HT: Has anyone ever moved from high sensitivity speakers BACK to low sensitivity? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

with great amp reserve and headroom, then they won't even be able to tell the difference between the HE speakers and speakers like Harman's reference speakers JBL LSR6332 or other LE speakers that can play 90dB in their sleep. biggrin.gif

I bet we could tell the difference, such as in dialog intelligibility, dispersion, off-axis sound, etc. Some speakers, drivers and crossovers are just better than others, even for HT, and that applies to both HE and non-HE.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am sure the answers are out there but the chase is more fun to me than the finish!

It sure is fun. smile.gif


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post #272 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I bet we could tell the difference, such as in dialog intelligibility, dispersion, off-axis sound, etc. Some speakers, drivers and crossovers are just better than others, even for HT, and that applies to both HE and non-HE.
It sure is fun. smile.gif

I think he was talking about differences in dynamics at lower volumes. The speaker with the better attributes you mention is always the goal, even at loud volumes for me.
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post #273 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RTSW View Post

You do know I took db loss into account when I wrote my post right? Or are you purposely avoiding the obvious point that high sensitivity speakers aren't necessary for reference level sound in the average home?
It's hard to take you seriously when you insult everyone who disagrees with you and somehow believe that 125db peaks make for a totally different movie experience. I'm guessing that unique experience is one you can only see and can't hear right? rolleyes.gif

sorry but nothing to me in your post indicated to me that you took into account actual listening distance. 88db can reach reference level with 100 watts of power?... nope.

show your math

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post #274 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Beast did the math for you btw wink.gif
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

How did you do that? Loss of 6db's at 2m, and a shade under 10db's at 3m. Assuming most people listen between those two, lets just say there is an 8db loss from distance on your 88db 1w/1m speaker. Let's also assume the manuf. isnt fudging on that number:
88db 1w/1m - 8db loss from distance=80db@ listening position
88db @ 1 watt
91db @ 2 watts
94db @ 4 watts
97db @ 8 watts
100db @ 16 watts
103db @ 32 watts
106db @ 64 watts
109db @ 128 watts
112 db @ 256 watts
115 db @ 512 watts
subtract that 8db's at 512 watts you are now at 107db's at your lp. yay two db's of headroom! ok ok, these numbers are assuming free space, but still, I dont see a whole lot of consumer speakers out there that can handle 512watts.
I have125 db peaks too in the sub frequencies. THX requires an additional 10db peaks for the bass frequencies, and then I run my subs a little hot as well. 125db's in the upper frequencies where the human ear is most sensitive is insane and I wouldnt recommend it to anyone.
So reference peaks at just under 100 watts? still with no compression or distortion?

Brings up a lot of good points.

Like you said typical speakers cant handle 512 watts, they will start to encounter tons of power compression and probably have a garbage power response as well. On top of that buying an amp that delivers 512 watts in stereo will cost you more than top of the line high sensitivity speakers in the first place. Its the completely wrong way to reach reference levels.

Car analogies are a plague on this forum but im going to use one anyways... people love to fudge numbers to say their speaker can hit reference, its like comparing 120mph in a toyota camry to a high end bmw or mercedes benz. If you ever DO take those cars to 120mph then the camry is going to be a shaky ride not inspiring much confidence, but a bmw is designed to hit those speed on the autobahn all the time. Having that headroom and over engineering is vital, pushing a speaker to its limit to reach reference is not at all an ideal way to reach reference.

Does anyone know how i can turn this thread into a poll??

A lot of people are getting caught up in arguments when at the end of the day the results speak for themselves.. only one person has switched from high efficiency (94-95db+) back to lower 90s and their room was quite small. Not a single person with a big room has switched back to low efficiency speakers. From what i gather most people have never heard a high efficiency speaker, thus dont understand what it is to hear speakers that hit reference levels cleanly.

Thats really all that im trying to point out to people, learn from my mistakes, dont spend money on speakers that cant hit reference if you have a big room and want to have a serious home theater setup.

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post #275 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 11:39 AM
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Many good points, good discussion.

I believe what's at play here is this; the typical recorded program material that many of us enjoy, be it considered "widely dynamic" or not, requires extraordinary amounts of amplifier power for very short periods of time, to accurately track the signal. This has been measured and explained by several individuals,...one such being Tom Danley. I recall he insists power compression begins about 1/8 of the drivers rated power.

