Speakers ~$10K for rock, alternative and some pop. Not Jazz or Classical. - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 411 Old 05-09-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Measurements are great for those who know how to correlate them to perception, though, as they'll help weed out the bad designs. They won't tell you how the speaker will sound in your room, though, and isn't that the whole point of the journey?

+1

I've never mentioned here that measurements were useless, just that I don't believe in 100% relying on them when it comes down to making one's final choice. But yes, if I saw an FR chart that had a significant bump around the 10kHz region I would think that that particular model probably sounded pretty bright & would file it away under "O.K. for HT, but not for my music".
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post #122 of 411 Old 05-09-2012, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone heard the Thiel CS2.4 or CS3.7s? If I could get 3.7s close to budget (not saying I can), would you jump on them? I hope this is not a loaded question.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #123 of 411 Old 05-09-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It is MUCH different and more difficult to program a DCX2496 than it is to set bass management in an AVR.

Pretty much convinces me you have not programmed a DCX to fix anything.

Um, it is? I do actually have experience with the DCX I do not consider it hard at all to program.

"Bass management" in AVR's is nothing more than another term for a limited "2 way active" system setup. Again, your crossover points(many times limited in frequency poinst and slopes), speaker distance(dumbed down time alignment), and some limited fixed EQ points you can adjust manually, some times per speaker, other times paired up. A good "speaker management" system just expands this from a highly limited 2 way active arrangement to a 3 way or greater expansion giving full control over each individual channel, driver or driver range, vs. just bass, and mains/surrounds etc.

Honestly home AV systems are way behind the times......even comarped to car audio surprisingly. Jeez back 10-15 years ago even in car you could design and install a high quality fully active 3 way system or more with full control over driver alignment, crossover points, slopes, EQing etc.
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post #124 of 411 Old 05-09-2012, 12:19 PM
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Thiel 3.7's are fantastic. MSRP is near $14K so I bet you can scoop a pair for under $10k for the first generation (only minor change were made)

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post #125 of 411 Old 05-09-2012, 11:59 PM
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To the OP,
if you can fit a pair of Legacy Audio Focus SE's in the room (within budget, but they aren't exactly 'small'), they could fit your needs quite well. As with any well-designed speaker, they sound great with just about any type of music, but one of the added benefits with these in particular is that they have very good low end response (dual 12" woofers), and with the efficiency (95.4db) and high power handling (500 watts @ 4 ohms), they can really thump for the rock and pop. Sound good at lower volumes too and with acoustic and classical music.

The Kefs, Revels, Soundscapes and Philharmonics are good options too.

Personally, I've found that speakers that measure similarly tend to sound quite similar. The little differences are in soundstage and imaging between designs like dipole/bipoles and direct firing, but speakers that can play fairly flat all sound good to me in the sweet spot.

To ntrain96,
Enough already. Who in their right minds wants to buy a pair of $10k speakers just to rip everything out and reconfigure them to get them to sound right? That'd be like buying a $100,000 sportscar that, in order for it to accelerate and handle well, needs to have the suspension, brakes, engine, engine management etc replaced/upgraded.

Any pair of speakers that needs to have its parts like the crossovers removed/replaced, cabinets reinforced etc. is not even worth considering. If someone finds a great deal on a used pair of speakers for $50 knowing that they contain $1k worth of drivers but have crappy crossovers and cabinets etc. and want to try a little DIY tinkering, so be it, but NO ONE looking at $10k speakers is interested in needing to fix ANYTHING out of the box to get them to perform satisfactorily.


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post #126 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 02:50 AM
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^ I hate to say it but people with too much $ do modify their ferraris and other super exotics with excessive mods. The same concept with what ntrain's doing if he's really doing it.
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post #127 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

^ I hate to say it but people with too much $ do modify their ferraris and other super exotics with excessive mods. The same concept with what ntrain's doing if he's really doing it.

Yeah, not a great analogy. I know of plenty of people who buy $100k Porsches and change the suspension, exhaust, intake, put turbos on them, etc.
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post #128 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


The Kefs, Revels, Soundscapes and Philharmonics are good options too.

Personally, I've found that speakers that measure similarly tend to sound quite similar. The little differences are in soundstage and imaging between designs like dipole/bipoles and direct firing, but speakers that can play fairly flat all sound good to me in the sweet spot.

Who in their right minds wants to buy a pair of $10k speakers just to rip everything out and reconfigure them to get them to sound right?

Any pair of speakers that needs to have its parts like the crossovers removed/replaced, cabinets reinforced etc. is not even worth considering.

I agree 100%.
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post #129 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 06:20 AM
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What the heck is everyone talking about here?
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post #130 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

What the heck is everyone talking about here?

Recommending $10K speakers.

Some of us think the OP should buy something that sounds great to begin with and not make modifications or add EQ/DSP.

A few people think the OP should spend his $10K on some speakers and make modifications to them and/or add EQ/DSP to make them sound good.
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post #131 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

What the heck is everyone talking about here?

Out of recommendations? Let's fight!
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post #132 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AuralXTC View Post

To me, if a speaker only does one particular genre really well, it's a flawed design from the get-go. A well designed speaker should be able to handle anything you throw at it.

