HT: Has anyone ever moved from high sensitivity speakers BACK to low sensitivity? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 08:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Not very clear sounding in the midrange compared to Salon, KEF Reference, Orion, Philharmonic Audio.
Probably the lousy cabling and DACs.
Using crap like Mogami (that's imbedded in 90% of the CDs Audiophiles use to "hear" cables) and Behringer type AKMs (again, better than what made the recordings being used to "hear" DACs).
Or maybe the speakers suck. Nothing that a bunch of crap stuck to the walls couldn't "fix".
Has it stopped raining yet?smile.gif

cheers,

AJ
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post #362 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

In my room a 100db peak at the seats would require about 110db from the speaker. Isn't that right at the max limit on those speakers? I can't imagine any speaker sounding good at its max SPL limit. I would want to have at lest 3db of headroom available. Same goes for my amplifier.

How big is your room? I see your point ,but wouldn't you be better off with lower SPL's and higher quality reproduction. IOW does having the bigger room justify spending 5-10X the amount on speakers that might come close to the lower sensitivity designs. Are you a millionaire?
It's funny you mention max SPL.. The Dyn's have been known to sound best at very high volumes. Why is this? Is it because the speaker is being strained?

Normal soft listening level
60-70db

Normal listening level
70-75db

Moderately loud listening level
75-85db

Loud listening level
90+db

Loud passages like explosions peaks will be 100-110db

How much do you need? You want to go deaf? What kind of mature adult would listen to gunshots and explosions all day? smile.gif
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post #363 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Do they also make Seaton Sound's cabinets? I saw a sample that looked just like one of the cats, down to the built in amp.
I have a CD that has Cats and Dogs engaging in various activities, like fighting, mating, greeting, or just being Cats and Dogs.
I know this is very unscientific, but I have played it over the years on different speakers, to watch it;s effect on various Pets I have owned.
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post #364 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Probably the lousy cabling and DACs.
Using crap like Mogami
AJ

I know this is off topic, but how the heck did you just classify Mogami as a lousy/crap cable? It's used in 90% of studios. Are you saying it's overkill?
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post #365 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 08:59 AM
 
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You can lead a horse to water.....
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post #366 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wasteofmoney View Post

How much do you need? You want to go deaf? What kind of mature adult would listen to gunshots and explosions all day? smile.gif

Not all day, but I want it when I sit down for the weekend movie or two cool.gif.

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post #367 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by wasteofmoney View Post

How big is your room? I see your point ,but wouldn't you be better off with lower SPL's and higher quality reproduction. IOW does having the bigger room justify spending 5-10X the amount on speakers that might come close to the lower sensitivity designs. Are you a millionaire?
It's funny you mention max SPL.. The Dyn's have been known to sound best at very high volumes. Why is this? Is it because the speaker is being strained?
Normal soft listening level
60-70db
Normal listening level
70-75db
Moderately loud listening level
75-85db
Loud listening level
90+db
Loud passages like explosions peaks will be 100-110db
How much do you need? You want to go deaf? What kind of mature adult would listen to gunshots and explosions all day? smile.gif

This is the classic disconnect between HT and music preference folks. When you listen to a symphony do you want it to sound like 3rd row center? Having attended many concerts of all types, getting closer to that live performance sound is what I was after. When watching a movie, I like a gun shot to have the same startling effect it has in the real world. Same with explosions or what imagine a dinosaurs foot steps might sound/feel like. Regardless if it's a bass drum, tympani, big horn section or a screaming lead guitar I wanted realistic sound levels.

Listening to these sounds at realistic levels is never an all day situation but when they happen in the context of a film or recording, I want them be be as realistic as possible and that requires an appropriate amount of SLP. I do not want to "go deaf" but I found myself frustrated when my LE audiophile speakers fell short of the mark in those specific situations. They were great for listening sessions at lower SPL and occasionally gave me goose bumps with music and that was nice. But if I put on AC/DC or Springsteen or ??? and wanted a concert level experience, they were simply incapable of getting there.