Also, to accurately track the signal to realistically reproduce sounds, one commonly needs a dramatically larger peak level than one would ever believe. SPL meters, even the very good ones availed to enthusiasts, don't really examine the peaks levels that real sounds possess. There are instruments that do however,...and these sounds possess huge peak levels. Therefore, if the film or music recording process captures the dynamics properly, which these days is easily technically possible, and offers them up relatively intact, then reproducing them without the associated coloration of peak clipping requires extraordinary amount of amplification power. As we're intimately familiar with,...especially in this thread, reducing the amplifiers requirements by utilizing high sensitivity systems, pays huge dividends even at supposed "moderate" playback levels.

Coloration, non-linearity,...call it what you want, however one can't reproduce the demanding material in your room (brief, high transient peaks) unless the system can pass them intact in the first place.

So yes, the Pro10's, Sho10's will be a nicer experience, even at a lower, moderate playback level. The peaks are more intact, less compression, be it thermal, or the less discussed magnetic.


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post #276 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I think he was talking about differences in dynamics at lower volumes. The speaker with the better attributes you mention is always the goal, even at loud volumes for me.
Oh I see - thanks.


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post #277 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Coloration, non-linearity,...call it what you want, however one can't reproduce the demanding material in your room (brief, high transient peaks) unless the system can pass them intact in the first place.

Thanks

But if the speakers are colored, have poor polar response and sound power they will not accurately portray the movie soundtrack. I'd rather lose a little dynamic range and have a linear speaker producing all the details and dialog clearly than a speaker that just gets screaming loud. I'm not saying all HS designs fall into that category, but many that I've heard do; some of the very ones being discussed actually. If the sound isn't clear, especially the dialog, then to heck with dynamic headroom, as it becomes moot at that point. If all manufacturers would just provide polar response plots we could weed out the crap and listen to the good designs right away. Not many manufacturers do that, though, even some with excellent polars. Pity...

To get back to the topic at hand, why would someone switch back to low sensitivity for dedicated Home Theater use if they already have a good speaker (such as the Catalysts for example)? I think the answer is: they wouldn't unless it was a dual purpose HT and music system and they didn't listen at reference levels.


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post #278 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

But if the speakers are colored, have poor polar response and sound power they will not accurately portray the movie soundtrack. I'd rather lose a little dynamic range and have a linear speaker producing all the details and dialog clearly than a speaker that just gets screaming loud. I'm not saying all HS designs fall into that category, but many that I've heard do; some of the very ones being discussed actually. If the sound isn't clear, especially the dialog, then to heck with dynamic headroom, as it becomes moot at that point. If all manufacturers would just provide polar response plots we could weed out the crap and listen to the good designs right away. Not many manufacturers do that, though, even some with excellent polars. Pity...
To get back to the topic at hand, why would someone switch back to low sensitivity for dedicated Home Theater use if they already have a good speaker (such as the Catalysts for example)? I think the answer is: they wouldn't unless it was a dual purpose HT and music system and they didn't listen at reference levels.

I remember when I had a 7 channel maggie system a 600 watt per channel amp(cinenova) and played reference levels with them. They were very clear, very detailed, and just sound accurate. Everything sound real except they were not exciting. They were compressing but not distorting. Now at the time I had no idea, I just thought they sound great. I then put in the M&K S-5000's and during the same scenes at the same levels they made me actually flinch or duck! All of a sudden it was exciting and raised your pulse a little. This is how I knew the Maggies were compressing but the Maggies still sound more accurate, not much more but their sound was sweet. The M&K's were very close in their representation, I mean close, but that excitement made me switch. Well, I have been on a quest since. So if the speakers still hold their composure that squashed peaks are not that bad, they just lose their excitement. The DR's I have are the first high sensitive speaker I have owned that sound like the Maggies with limitless dynamics. I really need to get some Maggies again, or any ribbon type speaker, and really see.
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post #279 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 01:40 PM
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I'm picking my 3.7's up tonight and will be driving them with an AVA amp that puts out 600wpc into 4 ohms. I'll let you know how they go. I also plan on picking up a set of CHT's to see how they compare for HT against the Mags.

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post #280 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

I'm picking my 3.7's up tonight and will be driving them with an AVA amp that puts out 600wpc into 4 ohms. I'll let you know how they go. I also plan on picking up a set of CHT's to see how they compare for HT against the Mags.

