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post #1 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi folks,

So here's my dilemma and my questions.

First off, I have a 5 Pioneer Speakers (FS51, BS21, and Center) from the Andrew Jones line of "cheap" awesome speakers. (p.s. I love them).

Now, I have a few non matching speakers (another 5.1 set) and I want to use 2 of these to compelte this 7.1 set... now I KNOW!! I'm messing up the timbre, and the acoustics, BUT, the BS21's are just too big for side wall placement, and they are a pain to wall mount.

So, knowing that, I want to know, what you guys think about these 3 things...

a) For a 5.1 setup, there's a misconception that the 2 "rear" speakers go behind you, but actually they should be to your side, how many of you prefer the 5.1 setup with SIDE speakers vs REAR. (I ask this, because with a 7.1 setup, your 5.1 "rears" are actually always at your side, not even Rear/Side/corner, so I want to make sure, setting up for 7.1 won't hurt my 5.1 experience).

b) For a 7.1 setup, which speakers handle more SOUND, the Rears or the Side surrounds?

c) How many of you think I should forget 7.1, and that I'm better off staying with 1 "line" of speaker brand/make with 5.1, even though 7.1 could add to the experience.

So basically I'm thinking 7.1, with Pioneer for Fronts, Center, BACK Surround, and the other brand for the SIDE surrounds.

Which means I'm using the "Other Brand" for my "rear" 5.1s, and my "side" 7.1s.

Thank you immensely, it's hard to find details like this online, and I've never played around with the 7.1 area yet, (as I haven't purchased the new DENON AVR 1712) but I'm running all my wiring, and need to decide ASAP.

Thanks guys,
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post #2 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by master0068 View Post

Hi folks,

So here's my dilemma and my questions.

First off, I have a 5 Pioneer Speakers (FS51, BS21, and Center) from the Andrew Jones line of "cheap" awesome speakers. (p.s. I love them).

Now, I have a few non matching speakers (another 5.1 set) and I want to use 2 of these to compelte this 7.1 set... now I KNOW!! I'm messing up the timbre, and the acoustics, BUT, the BS21's are just too big for side wall placement, and they are a pain to wall mount.

So, knowing that, I want to know, what you guys think about these 3 things...

a) For a 5.1 setup, there's a misconception that the 2 "rear" speakers go behind you, but actually they should be to your side, how many of you prefer the 5.1 setup with SIDE speakers vs REAR. (I ask this, because with a 7.1 setup, your 5.1 "rears" are actually always at your side, not even Rear/Side/corner, so I want to make sure, setting up for 7.1 won't hurt my 5.1 experience).

b) For a 7.1 setup, which speakers handle more SOUND, the Rears or the Side surrounds?

c) How many of you think I should forget 7.1, and that I'm better off staying with 1 "line" of speaker brand/make with 5.1, even though 7.1 could add to the experience.

So basically I'm thinking 7.1, with Pioneer for Fronts, Center, BACK Surround, and the other brand for the SIDE surrounds.

Which means I'm using the "Other Brand" for my "rear" 5.1s, and my "side" 7.1s.

Thank you immensely, it's hard to find details like this online, and I've never played around with the 7.1 area yet, (as I haven't purchased the new DENON AVR 1712) but I'm running all my wiring, and need to decide ASAP.

Thanks guys,

a) Prefer 5.1 side surrounds - gives a better sound field than just rears IMHO
b) In most applications, your sides will produce more sound and effects than the rears. Most movies are produced in 5.1 not 7.1, meaning there is a direct feed to your side surrounds and not the rears. The AVR creates/decodes its own rear channel ambient sound since it does not exist on the DVD. However, if you do find a DVD with 7.1, then it would depend on the movie and direct sound channels
c)Deciding on 5.1 vs. 7.1 depends on your room environment and where your main listening position is in relation to your proposed speakers. If you have your seating or couch against the back wall and your rear speakers are essentially pillows, I would not recommend 7.1. Surround speakers need to have some distance from you to create the surround sound field

Timber matching is important for your front stage and becomes less important with your surrounds. You should be fine using a different brand as your rear surrounds.
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post #3 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 02:40 PM
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It depends on how large your room is.