I'm glad you are happy with your Dynaudios. That is all that really matters as ultimately, this is all subjective anyway. smile.gif

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #368 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

But if I put on AC/DC or Springsteen or ??? and wanted a concert level experience, they were simply incapable of getting there.
I'm glad you are happy with your Dynaudios. That is all that really matters as ultimately, this is all subjective anyway. smile.gif

That's true, but even if you have the higher SPL you wil only get marginally closer to concert level no matter how much you spend, but that's subjective too. Were dealing with reproduction here. Since my hobby cash is limited, I prefer to spend it on live events. I'm also in the "todays music sucks" camp so I can see the importance of having a higher end stereo system in the home. Many of my favorte artists are deceased, or really old. I live in Chicago, but I noticed many people on this site live in remote areas with inconvenient access to live entertainment. In this situation a sub-par mancave is unacceptable;)
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post #369 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 12:50 PM
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You a right, where I live, there are not many good bands rolling through all that often and when they do, there are only a small handful of venues that actually have good SQ. I love seeing my favorite bands play live but I can only think of a small number of times, I've actually though the sound was really good. A Perfect Circle about 6-7 years ago was by far the best sounding concert I've ever been to. I've seen a few acoustical shows as well and they are always great as it's as good as it can possible get, nothing to get in the way of the sound.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #370 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 12:53 PM
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Here are some Beer Budget High Efficiency Speakers that I have heard some good things about, from audiophile friends I have known for many years.
I also have heard great things about a company called SP Tech who make a waveguide speaker from some of my friends.
Unfortunately (or Fortunately), most of my friends are Audiophiles, who will not even listen to a system if there are more then one pair of speakers in a room, much less a freakin Huge TV!
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post #371 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Probably the lousy cabling and DACs.
Using crap like Mogami (that's imbedded in 90% of the CDs Audiophiles use to "hear" cables) and Behringer type AKMs (again, better than what made the recordings being used to "hear" DACs).
Or maybe the speakers suck. Nothing that a bunch of crap stuck to the walls couldn't "fix".
Has it stopped raining yet?smile.gif
cheers,
AJ

It's been sunny the past 2 days. Just got back from the beach. biggrin.gif

They had some Yamaha pro cab speakers by the pool too. No wonder I returned those Yamaha last year. biggrin.gif

Next year, I need to check the kind of speakers the resorts have before booking! eek.gif
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post #372 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It's been sunny the past 2 days. Just got back from the beach. biggrin.gif
They had some Yamaha pro cab speakers by the pool too. No wonder I returned those Yamaha last year. biggrin.gif
Next year, I need to check the kind of speakers the resorts have before booking! eek.gif
Well, here in Tampa, we have Tropical Storm Debbie pulling in moisture on us. It has been raining, and I mean raining, for 3 solid days now, with more to come.
The rain has really cleaned up the electricity though, LOL
I listen to speakers, everywhere I go too.
In fact, I was out in a Bar recently, and heard the Mackie SRM 450's, I think they were ? They were very impressive, for making a Bar Band sound good, compared to some other crap I have heard.
I have always wanted to get a pair of them in my house, just for the hell of it, and see what happens ?
I have also wanted to get a few pairs of powered studio monitors, and try them in my main room.
I just bought a pair of Fostex 5 inch Powered studio monitors for my computer, and they are most impressive, here in the bedroom.

Seriously, the little Mackie SRM 450's kicked Ass, and sounded great doing it, in that Bar!
They seem to be very adjustable too, a good thing! I would love to get a pair in my home, just to try them. I wonder how and IF they image, and how they will do on voices and music ?
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post #373 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It's been sunny the past 2 days. Just got back from the beach. biggrin.gif
They had some Yamaha pro cab speakers by the pool too. No wonder I returned those Yamaha last year. biggrin.gif
Next year, I need to check the kind of speakers the resorts have before booking! eek.gif

It's actually funny you should say that. In March I was at the Iberostar Grand near Cancun and they had all pro JBL stuff in their auditorium and around the pools and such. Actually sounded pretty good I though! the Year before We were at El Dorado resort near Cancun and they had a pretty bad yammy setup, for 3K a week each, you'd think they could splurge for a nice sound system by the pool! lol

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #374 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 01:32 PM
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So is 94db sensitivity considered high efficiency?

These klipsch rf-83's and rc-64 have 94db sensitivity

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-reference-rf-83-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
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post #375 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 02:12 PM
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high-ish ? To me, 100+ is high sensitivity.