Very cool, I only had the MMG's and they were awesome for their price, still hard to beat for their price! I bet those Maggies sound awesome I just hope with enough power they can get louder. Of course being a dipole it is not the best speaker to have behind a screen. I know people say they power them with AVR's but there is no way 100 watts will get them to play a decent level. They would shut down most AVR's with their load.
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post #281 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Very cool, I only had the MMG's and they were awesome for their price, still hard to beat for their price! I bet those Maggies sound awesome I just hope with enough power they can get louder. Of course being a dipole it is not the best speaker to have behind a screen. I know people say they power them with AVR's but there is no way 100 watts will get them to play a decent level. They would shut down most AVR's with their load.

Totally agree. They need power. You should try to hear some of the big Mags - it is a much different experience than the MMG's. For two channel listening, I can easily take down my AT screen and move it to the side of the room.

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post #282 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 02:06 PM
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I'm picking my 3.7's up tonight and will be driving them with an AVA amp that puts out 600wpc into 4 ohms. I'll let you know how they go. I also plan on picking up a set of CHT's to see how they compare for HT against the Mags.

That's awesome man! I look forward to your thoughts.


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post #283 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 03:49 PM
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Why? Pre outs to the Seatons, and use your AVR amps to power your surrounds.

If I ever do go with Seaton stuff, it will not be just the C12's for the front, it will be the entire system. and to be honest, at that point, I'd have to get the Danely's involved smile.gif

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post #284 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Correct, my experiences anyways and I am no expert. BTW, with 90 dBs you don't even need amp reserves! In my experiences many HE designs don't even sound great at low volumes and I don't know why. Even though they have high sensitivity maybe they need a little more power to wake up or get moving? Maybe a lower sensitivity designed speaker is already using more power and moving it's cones and sounds better or maybe the LE speaker is just a better speaker but can't play loud. I am sure the answers are out there but the chase is more fun to me than the finish!
Think about this, high efficiency in a speaker is nothing new, in fact, it is very very old. Speakers Grandpa used were almost all very efficient.
Then, cheap amplifier power came along and heavy plastic speaker cones, efficiency was nearly forgotten.
It is a lot easier to make a low efficiency speaker have flat frequency response, because thicker cone materials tend to damp peaks better, but at the expense of efficiency.
Plus, it is easier to get low bass in a small enclosure, as long as you are willing to pizz away efficiency.
It almost seems that making an inexpensive high efficiency speaker driver that sounds good, is a lost art.
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post #285 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 08:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I'd be curious to know what most people consider "low sensitive" to be. Is it anything below 98dB sens? How about 92? 88? 85? Is it a subjective term or is there an actual standard?
That is a dilemma isn't it. Add to that the spec is often overstated and non-standardized.
Very funny thread. Par for the course on a forum, it's a fierce "Quien es mas ignorante" competition. Winner yet to be decided!wink.gif
Btw, as I have linked 100x before, you can see compression effects in some Soundstage NRC measurements.
See how quickly some speaker types unravel.

cheers,

AJ
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post #286 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Not a single person with a big room has switched back to low efficiency speakers.
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

why would someone switch back to low sensitivity for dedicated Home Theater use if they already have a good speaker

And how many people would choose 5 Seaton or 5 JTR over 5 Revel Salon2 if they could own any of them for FREE?eek.gif
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post #287 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

And how many people would choose 5 Seaton or 5 JTR over 5 Revel Salon2 if they could own any of them for FREE?eek.gif

There is someone here that did exactly that. (Revel to JTR).tongue.gif


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post #288 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 10:29 PM
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And how many people would choose 5 Seaton or 5 JTR over 5 Revel Salon2 if they could own any of them for FREE?eek.gif
I would not, that's for sure!
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post #289 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 10:32 PM
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That's awesome man! I look forward to your thoughts.

+1

Magnepans have always fascinated me. Some day maybe...