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post #4 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout's staff View Post

a) Prefer 5.1 side surrounds - gives a better sound field than just rears IMHO
b) In most applications, your sides will produce more sound and effects than the rears. Most movies are produced in 5.1 not 7.1, meaning there is a direct feed to your side surrounds and not the rears. The AVR creates/decodes its own rear channel ambient sound since it does not exist on the DVD. However, if you do find a DVD with 7.1, then it would depend on the movie and direct sound channels
c)Deciding on 5.1 vs. 7.1 depends on your room environment and where your main listening position is in relation to your proposed speakers. If you have your seating or couch against the back wall and your rear speakers are essentially pillows, I would not recommend 7.1. Surround speakers need to have some distance from you to create the surround sound field

Timber matching is important for your front stage and becomes less important with your surrounds. You should be fine using a different brand as your rear surrounds.

Hey there, Thanks for replying.

Yeah, you are comparing 5.1 vs 7.1 for the sound field of the sides, but I'm talking about in a 7.1 true hd Blu ray which was made for 7.1.

In that instance, which speakers would put out more sounds (generally).

My room is about 12x18

The seating is about @ 12-14 feet, so I have 4 feet behind the seats, so I don't think sides would be "unreasonable", although it is a "bit" tight, I still think I would feel and hear the benefit (if they do a good job with the actual implementation of 7.1).
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post #5 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by master0068 View Post

the BS21's are just too big for side wall placement, and they are a pain to wall mount.

I'm a recent covert from 5.1-7.1. There no way you can mount the BS21's to the sides with this type of mount?

http://www.pinpointmounts.com/am40.html

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post #6 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by master0068 View Post

Hey there, Thanks for replying.

Yeah, you are comparing 5.1 vs 7.1 for the sound field of the sides, but I'm talking about in a 7.1 true hd Blu ray which was made for 7.1.

In that instance, which speakers would put out more sounds (generally).

My room is about 12x18

The seating is about @ 12-14 feet, so I have 4 feet behind the seats, so I don't think sides would be "unreasonable", although it is a "bit" tight, I still think I would feel and hear the benefit (if they do a good job with the actual implementation of 7.1).

Your right on the border to see the benefits of 7.1. My last room was slightly bigger and I saw a small improvement.

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Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
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Blu Ray: Panasonic DMP-BD655
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post #7 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

I'm a recent covert from 5.1-7.1. There no way you can mount the BS21's to the sides with this type of mount?

http://www.pinpointmounts.com/am40.html

Yeah I could, but I figure they'll be too far out from the wall because of their size, so I don't really want to.

I was planning on putting the BS21s in the rear, and the smaller satellites for the sides, which I another reason why I wanted to know which ones put out more sound (rear vs side).
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post #8 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Your right on the border to see the benefits of 7.1. My last room was slightly bigger and I saw a small improvement.

Yeah, I'm very perceptive to detail, sound, video etc.

I like the theater experience, and I mean, having 7.1 vs 5.1 HAS to make a difference, even in a smaller room, especially if it's been coded to work well (source film).
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post #9 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

I'm a recent covert from 5.1-7.1. There no way you can mount the BS21's to the sides with this type of mount?

http://www.pinpointmounts.com/am40.html

Pics or it didn't happen lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #10 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 07:16 PM
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Pics or it didn't happen lol

ballbuster .

I'm gonna fire up the Se7en 7.1 BR after the Laker game in your honor .

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post #11 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 07:20 PM
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Use your matched 5.1 set up as they are supposed to be (look up Dolby, etc) then just put two others behind you and call it a day.
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post #12 of 50 Old 05-08-2012, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Use your matched 5.1 set up as they are supposed to be (look up Dolby, etc) then just put two others behind you and call it a day.