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post #376 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasteofmoney View Post

How big is your room? I see your point ,but wouldn't you be better off with lower SPL's and higher quality reproduction. IOW does having the bigger room justify spending 5-10X the amount on speakers that might come close to the lower sensitivity designs. Are you a millionaire?
It's funny you mention max SPL.. The Dyn's have been known to sound best at very high volumes. Why is this? Is it because the speaker is being strained?
Normal soft listening level
60-70db
Normal listening level
70-75db
Moderately loud listening level
75-85db
Loud listening level
90+db
Loud passages like explosions peaks will be 100-110db
How much do you need? You want to go deaf? What kind of mature adult would listen to gunshots and explosions all day? smile.gif

My room is small. Listening distance of 11' from mains. Room is treated and I lose 6db (at least in the frequency's that I measured) for doubling of distance. As I said, I am not a music guy. I am looking for an HT experience (audio wise) like you get when you go to a good commercial theater. At a good commercial theater, the sound has an impact, a suddenness to it that can be startling. That comes from clean dynamics and the ability to move some air. That is what I want my sound to be like. Now my bass, I want it to be able to go much lower than what you get at a commercial theater. As for video, I want it better than what I see at commercial theaters. No I am not rich. I have spent many years putting my system together and trying many different pieces of equipment.

I have also listened to many high end systems. I have an uncle that was into high end audio (100K plus systems) for many (35 yrs.) years. My brother has Meridian DSP6000 mains and he lives close to me. His system sounds very nice for music, but not what I would pick for HT. My brother prefers his system over mine for music, but for HT, he prefers my system. My brothers room is a lot more lively than my room.

As for going deaf, Listening to a movie at clean reference level is not going to get you near the required limit for hearing damage. Many people talk about not being able to listen at reference level. That it runs them out of the room. If that is the case, the system is not capable of playing clean reference level. What is happening is the peaks have reached their limit and are getting clipped. Al you are doing when you raise the volume is bring up all of the lower SPL levels in the sound track, so that there is not much separation between the peaks and the rest of the sound in the sound track and everything just sounds loud. You are also greatly increasing distortion. At that point there are no dynamics, just a bunch of loud noise, that nobody would want to listen to.

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post #377 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 02:37 PM
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Looks like some are already using the Mackie SRM 450's for home Theater cool.gif
I have never heard them, in a home environment. But when I heard them in a bar, it was literally a life changing experience.
Never before have I heard any speaker so small play so loud, and sound so good doing it.
Of course, live music was playing through them too wink.gif
I have seen used Mackie SRM 450's go for as little as 400.00 a pair.
They will also play LOUD, like loud in a Bar, so for home use, I seriously doubt loudness will be a problem.
They have all kinds of EQ adjustments on the back of of them if I remember right ?
They have their own built in amplifiers (bi amped and phase corrected with electronic crossovers), so all you do is go out your pre outs, plug them in, and maybe See God ?

Unless they are truly horrible, I have always wondered why the home theater crowd has not embraced them ?
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post #378 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wasteofmoney View Post

How big is your room? I see your point ,but wouldn't you be better off with lower SPL's and higher quality reproduction. IOW does having the bigger room justify spending 5-10X the amount on speakers that might come close to the lower sensitivity designs. Are you a millionaire?
It's funny you mention max SPL.. The Dyn's have been known to sound best at very high volumes. Why is this? Is it because the speaker is being strained?
Normal soft listening level
60-70db
Normal listening level
70-75db
Moderately loud listening level
75-85db
Loud listening level
90+db
Loud passages like explosions peaks will be 100-110db
How much do you need? You want to go deaf? What kind of mature adult would listen to gunshots and explosions all day? smile.gif

I get the impression that youve never heard high sensitivity speakers and are speaking from ignorance
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post #379 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ka7niq View Post

Looks like some are already using the Mackie SRM 450's for home Theater cool.gif
I have never heard them, in a home environment. But when I heard them in a bar, it was literally a life changing experience.
Never before have I heard any speaker so small play so loud, and sound so good doing it.
Of course, live music was playing through them too wink.gif
I have seen used Mackie SRM 450's go for as little as 400.00 a pair.
They will also play LOUD, like loud in a Bar, so for home use, I seriously doubt loudness will be a problem.
They have all kinds of EQ adjustments on the back of of them if I remember right ?
They have their own built in amplifiers (bi amped and phase corrected with electronic crossovers), so all you do is go out your pre outs, plug them in, and maybe See God ?
Unless they are truly horrible, I have always wondered why the home theater crowd has not embraced them ?

