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post #31 of 159 Old 05-25-2012, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so we've got stereo, holographic imaging, soundstage and pornographic. I still like "floating notes."

I guess another way to express what I am talking about would be to compare 2D vs 3D television. Some speakers produce an amazing yet flat image (2D) while some make you feel like the image is in the room with you, occupying 3 dimensional space.

Did I do too many drugs? Maybe.
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post #32 of 159 Old 05-25-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

Okay, so we've got stereo, holographic imaging, soundstage and pornographic. I still like "floating notes."

I guess another way to express what I am talking about would be to compare 2D vs 3D television. Some speakers produce an amazing yet flat image (2D) while some make you feel like the image is in the room with you, occupying 3 dimensional space.

Did I do too many drugs? Maybe.

Nope, 3d is a good way to put it. I used the 3d analogy in my post. Imaging is the most common term I have heard. Recreating the spatial image of instruments.

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post #33 of 159 Old 05-25-2012, 06:10 PM
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You want 3D sound, and good imaging?

A Princeton scientist chose Ascend Acoustic CBM-170SE speakers to work with 3D sound.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...nds-like/8377/

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=4594

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post #34 of 159 Old 05-25-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystik610 View Post

yup!

The whole purpose of stereo imaging to create the illusion of a 3 dimensional soundstage from a set of point sound sources. The trend seems to be quanity over quality in terms of speaker set-ups these days (ie 7.1 and 9.1 setups)

It seems most of the audio industry has lost sight of that IMO.

If we're talking music and not movies, it's been years since most recordings really presented decent soundstages. Aside from little sweeteners here and there, the stereo in most recordings is about 80% nothing more than the stereo echo return and some phase effects or digital delay purposely created by digital processing.

I used to use an Apt-Holman preamp which had a phase control which you could set to left minus right, which left you with just the difference (stereo) part of the signal. Most of the time on modern recordings, all you hear is the echo return plus sometimes a little lead guitar or cymbal.

I think movies are better at creating spread, but not necessarily a sound stage, as they tend to keep the soundtrack music out of the center so that you can hear the dialogue. It will be interesting to see how mixers use the new Dolby Atmos format for theatres, which lays an object oriented mixing approach on top of the traditional channel approach so that you can place a mono sound anywhere in a 3D space. (Although I don't see why you couldn't send two or more objects at the same time to different points and create a sound field out of them).
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post #35 of 159 Old 05-25-2012, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

No. Multi-polar speakers simply add more delayed reflections into the total sound power perceived. There is no "additional" image, mostly a spatially expanded one. There is still only one singer on solo recordings, perhaps slightly deeper in the "soundstage", less ultra-precision. Much like real life, though audiophiles/studiophiles wouldn't know that.


Unless you are listening in an anechoic chamber, no they do not. Plus exactly how do you know "exactly what is in the recording"?? What method are you using to determine that? Speakers? Headphones? Which ones? Were you there originally?


Nope. Stereo itself is an artificial construct. Look it up, see how it's constructed. Multipolars are more artificially artificial?? Well....

Not aware of any controlled preference testing on consumers with monopole vs multipole in living rooms. No Harmans single poor example centered mono test doesn't count.

cheers,

AJ

Maybe I should have thrown in the phrase "relatively speaking" when I compared the two different systems (to get the discussion started, I was using generalities just to get the basic idea across).

I still think dipoles/bipoles are adding much more than the artist & engineer originally intended - I have never seen such speakers used as studio monitors - hence my opinion that the image they create is partly artificial (yep I am aware of room reflections and how most stereo images are created in a mixing console....except for certain recordings, like RCA's "Living Stereo" series [as you know, they used three mics for those classic recordings, but we'll not get into that here!]).

The first time I clearly heard front-to-back imaging was while auditioning a pair of B&W 801s way back in the early 80s. Amplification was McIntosh and the source was a huge Denon turntable with one of those Servo Tracer tonearms. Album was Supertramp's Breakfast In America. That was an eye-opening 15 minutes & really enjoyed myself. But a few years later my enthusiasm for that time was tempered a bit because I read somewhere that the vinyl format, particularly the cartridge, introduced certain phase-related distortions which supposedly added a dollop of three dimensionality to any music it carried (this would help explain why so many audiophiles at the time thought the image CDs produced sounded overly "flat" in comparison).
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post #36 of 159 Old 05-25-2012, 10:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Maybe I should have thrown in the phrase "relatively speaking" when I compared the two different systems (to get the discussion started, I was using generalities just to get the basic idea across).