Well, yes. However the demands placed on a speaker do differ by genre. A pair of monitors might work fine if your library is all chamber music. But not so much if you are into something with a lot of bass.

For rock I'd be looking at something that has a relatively high efficiency.

For this use I might be looking at Seaton Sound.

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post #133 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

Well, yes. However the demands placed on a speaker do differ by genre. A pair of monitors might work fine if your library is all chamber music. But not so much if you are into something with a lot of bass.

Many audiophiles will strongly recommend small standmounts, saying that smaller speakers like these image better than floorstanders and especially, their bass output is cleaner and more realistic.



Then you look at their member profile and most of the music they listen to turns out to be a genre like flute solos! Plus they will sometimes mention the fact they never listen at levels higher than a two-person conversation.

FYI..........

1) good imaging only partly depends on the shape/size of the speaker's front baffle, so personally I wouldn't get hung up on that issue when trying to decide between speakers.

2) IMO the reason they think small standmounts (speakers with 4" or 5" woofers) produce higher quality bass than a floorstander is because such speakers cannot produce the type of bass that can cause much hair-pulling for owners of larger speakers.

In other words, for people with a speaker that can make it down to say, 40Hz, they need to make sure to position such speakers to avoid locations that produce boomy and/or exaggerated bass. But many people end up placing these speakers where they look good or simply don't realize they need to be positioned correctly in the first place (always read your manual!), and when a standmount believer comes over for dinner & hears them, his opinion of "large" speakers slips down several notches.* Not to mention stereo imaging is probably negatively impacted as well because for example a huge potted plant is sitting where one of the speakers should be.


* same deal with subwoofers: many people don't take the time to position them correctly, leading to their reputation among many casual audiophiles as expensive boomboxes
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post #134 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 08:21 AM
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The flute solos comment made me spill my coffee. Thanks...
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post #135 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


To ntrain96,
Enough already. Who in their right minds wants to buy a pair of $10k speakers just to rip everything out and reconfigure them to get them to sound right? That'd be like buying a $100,000 sportscar that, in order for it to accelerate and handle well, needs to have the suspension, brakes, engine, engine management etc replaced/upgraded.

Any pair of speakers that needs to have its parts like the crossovers removed/replaced, cabinets reinforced etc. is not even worth considering. If someone finds a great deal on a used pair of speakers for $50 knowing that they contain $1k worth of drivers but have crappy crossovers and cabinets etc. and want to try a little DIY tinkering, so be it, but NO ONE looking at $10k speakers is interested in needing to fix ANYTHING out of the box to get them to perform satisfactorily.


Max

Bad analogy.......but for a different reason than what others stated........alot of these speakers listed in the $5-10k range are anything but "Ferrari's". Most of them are still made with cheap xover parts and cabinets(MDF), and technically have more money into the marketing of them, than the actual product itself. Spending $10k does not garentee you a cutting edge "hifi" product.

I agree, most people dont want to mod/upgrade their $$$ toy "investments", but on the other hand many do still and gain significant improvements doing so.

My recommendations to the OP wasn't to "modify" his current speakers, but to buy some measuring equipment, and a speaker management unit to see what his current speakers are really capable of. He wouldnt have to open up, or "mod" anything to do so either, just spend a little of his own time. He could gain alot of insight on speaker performance/response, placement and room interaction and make a better informed decision with the experience gained before plunking down 4-5 figures with of benjamins. He already stated he loved his current speakers but that they lacked a bit of treble "air". Grab a measuring tool, and a way to adjust and smooth out the speaker's in room response and gain back what he is looking for/missing.
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post #136 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 11:26 AM
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Why dosent OP just pay a cabinet maker to build him a multi constrained layer birch/mdf/birch cabinet, pick 3 of the most expensive drivers available, and 6 channels of amplification with an active crossover?

Probably cause he just wants a great set of finished speakers. That can easily be achieved for less then $10k


http://www.selahaudio.com/id67.html
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post #137 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Why dosent OP just pay a cabinet maker to build him a multi constrained layer birch/mdf/birch cabinet, pick 3 of the most expensive drivers available, and 6 channels of amplification with an active crossover?

The funny thing is that this would probably give him the ultimate setup if he knew a cabinet maker with enclosure knowledge.......that probably would give him the ultimate setup. $10k could easily afford him that. But I would do bamboo/hardwood veneer combo instead.
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post #138 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

The flute solos comment made me spill my coffee. Thanks...

To be fair, there are some fantastic flute solos out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c_ufaxeSTs

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post #139 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

^ I hate to say it but people with too much $ do modify their ferraris and other super exotics with excessive mods. The same concept with what ntrain's doing if he's really doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

Yeah, not a great analogy. I know of plenty of people who buy $100k Porsches and change the suspension, exhaust, intake, put turbos on them, etc.

Yes, yes, I know, some folks are just tweakers and modders and will modify ANYTHING to improve its performance (I should know, I have a ridiculous amount of mods in mine: suspension, brakes, turbos, intercooler, overbuilt engine, carbon fiber driveshaft, 300M axles, different differentials etc.).

