks for helping educate me on this aspect.

Jim

P.S. The best I've heard recently is the Vandersteen 2CEs with about 10$K of Ayre separates driving them. Except for some harshness in the treble, the Sales Person later adjusted it down on the speaker, it played my audition disk selections pretty awesome. I did not go back and re-listen to the tracks that sounded harsh afterwards to confirm it fixed it.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #291 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 08:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

AJ,

I was working on my post when you posted in between. Yours is very helpful also. What is surprising is that the 801 Matrix Series 3 fit that Studio Monitor role very much so (I just recently found that out) where the newer line seems to be much less so.

Thanks for helping educate me on this aspect.

Jim

P.S. The best I've heard recently is the Vandersteen 2CEs with about 10$K of Ayre separates driving them. Except for some harshness in the treble, the Sales Person later adjusted it down on the speaker, it played my audition disk selections pretty awesome. I did not go back and re-listen to the tracks that sounded harsh afterwards to confirm it fixed it.

Hopefully they weren't pushing them too hard because they wanted to impress you with the demo.
WRT the KEF LS50 vs __, indeed I would expect a difference in the "warmth", precisely because there is no way a tiny speaker like that is going to be listened to free standing in a studio, unlike the home versions (like the R100, 300), which will. As such, the baffle diffraction loss filter LF contouring in the crossover will be quite different. The LS0 has a much greater chance of ending up on a console for monitoring and as such, requires little if any diffraction loss (the so called "baffle step") compensation. The R100 and 300 will! They will most likely be placed free standing, not on a console, bookshelf, etc. and thus would sound "thin" without a diffraction loss contouring filter. So yes, they will sound different side by side as a singular example. The smoother mid part might be marketing prose or additional components in the filter design to further linearize the mid band. A cost (added components) that cannot be justified in a lower priced product.
Again, this is a singular example, not a generalization.
As you noted, the 801 was(is) used in studios. Once again, the speaker cannot know whether the applied voltage is music, movies, etc.
A design can certainly be parametered for "studio" console, soffit, etc mounting vs free standing (more typical "hifi" scenario), but that is quite different from an apples to apples comparison, which it rarely is.
Note that Harmans reference HT system doesn't use "hifi" Revels, but rather studio JBLs. Reason is quite simple. The Studio monitors have all the "hifi" SQ attributes...but the added ability to play much louder, with cleaner dynamics and a more unrestrained ease of presentation. Most folks can hear that quite easily. Perhaps something the Vandy's weren't quite up to task for.

cheers,

AJ
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post #292 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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AJ,

WRT the Vandy's, I did not push them at all. I just listened to them at similar levels I would normally (guess mid 70 dB with peaks in 80s). They only had the GoldenEar Titon 2s and the Vandersteens worth checking out, after a 60 mile drive. Just wanted to hear them, was not trying to evaluate them as I had no interest to purchase.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #293 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 08:58 PM
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What did you think of the Triton 2's? Seem to be a lot of mixed opinions on them.

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

Quick shot of my gear/theater.
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post #294 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 09:04 PM
 
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Well, I've heard the ol' 2ce a few times over the years and wouldn't consider them bright. Think they use the old venerable Vifa D25AG35 metal dome, which is quite polite.
Maybe they were using the wrong power cords or the amps weren't properly burnt in?...ok, j/k, j/k
It's a start. Seems like you're using your own music/Cds too, which is good.
Did you listen to the GEs?

cheers,

AJ
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post #295 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 09:20 PM
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Personally I'd rather simply buy a speaker that sounds "right" to me vs. messing around for who knows how long with room treatments, not to mention many room treatments can be butt-ugly AND potentially expensive, and this is when you can run into a very common issue that can slam the brakes on a guy's system: the dreaded WAF.

While there's humor in the above statement, it's also the truth, and since most people will not be setting up their system in a room devoted to it, they have to face reality and make sure it fits into a (usually shared) living room or bedroom.

So I think a company thinking all their customers are going to set up their home around their speakers are in for a rude awakening. I first noticed this trend when tweeter and midrange level controls began to disappear from speakers starting in the early 90s, an unfortunate development IMO. They are very useful and were standard features on many many speakers, at pretty much all price points, all the way back to the 1950s.

Again(!), for many people who listen to rock-n-pop and other genres traditionally not (usually) recorded all that well, I believe a highly revealing speaker is very probably not going to increase their listening enjoyment. And when so many modern albums* are mastered with stupid amounts of the higher frequencies along with near-painful amounts of signal compression - something classical and jazz fans don't have to deal with** - to make up for the deficiencies of laptop & tablet speakers and cheap earbuds, when those types of recordings are played through those revealing speakers......

So when I heard those Andrew Jones-designed Pioneers and their "gentle" a.k.a. warm, smooth, etc sonic nature I thought, wow, some common sense is coming back to lower-priced audio. Another speaker line that has a similar quality to my ears is Infinity's Primus series. And while I've only heard one pair, from their Contour series, based on written reviews it seems Dynaudio also produces speakers with a smooth & non-fatiguing house sound.


* many remastered older albums have also been abused this way

** fortunately it seems as if movie soundtracks have escaped this nasty trend (this is based on personal experience......and reading pro recording forums!)
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post #296 of 411 Old 05-15-2012, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Of which you willingly participated it. This is a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black.

