Spend more for a few more watts? HELP - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 05-05-2012, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I have the pioneer 821-K. Rated at 80watts per channel 20-20khz.
125 watts per ch @ 1khz-6ohm. All my speakers are 6ohm.

I want to upgrade to a 1122k(2012), or a 1121k(2011) model because of the
fact I can run .2 subs and even out the bass to fill the room.

The other reason is that I want a little more power avaliable to my speakers. My fronts are rated @130 max and they were blown due to clipping in 5.1 having run out of juice from the wittle (821) weciever trying to power all of it.

Will I be gaining that much more headroom switching to the other model mentioned with an additional 10-20 watts 20hz-20khz?

Funny that the brand new 1122k rates 90 watts per ch@ 20hz-20khz, but
@1hz-6ohm its 165 watts ,where the the 821 is @125watts.

All info below from pioneers website.

821K--- 80watts @ 20hz-20khz 125 watts at 1khz 6ohm
1121k--- 110 @ ^^^^^^^ 125 ^^^^^^^^^^^
1122k----- 90 @ ^^^^^^^ 165 ^^^^^^^^^^

I learned how to tell if I am approaching clipping and dont need a lecture on that. I know that the power ratings are bull crap under actual use. I want to stay with pioneer. I am not planning on building a huge system in the near future but would like more power just in case. I just want to give my pioneer andrew jones low priced speakers the right amount of power to make them sing to the best of their ability.

Any knoledge from you guys would be really helpfull in my deciding to upgrade, thanks.
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post #2 of 23 Old 05-05-2012, 07:33 PM
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You have to double the power to get 3db increase. Why not use A Y-splitter to run dual sub's?
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post #3 of 23 Old 05-05-2012, 08:21 PM
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If the 1121 or 1122 have preamp outs go for one of them. Then you can add an external amp later. Sounds like you like to play your system really loud or you have a big room.

Jeffer65
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post #4 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOSCHEKER View Post

My fronts are rated @130 max and they were blown due to clipping

Tweeters, sure. Midranges, maybe. Woofers, never. You can only blow a woofer by overpowering. If that's the case you need better speakers, not more power.

Quote:
Will I be gaining that much more headroom switching to the other model mentioned with an additional 10-20 watts

No. The difference would be imperceptible.


Quote:
I learned how to tell if I am approaching clipping and dont need a lecture on that.

I don't know what you learned, but the answer is simple: it sounds bad. When it does, turn it down.

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post #5 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 06:42 AM
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If you really blew your speakers than I doubt adding 10 watts would make a difference...

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #6 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 06:51 AM
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Every response is spot on.
If you blew your speakers, you do not need an incremental upgrade, you need a complete overhaul.
You can get there with consumer equipment or you can get there with pro gear.
The shops that sell pro gear are usually buy and sell operations so you should be able to significantly improve the loudness with a pair of speakers and an amp for a reasonable amount of money.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #7 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 07:07 AM
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What part was blown?

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post #8 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

What part was blown?


the tweets in the fronts
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post #9 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffer65 View Post

If the 1121 or 1122 have preamp outs go for one of them. Then you can add an external amp later. Sounds like you like to play your system really loud or you have a big room.


Im coming from a sony "1000watt" , HTIB with speakers the size of my hand. Its the only sound ive ever had so im just learning what all the hookups on a real AVR is for. Honestly, I just learned what a pre amp out does from jeffer65. Still pretty green I am.

Im looking to fool-proof my system and have the exact right amount of power to not blow the speakers.
My girlfriend likes to turn it up and listen to music while she works in the garden 150' down the yard. I dont want to worry bout her blowing my speakers. my thought behind this, to little power = clipping.

When I hear it start to clip once its loud the receiver is at 73 volume out of 80, so I turn it back a couple notches to loose the disstortion (clip) to be safe. Im wondering if I add just a few more watts 10-30 more watts that it will be a girl proof system and I wont worry bout running out of power for the speakers.