You threw in a "IMO", so you're partially covered. I speak at the wider audience as factually as possible.

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Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

I still think dipoles/bipoles are adding much more than the artist & engineer originally intended

Perhaps. Have no clue, never contacted a single artist from my 1000s CDs (Have you?). Nor would I care, since I own it(music) to please me, not them. I sit in my living room, not the artist. Perhaps your outlook is vice versa?

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Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

I have never seen such speakers used as studio monitors

Right, nor will you see any soffit mount UREIs or tissue covered NS10s in my room, except maybe in the trash can. Once again, I'm not chasing shadows. My concern is what sounds spatially realistic to me, in my room. Not delusions of "accuracy" to an imagined "accuracy".

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Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

hence my opinion that the image they create is partly artificial

Partly artificial artificial? What part of stereo is a construct don't you understand? Monopole stereo speaker stereo is "unartificial"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

But a few years later my enthusiasm for that time was tempered a bit because I read somewhere that the vinyl format, particularly the cartridge, introduced certain phase-related distortions which supposedly added a dollop of three dimensionality to any music it carried (this would help explain why so many audiophiles at the time thought the image CDs produced sounded overly "flat" in comparison).

...and the list goes on, tubes, etc, etc...less sterile...less artificial. More realistic. Like multipoles.

cheers,

AJ

btw, what is your favorite donut???
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post #37 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 05:27 AM
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What the producer intended.....

I am tired of that phrase. Nobody knows what he/she intended. Why chase ghosts?
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post #38 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 06:28 AM
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^^^

Baseline. We all must start somewhere, and if accuracy of the system to produce the source as it was recorded is not a valid baseline then both manufacturers and consumers have been doing it wrong for a very long time.

What would you propose as an alternative?

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post #39 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

^^^

Baseline. We all must start somewhere, and if accuracy of the system to produce the source as it was recorded is not a valid baseline then both manufacturers and consumers have been doing it wrong for a very long time.

What would you propose as an alternative?

The only alternative is to buy speakers that please you, whether they represent the producers intent or not.
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post #40 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I always called that imaging. I'd say most people have never experienced it. It's a game-changer.

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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Sadly, most people haven't. Including most audio enthusiasts. The majority of enthusiasts are more concerned with bass that is 10 dB hot than accurate L/R mains, properly set up.

Reenforced when you hear people say they auditioned speakers that had great soundstage, with a wall of sound coming to them, which sounds like the opposite of what I want.

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post #41 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

Imaging, with a good front soundstage. Some people will also
use the term, holographic.

I have heard all these terms used, as well as 'air'... around the vocals, instruments, etc. Although, I believe the most common terms are soundstage and imaging (both left to right, and front to back).

Different speaker designs will have an effect on this, as well as speaker/listener position within the room.

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post #42 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

The only alternative is to buy speakers that please you, whether they represent the producers intent or not.

That's not a baseline, which is what I asked.

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post #43 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 08:40 AM
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I called it faerie dust

whether its because I'm closer to the sound, or the stellar imaging from these speakers is creating an illusion, its the first time I've realized I was listening to music and not speakers. The best analogy I can come up with - its like little winged creatures sprinkled faerie dust in the air, right in front of my monitor.

I bought a pair of bookshelf speakers to use on my desktop, the Mordaunt Short Carnival 2 - probably because of my close proximity to them while listening - was the first speakers I've owned to provide transparent imaging. Previously not a big priority in choosing speakers, it became high on my list for choosing mains in my home theater. This quest brought me to RAAL ribbon tweeters, Salk and ultimately Philharmonic Audio which, if owners are to be believed, provide an incredible soundstage.

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post #44 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 08:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Baseline. We all must start somewhere, and if accuracy of the system to produce the source as it was recorded is not a valid baseline then both manufacturers and consumers have been doing it wrong for a very long time.


I bought a pair of bookshelf speakers to use on my desktop, the Mordaunt Short Carnival 2 - probably because of my close proximity to them while listening - was the first speakers I've owned to provide transparent imaging. Previously not a big priority in choosing speakers, it became high on my list for choosing mains in my home theater. This quest brought me to RAAL ribbon tweeters, Salk and ultimately Philharmonic Audio which, if owners are to be believed, provide an incredible soundstage.