I was trying to pound some sense into you guys which seems to be a futile effort given the recent posts above but in any case, let me be the first to say I am wrong in all accounts be it science or opinion. I am an idiot for ever doubted AJ's superior knowledge in loudspeakers and not contributing in any significant way to the members of the forum. Clearly we should be buying his speakers instead of other brands at any price. Please ignore my past recommendations and useless bothersome opinions along with my participation in childish egocentric engagements that didn't benefit anybody's job or family, myself included.

Thus I shall take another 2-3 years of exile from this site for my sins. Thank you for yanking me back to reality guys.
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post #297 of 411 Old 05-16-2012, 03:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

What did you think of the Triton 2's? Seem to be a lot of mixed opinions on them.

If you look at the thread " What audition music do you use" you will see what music I used. I think I listened to disk 2 first and was quite impressed. Very good bass. However, when I got to disk 1 with Neil Diamond Hot August Night and Indigo Girl tracks, they did not sound right (upper mids?).

I had the Sales guy come listen and he acknowledged they knew about it and had called Sandy but he told them to work with placement - not the issue. May have been a defective pair but that ended my interest in them.

What is interesting is I had high expectations on the GE but not so for the Vandys. Press was so good on the GE. For the 2CEs I had compared my 103/4s with the Def Tech sub against a Vandersteen model at a shop that sold Def Tech and Vandersteen and all of us preferred the Kefs. That was ~20 years ago, however.

I was not interested in the 2CEs so I did not push them but I was impressed with what I heard. The source electronics did not hurt.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #298 of 411 Old 05-16-2012, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

I was trying to pound some sense into you guys which seems to be a futile effort given the recent posts above but in any case...

No, you weren't; you participated in taking the thread off topic as much as anyone else. Go re-read your posts. Nice try, though. At least AJ is actually helping the OP.

donutfan,

See djbluemax1's post. You can still tweak an accurate speaker through various means to get the sound you want; best of both worlds (for quality recordings and lousy ones). And you can do it without any room treatments (see my previous posts about a well designed speaker sounding similar in most listening rooms above the Schroeder Frequency - complimentary of Floyd Toole and Sean Olive's research). It doesn't matter what you listen to; a speaker that measures well is the one preferred by the masses, and it's the one that with more faithfully reproduce what's on the recording. See Dr. Olive's case study from 2003 on frequency response on and off-axis in which they tested four groups of listeners under double blind, level matched circumstances (trained listeners, audio reviewers, audio salesmen and novices); an overwhelming majority of the group preferred the speakers in order of flattest on and off-axis frequency response. Claimed differences in human hearing has nothing to do with it, unless said difference is not minor (such as an actual hearing condition).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

If you look at the thread " What audition music do you use" you will see what music I used. I think I listened to disk 2 first and was quite impressed. Very good bass. However, when I got to disk 1 with Neil Diamond Hot August Night and Indigo Girl tracks, they did not sound right (upper mids?).

I had the Sales guy come listen and he acknowledged they knew about it and had called Sandy but he told them to work with placement - not the issue. May have been a defective pair but that ended my interest in them.

What is interesting is I had high expectations on the GE but not so for the Vandys. Press was so good on the GE. For the 2CEs I had compared my 103/4s with the Def Tech sub against a Vandersteen model at a shop that sold Def Tech and Vandersteen and all of us preferred the Kefs. That was ~20 years ago, however.

I was not interested in the 2CEs so I did not push them but I was impressed with what I heard. The source electronics did not hurt.

The 2CE's aren't perfect, but they are pretty sweet for the money in my opinion. The time and phase design is cool, though I don't know how much it actually influences the sound. The Vandersteen Model 7's are still one of the best speakers I've heard, although even those weren't perfect (there is no perfect speaker). Did that hi-fi ship carry the new Vandersteen Treos?

So what's next on your audition list?

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
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post #299 of 411 Old 05-16-2012, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


The 2CE's aren't perfect, but they are pretty sweet for the money in my opinion. The time and phase design is cool, though I don't know how much it actually influences the sound. The Vandersteen Model 7's are still one of the best speakers I've heard, although even those weren't perfect (there is no perfect speaker). Did that hi-fi ship carry the new Vandersteen Treos?

So what's next on your audition list?

I actually went over to look at amps at that time and only looked at speakers for fun. I have auditioned zero since I started to look for my next system but I will create a short list and then see how to make auditions happpen. Studio 2s are at the top of my list, although they are outside my targeted budget. The Salk SS8 sits at #2 but I want to go through what people suggested, at least what I can without listening. The Dunlavy's are off the list after seeing a picture of them, not for me. Perhaps I will get some time this weekend.
Also, the 2CEs were the only Vandy's they had in stock and were set up as the primary 2 channel setup in the store. They had two HT rooms but I did not check those out.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #300 of 411 Old 05-16-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I actually went over to look at amps at that time and only looked at speakers for fun. I have auditioned zero since I started to look for my next system but I will create a short list and then see how to make auditions happpen. Studio 2s are at the top of my list, although they are outside my targeted budget. The Salk SS8 sits at #2 but I want to go through what people suggested, at least what I can without listening. The Dunlavy's are off the list after seeing a picture of them, not for me. Perhaps I will get some time this weekend.
Also, the 2CEs were the only Vandy's they had in stock and were set up as the primary 2 channel setup in the store. They had two HT rooms but I did not check those out.

If you are interested in Salk or Philharmonic, there is one other idea I thought of.

We know Dennis Murphy is XO man for both. Delmond Won is the talented cabinet maker for Dennis. He can custom build you the exact cabinet style you want and have Dennis do the drivers and XO (like he did for Salk SS8/10/12). Del has built many styles of speaker cabinets. 100% custom the way you want it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post21976904


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