With that being said, I want to run some speakers outside off of B-zone at a later date.
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post #10 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahPaul View Post

You have to double the power to get 3db increase. Why not use A Y-splitter to run dual sub's?

Learned somthing new, AGAIN!. thanks paul.

You know the saying "learn somthing new everyday"?
Im so green I learn somthing new every 5 minutes.
Thanks for helping a rookie guys.
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post #11 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 10:16 AM
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It is not the watts-but the dB difference in watts.

A few more watts (say 10 watts) is a big difference when you are talking about 5 watts to start with.

But at 100 watts, it is not even going to be noticed.

The formula for figuring out the dB difference in watts is: P1/P2 logx10. P1 and P2 are the watts in question.

Danley Sound Labs

Physics-not fads
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post #12 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 10:28 AM
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Get some speakers that have compression driver tweets mated to horns. They will get ear bleedingly loud with little power. So your chances of blowing them are much less.

I suggest these: http://www.chasehometheater.com/inde...art&Itemid=142

Television: Mitsubishi WD65737 DLP
Processor: Emotiva UMC-200
Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
Mains: DCM TimeFrame 600 Center: AT 453C
Surrounds: AT 251.1 Sub: Danley DTS-10
Blu Ray: Panasonic DMP-BD655
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post #13 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 10:29 AM
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Another thing to consider would be a volume limiter. I'm not 100% familiar with your model of receiver, but I have a Pioneer a couple of years old that have a max volume setting. It does not let the user turn the gain up past a point determined by you. That is a way that I can prevent the accidental ravaging of my speakers. It might be worth your while looking into that option.
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post #14 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfang View Post

I have a Pioneer a couple of years old that have a max volume setting. It does not let the user turn the gain up past a point determined by you.

That's OK as far as it goes, but if the signal level from the source increases for whatever reason system gain will increase as well, and that can occur with a 'hot' DVD or CD, or for that matter a commercial when watching TV.
Quote:


the tweets in the fronts

That can be caused by clipping, though usually you get sufficient warning via nasty sounds before they are toasted. Usually, because a tweeter not up to the job and/or crossover with inadequate slope can also be culprits. In any event if you have an amp clipping issue you need to at least double the amp output rating to have meaningful effect.

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post #15 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That's OK as far as it goes, but if the signal level from the source increases for whatever reason system gain will increase as well, and that can occur with a 'hot' DVD or CD, or for that matter a commercial when watching TV.
That can be caused by clipping, though usually you get sufficient warning via nasty sounds before they are toasted. Usually, because a tweeter not up to the job and/or crossover with inadequate slope can also be culprits. In any event if you have an amp clipping issue you need to at least double the amp output rating to have meaningful effect.


I was listening to the new Van halen CD (purchased copy) and from the amazing sound of GODS guitar I couldent distinguish any other disstortion or "bad sounds" at the moment I fried the tweets. Sounded normal, Good,real good. Sure enough white smoke from tweets though at volume 75. Thats 75 vol out of 80, I know loud. I was asking to much from said AVR probably.

As far as the max volume controller, I might look into that but a funny thing happened after I fried those tweetys. I spiked the volume up very fast once I got the new floorstanders (same model) and the receiver dropped the max vol at 76. So the receiver dropped the max on me, on its own. pretty cool I think.
The AVR might be trying to outthink my girlfriend!

Sounds like upgrading to a whole new receiver with a little more power just aint going to do anything for me as far as loudness or clipping protection goes. Sounds like my best bet is to just take it easy and teach the woman its limits untill I upgrade all over again.