Yeah, because of the size of the BS21s, I actually want to leave them in the rear, and setup the smaller satellites as the sides...
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post #13 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone with a medium sized rectangular room done sound tests for 7.1 vs 5.1 using the same soundtrack/blu ray?
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post #14 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by master0068 View Post

Has anyone with a medium sized rectangular room done sound tests for 7.1 vs 5.1 using the same soundtrack/blu ray?

Yes. Was it scientific? No. Was it interesting? Yes. Did it change my view on 5.1 vs. 7.1? No.

You've gotten all the info you need. You have enough room to try it. Put them at a corner angle to the seating area; just make sure they are not directly opposite the opposing side front on the same line. Timbre matching of surrounds is a myth. It is a stance that enables manufacturers to sell substandard surround speakers and compels buyers to fork out for a whole set when many might prefer to buy better engineered speakers over time. Check out the head related transfer function.

In my experience, some 7.1 movies like Tron Legacy are totally immersive. And, yes, I prefer listening to that movie in 7.1 rather than downmixing to just 5.1. (The original Star Trek movies have a fun TrueHD soundtrack, too; why the new movie was only 5.1 I'll never understand. I personally feel the 6.1 surround mix of the LOTR movies is lacking.) It really just depends on the source and how much of an envelopment you happen to prefer. Some people don't like being in the middle, so to speak. And, the mixes on some soundtracks, IMO, are too foucsed on the front soundstage.

For sources other than discrete 7.1, you can upmix with various formats like Dolby ProLogic IIx. My receiver has a couple other options, and they are all a little different. The results differ by source as well. It's a less than ideal world for 7.1 afficionados, but it's what we have.
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post #15 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by master0068 View Post

Yeah, because of the size of the BS21s, I actually want to leave them in the rear, and setup the smaller satellites as the sides...

What do you mean you want to leave them in the rear??? If you had a 5.1 setup there are no rear speakers. 5.1 consists of surround speakers aka. side surrounds. So your speakers should have been 90 to 110 degrees to your side anyway.

Also in a DTS HD MA 7.1 and Dolby TrueHD 7.1 all 4 surround channels are pretty much used evenly. I use PLIIx to upconvert all my 2.0 and 5.1 to 7.1 and most times the sides and rears are utilized evenly with that as well.

But if you have 7.1 speakers setup and you choose to only run 5.1 for a 5.1 source you will only have sound out of your side surround speakers and NOTHING from your rears as they don't extist in 5.1.

My room is 11' X 23' and I have 7.1 and have 6' from seating to rear speakers and it sounds great.

Shawn
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post #16 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amicusterrae View Post

Yes. Was it scientific? No. Was it interesting? Yes. Did it change my view on 5.1 vs. 7.1? No.

You've gotten all the info you need. You have enough room to try it. Put them at a corner angle to the seating area; just make sure they are not directly opposite the opposing side front on the same line. Timbre matching of surrounds is a myth. It is a stance that enables manufacturers to sell substandard surround speakers and compels buyers to fork out for a whole set when many might prefer to buy better engineered speakers over time. Check out the head related transfer function.

In my experience, some 7.1 movies like Tron Legacy are totally immersive. And, yes, I prefer listening to that movie in 7.1 rather than downmixing to just 5.1. (The original Star Trek movies have a fun TrueHD soundtrack, too; why the new movie was only 5.1 I'll never understand. I personally feel the 6.1 surround mix of the LOTR movies is lacking.) It really just depends on the source and how much of an envelopment you happen to prefer. Some people don't like being in the middle, so to speak. And, the mixes on some soundtracks, IMO, are too foucsed on the front soundstage.

For sources other than discrete 7.1, you can upmix with various formats like Dolby ProLogic IIx. My receiver has a couple other options, and they are all a little different. The results differ by source as well. It's a less than ideal world for 7.1 afficionados, but it's what we have.

Hey, thanks for the post. Yeah Dolby IIx does a pretty good job from what I hear (read), so I think I'll still be able to use the full 7.1 for most of the stuff I watch. And I agree that most movies seem to put too much focus on the front sound stage, I remember the first time I heard 5.1, I was expecting so much more.