Over the years, I have read of several people using these in their rooms. I am not a real fan of the plastic boxes, but they do make for a good HT speaker. I use JBL 8340's for my surround speakers. Not the plastic box 8340A's. http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/8340.pdf

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post #380 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Over the years, I have read of several people using these in their rooms. I am not a real fan of the plastic boxes, but they do make for a good HT speaker. I use JBL 8340's for my surround speakers. Not the plastic box 8340A's. http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/8340.pdf
They might make for a killer BUDGET home theater set up, because they are available USED for around 400.00 a PAIR !
I own the largest and oldest roof cleaning company in tampa and make pretty good money. But I am also a Ham Radio Operator of over 25 years. Us Ham's are notoriously cheap. I call it "being frugal".
I could drop 5 grand tomorrow on whatever speakers I want, but I am too cheap to do so, so I hunt bargains and "sleepers"
I kind of "Get Off "on finding bargains, if anyone can relate ??
I go to the Salvation Army Stores here in Tampa, but only on Wednesdays (They are 1/2 price on Wednesdays only)
Heck, I found very clean, and barfely used Levi Silvertab Jeans for 3.00 a pair!


The Mackie SRM 450's will do 127 DB Peaks! Ok, they cheat a little by reducing low bass (to save amplifier power) if you really really lean into them. In a home theater situation, I doubt this will be a problem, especially if you set your front speakers crossover to send bass to your subs.
Here is an Audiophile on AudioGon praising the Mackie SRM 450

There have been some concerns about Horn Hiss on the Mackie SRM 450, but that was a way of life when I owned Klipschorns, LOL
Simply turn the GD things OFF, when not in use, huh ?

I have never heard the Mackie SRM 450's, but I see Home Theater Guys spending plenty on huge amplifiers and very very expensive speakers, to get those " make you jump" dynamics.
I think the 127 db capability of a pair of Mackie SRM 450's might "get your attention" ?
Would it not be a real Mind Fuk if someone could get an inexpensive low powered home theater receiver (with pre outs to drive the Mackies) and pick up a used pair of Mackie SRM 450's for 400.00 dollars, and come close to the dynamics and sound quality of a mega dollar home theater system ?

Honestly, I have several pairs of speakers of high sound quality efficient speakers that will play MEGA Loud. But this is what I have noticed. Once you really really crank a pair of speakers, sound quality is nearly always lost, unless the room is highly treated!
This is because the room starts to rear it's ugly head with all it's reflections.

EDIT: - The price I said a Pair of used Mackie SRM 450's sold for (400.00) is Incorrect! That price is for ONE Speaker, not 2!
Still, once could have a pair of Used Mackie SRM 450's for under 800.00, and that is less then One JTR or Seaton.
And remember, that price includes built in amps.
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post #381 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 04:45 PM
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Here is another speaker that is very inexpensive ( a pair for under 600.00 brand new) that has it's own amps built in, and will play to 127 DB Peaks.
It has a ton of EQ possibilities built in, and the freq response chart shows nearly ruler flat response, and good polars. Listen to the guitar later in the video, it sounds pretty good!
I think Carvin sells only direct, but with a money back guarantee trial, if you don't like them.
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post #382 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wasteofmoney View Post

That's true, but even if you have the higher SPL you wil only get marginally closer to concert level no matter how much you spend, but that's subjective too. Were dealing with reproduction here. Since my hobby cash is limited, I prefer to spend it on live events. I'm also in the "todays music sucks" camp so I can see the importance of having a higher end stereo system in the home. Many of my favorte artists are deceased, or really old. I live in Chicago, but I noticed many people on this site live in remote areas with inconvenient access to live entertainment. In this situation a sub-par mancave is unacceptable;)

Speaking of old artists, my wife and I went to see Neil Diamond at the Boston Garden last night (a Christmas gift to her). On the way home she mentioned "Your concerts (meaning my HT concerts) are louder than that".