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post #290 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 10:38 PM
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There is someone here that did exactly that. (Revel to JTR).tongue.gif
I am not religious, but my Mom is. I will have her light a candle to St Jude (The Patron Saint Of Lost Causes)
I can only speak for myself, but it would be a cold day in Hell before I parted with a pair of Revel Salons for ANY pair of JTR speakers.
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post #291 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 10:50 PM
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+1
Magnepans have always fascinated me. Some day maybe...
Maggies are very very musical. I owned several pairs, but never with a center channel.
I had Magnepan MG 3A's using some Big Monoblocks on them. They are extremely good for music, and image all over the place. However, on speech (movies and TV) you could hear the effects of the room, because they are dipoles. I also owned B&W 801's at the time (outstanding for speech)
The Magnepans in my room could not unseat the B&W 801's for movies and TV Watching.
Once you have heard speech reproduced properly, you will never forget it. The British are Anal about speech reproduction, and it has rubbed off on me.
Since Movies are nearly 95 percent speech, I think speech reproduction is THE most important thing to look for in a speaker used for both music and Movies/TV

My room has paneling made of thin wood. The Magnepans excited the wood paneling, because they are dipoles. In YOUR room, they may be fine.
I find the Magnepan Midrange to be excellent, in most of their speakers, rivaling the B&W 801, and actually beating it, in some aspects of midrange reproduction.
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post #292 of 675 Old 06-21-2012, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ka7niq View Post

I am not religious, but my Mom is. I will have her light a candle to St Jude (The Patron Saint Of Lost Causes)
I can only speak for myself, but it would be a cold day in Hell before I parted with a pair of Revel Salons for ANY pair of JTR speakers.

Well, unlike 99% of the folks commenting here, he has actually heard both of them in his room, with his gear.

So I stake a little more value into his thoughts on the issue than most.


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post #293 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ka7niq View Post

It is a lot easier to make a low efficiency speaker have flat frequency response, because thicker cone materials tend to damp peaks better, but at the expense of efficiency.

confused.gif

What peaks are being damped by thicker cone materials? Certainly not spectral domain peaks of a frequency response diagram.

Peaks in a frequency response diagram show increased sensitivity at those frequencies.

Remember, it's called "AV Science"!

My HT
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post #294 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ka7niq View Post

I am not religious, but my Mom is. I will have her light a candle to St Jude (The Patron Saint Of Lost Causes)
I can only speak for myself, but it would be a cold day in Hell before I parted with a pair of Revel Salons for ANY pair of JTR speakers.

We know your stance.
Quote:
I also owned B&W 801's

We also know this too. Bottom line is you are a bigger fan of the consumer line stuff than the pro-audio style stuff. To each his own. The point of this thread is for folks to who have moved back to explain why they did, but also for folks like you to weigh in as to why you wont, but you really dont have to go to that length to push your cause on others here. I know you wont find me going back to ANYTHING less than around 100db sens. speakers for a DEDICATED HT. heck yea I listen to 2 channel on it too, and a decent amount at that, and I still love what I hear when I crank it. I want the best of both worlds and I feel what I have is perfect for that, but if I was doing TWO seperate systems, I would definitely rock some salk soundscapes or something of that nature for two channel audio, and keep the JTR's for movie viewing.

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post #295 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

There is someone here that did exactly that. (Revel to JTR).tongue.gif

Was it from two Ultima1 Studio1 speakers to JTR?

But not quite five Salon2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif

Or five Studio2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif

Will the Salon2 or Studio2 start to compress/ distort @ 110dB?
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post #296 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Was it from two Ultima1 Studio1 speakers to JTR?
But not quite five Salon2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif
Or five Studio2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif
Will the Salon2 or Studio2 start to compress/ distort @ 110dB?

Revel Ultima Studio 2 to JTR


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post #297 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Was it from two Ultima1 Studio1 speakers to JTR?
But not quite five Salon2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif
Or five Studio2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif
Only matters if If you think having five of them makes the front stage more dynamic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Will the Salon2 or Studio2 start to compress/ distort @ 110dB?
Are you seriously asking if the speakers start to compress at 200 Watts for 110 dB at 1m? Or do you mean at 3 m, when more than 200W are required?

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post #298 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Only matters if If you think having five of them makes the front stage more dynamic.
Are you seriously asking if the speakers start to compress at 200 Watts for 110 dB at 1m? Or do you mean at 3 m, when more than 200W are required?

Yeah, @ 3m away.
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post #299 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yeah, @ 3m away.
So do they start to compress at something between 500W (assuming room gain with corners) to 2000W (assuming no room gain at all; no likely)? It's a fair assumption that they are heavily into compression by then.

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post #300 of 675 Old 06-22-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Was it from two Ultima1 Studio1 speakers to JTR?
But not quite five Salon2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif
Or five Studio2 to five JTR. biggrin.gif
Will the Salon2 or Studio2 start to compress/ distort @ 110dB?

You can read about it yourself: http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/JTR-replaces-Revels-in-Home-Theater-3381992

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