I'm going to setup for 7.1, it will be a pain to get one of the side speaker wiring hooked up though, since my basement is already finished, but I think it will pay off.
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post #17 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

What do you mean you want to leave them in the rear??? If you had a 5.1 setup there are no rear speakers. 5.1 consists of surround speakers aka. side surrounds. So your speakers should have been 90 to 110 degrees to your side anyway.

Also in a DTS HD MA 7.1 and Dolby TrueHD 7.1 all 4 surround channels are pretty much used evenly. I use PLIIx to upconvert all my 2.0 and 5.1 to 7.1 and most times the sides and rears are utilized evenly with that as well.

But if you have 7.1 speakers setup and you choose to only run 5.1 for a 5.1 source you will only have sound out of your side surround speakers and NOTHING from your rears as they don't extist in 5.1.

My room is 11' X 23' and I have 7.1 and have 6' from seating to rear speakers and it sounds great.

Awesome, I think I'm going for it, I'm gonna have to cut out some holes and figure out how to do the wiring (walls are exterior basement, and insulated), but I'll figure it out.

When I said "I'll leave them at the rear" I just meant, put them there. I know 5.1 is meant to be setup as "side" surround, it's just not always convenient.

P.S. thanks for the feedback on Surround side vs Rear Surround for sound distribution, this is one thing I was really interested in.
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How do you guys feel about the Rear Surrounds (7.1) being in the Back corners of the room?

Ideal placement seems to put them at the rear, on the wall (front facing), but I'm wondering how much of a difference it would make to stick them in the corner?

Here's a picture of my current setup, to show everyone how it's setup.

I will be building a wall on the RIGHT side, to close off the room.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/img0233pm.jpg/
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post #19 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:33 AM
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OK, so there's 4' clearance between the couch and the back wall, correct? Also-how much smaller are the proposed surrounds than the Pioneers?

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post #20 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Before you start the project you should try to post some pics of your proposed layout as you might get some helpful ideas.


edit: and there are the pics...



Any ideas would be extremely welcome, as this is my first time building a Home Theater. I've seen some pretty crazy expensive setups, and I am not aiming to make mine comparable, I still want it to be the best it can be, and will try to accommodate any intelligent suggestions.

By the pics, you can see why I want Small Side Surrounds.
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post #21 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by master0068 View Post
How do you guys feel about the Rear Surrounds (7.1) being in the Back corners of the room?

Ideal placement seems to put them at the rear, on the wall (front facing), but I'm wondering how much of a difference it would make to stick them in the corner?

Here's a picture of my current setup, to show everyone how it's setup.

I will be building a wall on the RIGHT side, to close off the room.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/img0233pm.jpg/
Harman Kardon's recommended corner layout is consistent with Floyd Toole's recommendation in his book, IIRC.

 

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post #22 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amicusterrae View Post

Harman Kardon's recommended corner layout is consistent with Floyd Toole's recommendation in his book, IIRC.

Hmm...

This one shows rear wall speaker placement, but, at least what you've shown me, means, it can still "work" almost as well.. ?

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...rplacement.pdf
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post #23 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

OK, so there's 4' clearance between the couch and the back wall, correct? Also-how much smaller are the proposed surrounds than the Pioneers?

When I saw that you posted the pics I edited the above post with two questions.

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post #24 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

OK, so there's 4' clearance between the couch and the back wall, correct? Also-how much smaller are the proposed surrounds than the Pioneers?

Here's what I'm thinking of doing...

Moving the seats up so that the MAIN 4 seats, are 4' from the wall, and setting up a Bench in the back, for the UFC nights where I have more than a few guys over for fights. I don't care about the sound for those viewers, only the 4 main seats. BUT, it makes speaker placement on the rear wall difficult/impossible, which is why I want to keep the rears in the corners.