A lot of folks here can meet or exceed concert levels with their setups if they so choose. Not that Neil Diamond is any measure of how loud things can get.....
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post #383 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 05:35 PM
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Speaking of old artists, my wife and I went to see Neil Diamond at the Boston Garden last night (a Christmas gift to her). On the way home she mentioned "Your concerts (meaning my HT concerts) are louder than that".
A lot of folks here can meet or exceed concert levels with their setups if they so choose. Not that Neil Diamond is any measure of how loud things can get.....
I love Neil Diamond too! I saw him here in Tampa a few years ago, and thought he should retire.
His voice is not what it once was, and it hurt me to hear him try to sing as he once could.
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post #384 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 06:08 PM
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I love Neil Diamond too! I saw him here in Tampa a few years ago, and thought he should retire.
His voice is not what it once was, and it hurt me to hear him try to sing as he once could.

Yeah he definitely picks his spots now. Looked good for his age though. Seems to be a trend... My son and I saw Springsteen at the Garden a couple months back and we both thought he's gearing it down too, even compared to as recently as a couple of years ago.
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post #385 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

I get the impression that youve never heard high sensitivity speakers and are speaking from ignorance

Actually I haven't heard too many. I'm very busy and don't have much time to audition, but the overall consensus here in this thread seems to imply that you have to get a second mortgage to get good sound quality with high SPL's, and i just don't think it's worth the money when you are dealing with reproduction.
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post #386 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post

Speaking of old artists, my wife and I went to see Neil Diamond at the Boston Garden last night (a Christmas gift to her). On the way home she mentioned "Your concerts (meaning my HT concerts) are louder than that".
A lot of folks here can meet or exceed concert levels with their setups if they so choose. Not that Neil Diamond is any measure of how loud things can get.....

Yes, you can exceed concert SPL levels easily, but it's still not the concert. I think a jackhammer exceeds concert levels but it's not very pleasent to the human ear:)
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post #387 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post

Yeah he definitely picks his spots now. Looked good for his age though. Seems to be a trend... My son and I saw Springsteen at the Garden a couple months back and we both thought he's gearing it down too, even compared to as recently as a couple of years ago.
We are ALL getting old it seems.
Springsteen was one of the most impressive people I ever saw in concert. He played HARD for nearly 4 hours in Seattle, and did 3 encores!
He was a well known health freak, who ran many miles every day, and it showed in his live performances.
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post #388 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 07:01 PM
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I don't know what it is about Springsteen, but 99% of his songs just annoy me, I've always tried to like hiim. Is it just me?
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post #389 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wasteofmoney View Post

Actually I haven't heard too many. I'm very busy and don't have much time to audition, but the overall consensus here in this thread seems to imply that you have to get a second mortgage to get good sound quality with high SPL's, and i just don't think it's worth the money when you are dealing with reproduction.

Why so vague?

"havent heard too many".. meaning what exactly? That you havent heard any of the models were discussing and are thus speaking from ignorance?

Also i would say your "consensus" is completely false. Its much harder to get sound quality from speakers that make tons of compromises for the sake of being aesthetics (ie skinny and small). You think your dynaudios are a no compromise speaker??? riiiiight.
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post #390 of 675 Old 06-24-2012, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

When you listen to a symphony do you want it to sound like 3rd row center? Having attended many concerts of all types, getting closer to that live performance sound is what I was after. When watching a movie, I like a gun shot to have the same startling effect it has in the real world. Same with explosions or what imagine a dinosaurs foot steps might sound/feel like. Regardless if it's a bass drum, tympani, big horn section or a screaming lead guitar I wanted realistic sound levels.
Listening to these sounds at realistic levels is never an all day situation but when they happen in the context of a film or recording, I want them be be as realistic as possible and that requires an appropriate amount of SLP. I do not want to "go deaf" but I found myself frustrated when my LE audiophile speakers fell short of the mark in those specific situations. They were great for listening sessions at lower SPL and occasionally gave me goose bumps with music and that was nice. But if I put on AC/DC or Springsteen or ??? and wanted a concert level experience, they were simply incapable of getting there.
well said. I agree 100%
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