My point was that regular folks buying something like that shouldn't HAVE to do all that just to get acceptable performance (and there are way more folks with unmodified or minimally modded sports cars than there are with seriously modded ones).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Bad analogy.......but for a different reason than what others stated........alot of these speakers listed in the $5-10k range are anything but "Ferrari's". Most of them are still made with cheap xover parts and cabinets(MDF), and technically have more money into the marketing of them, than the actual product itself. Spending $10k does not garentee you a cutting edge "hifi" product.

I can definitely agree with this, but the point is, if you're looking at your buying options, why even bother looking at flawed options that would need modifying to produce decent sound? For a $10k pair of speakers, it would make much more sense to simply dismiss any and every speaker option that doesn't produce great sound right out of the box, because at that pricepoint, there are definitely numerous great options available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

My recommendations to the OP wasn't to "modify" his current speakers, but to buy some measuring equipment, and a speaker management unit to see what his current speakers are really capable of. He wouldnt have to open up, or "mod" anything to do so either, just spend a little of his own time. He could gain alot of insight on speaker performance/response, placement and room interaction and make a better informed decision with the experience gained before plunking down 4-5 figures with of benjamins. He already stated he loved his current speakers but that they lacked a bit of treble "air". Grab a measuring tool, and a way to adjust and smooth out the speaker's in room response and gain back what he is looking for/missing.

Now, this is definitely a recommendation I can get behind. Especially when someone is considering speakers in the $10k range, measuring equipment is a tiny fraction of the price. With the measuring equipment, he can see what the speakers he currently likes measure in his room. In addition, whether he mods his current speakers or buys completely different ones, the measuring equipment will allow him to get the most out of them.


Max
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post #140 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Why dosent OP just pay a cabinet maker to build him a multi constrained layer birch/mdf/birch cabinet, pick 3 of the most expensive drivers available, and 6 channels of amplification with an active crossover?

Probably cause he just wants a great set of finished speakers. That can easily be achieved for less then $10k


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Sorry, but looks like an upright casket to me...

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post #141 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

To be fair, there are some fantastic flute solos out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c_ufaxeSTs

of course... the line was just delivered perfectly. I didn't expect it and coffee shot out my nose...
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post #142 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Sorry, but looks like an upright casket to me...

Good call, it must sound pretty dead...


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post #143 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

of course... the line was just delivered perfectly. I didn't expect it and coffee shot out my nose...

I laughed as well and was just kidding around (hence the YouTube link) .

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post #144 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

What the heck is everyone talking about here?

It would appear to be train wreck avoidance

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

Well, yes. However the demands placed on a speaker do differ by genre. A pair of monitors might work fine if your library is all chamber music. But not so much if you are into something with a lot of bass.

While it's understandable because it seems you don't listen to this genre, chamber music can more demanding of bass than any other.

I'm rather fond of flute too.

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post #145 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 04:33 PM
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Good call, it must sound pretty dead...

What does that mean?

I'm not a big fan of the aesthetic, but I hope they sound dynamic, lifelike, and real, not dead and compressed.
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post #146 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


What does that mean?

I'm not a big fan of the aesthetic, but I hope they sound dynamic, lifelike, and real, not dead and compressed.

I guess the sarcasm was lost. I'm the one who suggested those speakers.


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post #147 of 411 Old 05-10-2012, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Bad analogy.......but for a different reason than what others stated........alot of these speakers listed in the $5-10k range are anything but "Ferrari's". Most of them are still made with cheap xover parts and cabinets(MDF), and technically have more money into the marketing of them, than the actual product itself. Spending $10k does not garentee you a cutting edge "hifi" product.

You think a Murcielago isn't made out of cheap OEM parts with crappy craftsmanship? Or a Maser Granturismo has cutting edge dashboard panel?
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post #148 of 411 Old 05-11-2012, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Veda View Post

You think a Murcielago isn't made out of cheap OEM parts with crappy craftsmanship? Or a Maser Granturismo has cutting edge dashboard panel?

A speaker has only a handful of materials and components. Drivers, xover boards, some wire, terminals and the majority/bulk of it(The enclosure) is made of wood(mdf). So you tell me: $10,000 for a sheet or 2 of mdf($25), a few feet of wire($1-2 bucks),few sets of binding posts($5-10), xover boards/parts($5-10 for the typical ones, maybe $20 for a more complex steep slope arrangement?), then how much for a few pairs of good drivers at wholesale? Maybe some 16th veneer tossed in? LOL!

IMO a Murcielago or any performance sportscar(Or for that matter any car period) regardless of the price, which has THOUSANDS of components many of which truely are exotic or do have real material value should never be compared to a home AV "speaker" in any $$$ form. Jeez, I would'nt even compare a big dollar "hi fi" speaker to a typical mass produced home AVR when it comes to actual material cost either.
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post #149 of 411 Old 05-11-2012, 05:33 AM
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^ Why not? The analogy is the same. A rebadged Audi with Lambo logo that costs 2-3x...
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post #150 of 411 Old 05-11-2012, 06:06 AM
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Ok,

Give me $10K and I will build you a pair of Statements, ship them, fly out and set them up and even include an amp

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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