As for the sattelites, they are tiny little guys, like Bose Speaker size. And I purchased some low profile speaker mounts (tiltable) which sit the speaker 2" from the wall. So that means about 6" from the wall.

The BS21s would need a fancy Speaker stand/holder, which would be about 4" from the wall, and the speaker is about 8-10" in length. so it would stick out about 12"/14" vs 6".
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post #25 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by master0068 View Post

Hmm...

This one shows rear wall speaker placement, but, at least what you've shown me, means, it can still "work" almost as well.. ?

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...rplacement.pdf

This article is bit older. You'd have to check Toole's book (and I can't access my copy right now), but I recall a discussion about the alternatives and a review of some limited listening test. My personal experience has been better envelopment off the back wall, firing to the listening area at an angle, but as always YMMV, and it would be wise to experiment as much as you can before finalizing the installation.
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post #26 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amicusterrae View Post

This article is bit older. You'd have to check Toole's book (and I can't access my copy right now), but I recall a discussion about the alternatives and a review of some limited listening test. My personal experience has been better envelopment off the back wall, firing to the listening area at an angle, but as always YMMV, and it would be wise to experiment as much as you can before finalizing the installation.

Yeah, when you just THINK about sound, and having speakers directly behind you, as opposed to the corner behind you, you figure it can't sound the same, but by the way movies are encoded, I figure this would almost be more of a concern for video games than actual movies.

You don't often hear crystal clear sounds coming from behind you in movies that would benefit immensely from being a few degrees close to behind you vs behind/corner of you.

It really sucks, because we (or just I?) make sacrifices to the Home Theare just so that it can accommodate a few more people, which is really only 10% of the time. BUT, I need to be able to host UFC events (which I do about once a month) and if a couple of people come over (more than 4 including myself) I need that extra seating in the back...

If I was a millionaire this room would be wider, but we gotta do what we can, with what we got. Besides, 4 seats accommodates me, my gf, and 2 others, which is 80% of occassions.
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post #27 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by master0068 View Post

How do you guys feel about the Rear Surrounds (7.1) being in the Back corners of the room?

Ideal placement seems to put them at the rear, on the wall (front facing), but I'm wondering how much of a difference it would make to stick them in the corner?

Here's a picture of my current setup, to show everyone how it's setup.

I will be building a wall on the RIGHT side, to close off the room.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/img0233pm.jpg/

Depending on the distance that could work. I would try facing them toward each other and let them ' bounce ' off the rear wall.

Kaboom.
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post #28 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wingnut4772 View Post

Depending on the distance that could work. I would try facing them toward each other and let them ' bounce ' off the rear wall.

Here you go.

I decided to draw up something real quick so everyone could see my setup.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...metheater.jpg/

5.0 speakers are the Pioneers, and 2.0 speakers are another brand of small satellite speakers.

It's going to be Front, Center and Rear Surround Pioneer, and Side Surround the small sattelites.

I think I will use Dolby IIx for ALL 5.1 mixed movies, so I will always be using 7.1.
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post #29 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 11:50 AM
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Looks decent... I would maybe move the rears inward about 1 foot out of the corner. And also for me I prefer higher surrounds and rears, you may wanna try like 2 or 3 feet above seated ear level.

Shawn
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post #30 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 11:57 AM
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Seeing the pics has been helpful, and your room has the potential to be really nice. If it were me I would somehow find a way (if at all possible) to keep the Pioneers together as a proper 5.0 setup, and use the satellites as back speakers 6 & 7. I know you're concerned that the Pioneers are too big for surrounds but if they're up high enough on the wall you should be fine. Using the mounts I linked earlier each of my surrounds have 6'5" clearance underneath, as they're both above high traffic walkways (and I have no friends over 6'4" ).

I've attached a pic of my recently mounted surrounds and BTW I'm a huge MMA fan as well (I actually met Bas Rutten a few months ago, which was really cool).

Attachment 246144
LL

******************
Somebody told me it was frightening how much topsoil we are losing each year, but I told that story around the campfire and nobody got scared.
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