Nethawk, please explain to us how you are verifying the "accuracy" of each recording you play back, to the "intent of the artist/engineer". The actual method, not imagination, thanks.
I've never seen a Raal/altar in a studio over the past 30yrs, so this ought to be fascinating.

cheers,

AJ
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post #45 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You want 3D sound, and good imaging?

A Princeton scientist chose Ascend Acoustic CBM-170SE speakers to work with 3D sound.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...nds-like/8377/

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=4594

Chose, or those are the speakers he had on hand?

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post #46 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You want 3D sound, and good imaging?

A Princeton scientist chose Ascend Acoustic CBM-170SE speakers to work with 3D sound.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...nds-like/8377/

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=4594

If I could argue for buying speakers using grant money, I wouldn't buy $350 speakers!

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post #47 of 159 Old 05-26-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Chose, or those are the speakers he had on hand?

He apparently had specific needs, called Ascend, and asked for a lot of different measurements.

Dave wasn't even aware of the article until someone posted it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

If I could argue for buying speakers using grant money, I wouldn't buy $350 speakers!

Agreed! I read a lot of other related material to the article and research. Another speaker that was used was the GedLee Nathan....which had the highest level of directivity that the the professor had measured, which is he said is an important part of this research...and shied away from horn speakers because he said most of them added spectral coloration.

Here's a video of the professor talking about the research. There are some scenes with the CBM-170 in action. There is also another speaker, but I don't know what it is.
http://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/

It is pretty interesting stuff.

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post #48 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Nethawk, please explain to us how you are verifying the "accuracy" of each recording you play back, to the "intent of the artist/engineer". The actual method, not imagination, thanks.
I've never seen a Raal/altar in a studio over the past 30yrs, so this ought to be fascinating.

cheers,

AJ

Who are you quoting? It's not me.

I never said I was verifying the accuracy of any recordings I was playing back, rather as a baseline for speakers choice accuracy of those speakers has to be high on the list.

Your last statement indicates you're looking for entertainment, your last few posts have shown your willingness to tear people apart. Go play your little games with someone else, I'm not interested.

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post #49 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You want 3D sound, and good imaging?

A Princeton scientist chose Ascend Acoustic CBM-170SE speakers to work with 3D sound.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...nds-like/8377/

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=4594

Are you sure? I thought he measured a bunch including the Ascends, but found the GedLee Nathans more suitable to the more serious parts of his experiment, because they had the best directivity control of the speakers he measured.

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post #50 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 03:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Who are you quoting? It's not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Baseline. We all must start somewhere, and if accuracy of the system to produce the source as it was recorded is not a valid baseline then both manufacturers and consumers have been doing it wrong for a very long time.

Perhaps you can alert AVS that someone has hijacked your account and is posting stuff under your name without consent? That's who I quoted, verbatim, so there is no ambiguity. Sorry about the mix up.

cheers,

AJ
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post #51 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 04:12 PM
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Check what YOU put in quotes.

Maybe when you're back on your medication I'll play.

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post #52 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 04:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Check what YOU put in quotes.

Maybe when you're back on your medication I'll play.

That's ok. It was your argument that was absurd. Doesn't make you foolish, unless you stick to it rather than think. Since clearly you wish to avoid supporting to your claim and resorting to knee jerk reactionary ad hominem, we can add it the scrap heap of nonsensical beliefs repeated without thought.

cheers,

AJ
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post #53 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 04:45 PM
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You're making things up. What you claim I said was neither written nor intended. Go back and re-read, or find someone else for your trivial arguments. I'm not impressed.

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post #54 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Are you sure? I thought he measured a bunch including the Ascends, but found the GedLee Nathans more suitable to the more serious parts of his experiment, because they had the best directivity control of the speakers he measured.

Did you read the other part of my post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Agreed! I read a lot of other related material to the article and research. Another speaker that was used was the GedLee Nathan....which had the highest level of directivity that the the professor had measured, which is he said is an important part of this research...and shied away from horn speakers because he said most of them added spectral coloration.

Not sure about the GedLees being more suitable for the more serious parts of his research, but definitely important. What you say may very well be the case.

As far as the demonstration was concerned, for the author of the story, it was done with the Ascends.