I went into this project thinking if I match the max watts on speakers to the high power rating givin on AVR spec sheet I would be safe. FAILED!
Then I learned about underpowered the hard way. CLIPP.
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post #16 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOSCHEKER View Post

I was listening to the new Van halen CD (purchased copy) and from the amazing sound of GODS guitar I couldent distinguish any other disstortion or "bad sounds" at the moment I fried the tweets. Sounded normal, Good,real good. Sure enough white smoke from tweets though at volume 75. Thats 75 vol out of 80, I know loud. I was asking to much from said AVR probably.

A receiver with pre-outs for an amp, a 2ch amp, some fairly decent L/R speakers for 2ch listening and your gf can garden to her hearts content.

If you got the Van Halen CD "A different kind of truth", the recording really sounds crappy imo. Theres some pretty good songs, but the release is close to junk and I bought mine through Costco.

Anyway, good luck on your musical endeavor.

Spinning the rear tire at 150mph while at 3/4 lean angle will put wrinkles in your seat
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post #17 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

A receiver with pre-outs for an amp, a 2ch amp, some fairly decent L/R speakers for 2ch listening and your gf can garden to her hearts content.

If you got the Van Halen CD "A different kind of truth", the recording really sounds crappy imo. Theres some pretty good songs, but the release is close to junk and I bought mine through Costco.

Anyway, good luck on your musical endeavor.


Yeah, the first time I heard it I was all WTF. After a second listen I was stoked to hear that guitar again. The CD aint to bad. I blew my tweetys on the first 30 seconds too TATTOO. I tweaked my settings on everything to make anything sound great. So lets just say im happy with the tone im gettin.

Looking at the back of the 821-K, it looks like the sub out is also labeled pre amp,and the front hight is labeled pre out in the form of red-white rca style holes. So what do I doo there if I buy an amp to power extras, like just the front two towers or speakers "B".
Im guessing pre-out and pre-amp are different? Also if I use the same pre amp that my sub is out of, will I loose the sub or have to run it through a differnt amp(s) after daisy chaining?
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post #18 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOSCHEKER View Post


Looking at the back of the 821-K, it looks like the sub out is also labeled pre amp,and the front hight is labeled pre out in the form of red-white rca style holes. So what do I doo there if I buy an amp to power extras, like just the front two towers or speakers "B".
Im guessing pre-out and pre-amp are different? Also if I use the same pre amp that my sub is out of, will I loose the sub or have to run it through a differnt amp(s) after daisy chaining?

Pre-outs and preamp outs are the same thing, however with your 821K there is a snag. I found the manual. The 821 is a 5.1 channel receiver. L&R fronts, center, L&R rear surrounds, and the subwoofer channel. The pair of pre-outs you see are only for making your system a 7.1 channel setup. You would plug an external amp into those jacks to power two additional surround sound channels for movie watching. You can't use those pre-out jacks to add an amp to power your front L&R tower speakers.
The subwoofer jack is only for connecting your sub.

Jeffer65
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post #19 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 04:00 PM
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What speakers are you using?
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post #20 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

What speakers are you using?

Pioneer, FS-51, BS-21, SP-C21, SW-8. The andrew jones budget home theater ones.
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post #21 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOSCHEKER View Post

The andrew jones budget home theater ones.

I have no idea what those are, but the word 'budget' doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.

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post #22 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I have no idea what those are, but the word 'budget' doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.

I know what you mean, but, I threw in the word budget because these things are an unbeatable bang for buck bargain, and people with a lot-o-money dont use the word budget very much. Im on a budget, big time.
This line sounds freakin awsome, if you find em via search, check out the reviews. A good thread under-- pioneers speaker genius hits low point-- under this catagory (speakers) in this forum is proof. They have a huge fan base.

They may be a little on the lower spec side, but they sure sound good. Just need a lil power to get there imo. Way better then spending 50,000 on some of the stuff hes made.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eater+Speakers
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-06-2012, 05:26 PM
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with sensitivity of 87 db 6 ohm speakers for fronts and center, and 84 db for surrounds, along with the 130 watt max. Plus since you are wanting to listen at high volumes I would get different speakers.
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