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post #55 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

...resorting to knee jerk reactionary ad hominem, we can add it the scrap heap of nonsensical beliefs repeated without thought.

cheers,

AJ

Much like what I, and I'm sure others have done with your "nonsensical" (see how that works?) attacks the last few days. I can only presume its your medication doses, as the AJ previously observed was someone I enjoyed, and even sometimes learned from.

Seriously, you're off the track. If you continue to read anything but what I have clearly stated, then my previous assessment of you was clearly wrong, and my present conclusion will remain. I don't give a rat's ass what the producer/artist intended, and never stated anything of the sort. I only care that my speakers are capable of reproduction of what's delivered to me as a consumer as accurately as possible.

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post #56 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 05:25 PM
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Ahh, nuances are lost in the mobile app. I didn't catch the bolded, underlined, increased font of this quote, which I clearly made:

if accuracy of the system to produce the source as it was recorded

As an "amateur" (this is fun!) "manufacturer" (yippee!) surely you can understand that speakers should be accurate, no? If not, your prospective customers should be informed without delay. Perhaps this concept is "absurd", and it's all a matter of semantics.

I'll stick with my methodology for purchasing, you stick with yours for manufacturing. I can assure you, since your perception of speaker accuracy is among a "heap of nonsensical beliefs" the two will never come together.

cheers,

NH

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post #57 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 05:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I don't give a rat's ass what the producer/artist intended

Great, we're on the same page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I only care that my speakers are capable of reproduction of what's delivered to me as a consumer as accurately as possible.

Therein lies the issue. The thread is about spatial/imaging/reproduction. How do you know your reproduction is as "accurate as possible"(your words)? That's what I was asking. Now instead of getting mad at me, think it through. What is the reference A/B check? How does one determine spatial accuracy to a stereo construct you weren't there for? Even if you were, you just said you don't give a rodents posterior what was intended.
So how is that going to result in "accuracy"??


cheers,

AJ
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post #58 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 05:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

As an "amateur" (this is fun!) "manufacturer" (yippee!) surely you can understand that speakers should be accurate, no?

Amplitude on every axis, yes, That I strive for. That is a achievable, realistic goal.
Spatial accuracy? To what? Please tell me how I get there, I'll do my best to engineer it into my product.

cheers,

AJ
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post #59 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

Altec Lansing 2.1 desktop computer speakers - the surprise of the bunch because these also have great dancing notes. The system was $50 at Staples.

I use an Altec Lansing 2.0 set myself, and while they're hardly good speakers in most respects, they do indeed image very well (enough to notice).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Chose, or those are the speakers he had on hand?

I would guess that he approached Ascend Acoustics because of the design philosophy (accuracy and focus on measurements) and quality control there (all units measured and pairs matched for consistently good imaging). He also requested and received additional data from the company's owner and engineer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I read a lot of other related material to the article and research. Another speaker that was used was the GedLee Nathan....which had the highest level of directivity that the the professor had measured, which is he said is an important part of this research

The odd thing is that the CBM-170 SE is not designed for high directivity, and really only becomes directional above 10 kHz (or a bit higher), while the deep waveguide on the Nathan naturally helps make it more directional at lower frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Here's a video of the professor talking about the research. There are some scenes with the CBM-170 in action. There is also another speaker, but I don't know what it is.
http://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/

The other speaker looks like the Nathan, mounted with the tweeter on the bottom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Are you sure? I thought he measured a bunch including the Ascends, but found the GedLee Nathans more suitable to the more serious parts of his experiment, because they had the best directivity control of the speakers he measured.

Right, for use in conjunction with his special crosstalk cancellation filters, high directivity helps. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the normal soundstage of a speaker playing regular stereo material, by the way--in fact, it might narrow the perceived soundstage, and some folks even prefer omnidirectional speakers. For the purposes of this project, however, it is preferable to have as much control over as many variables as possible. Speakers that "beam" their sound are not necessarily favored around here, but that's exactly what Professor Choueiri is looking for.
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post #60 of 159 Old 05-27-2012, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Great, we're on the same page.


Therein lies the issue. The thread is about spatial/imaging/reproduction. How do you know your reproduction is as "accurate as possible"(your words)?

Yes, therein lies the issue. You're in a bullying mood these days, you see one word that is not directed at you, and swoop in to play your games.

Tell ya what. Maybe someone will IM me when you become normal again. Until then, strive for spatial accuracy in the fights you pick.

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