HT: Has anyone ever moved from high sensitivity speakers BACK to low sensitivity? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Most people don't go to that extreme. And furthermore, a room that dead is not one in which I'd want to listen to recorded music.

^ This
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You should listen to a live concert in my room before you disregard it.

If it is really that dead then I don't need to, because I already know what it'll sound like...
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

BTW guys, I have a friend who loses 10 dBs from 30 feet away. His room has some diffusers but that is about it. In his case he would not need very high sensitivity speakers BUT he listens insanely loud and kept blowing up his tweeters in his paradigms. Installed some JTR T8's and dual Cap1000's and now he just blows out his ears! He listens to 120-125 dBs or 110-115 dBs at his bar 30 feet away. My room is not even that big and lose more spl but my room sounds much better.

So he'll be deaf by 2013 then, eh? smile.gif

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post #542 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ This
If it is really that dead then I don't need to, because I already know what it'll sound like...
So he'll be deaf by 2013 then, eh? smile.gif

My room is not totally dead, it used to be with the looney bin room(wall to wall foam). My friend will be deaf by New Years or before. The funny thing is he thought is paradigms sound louder. His paradigms max spl before sounding very distorted was 105 dBs at the speaker or 97 dBs at the bar and he kept turning them up louder which of course resulted in fried tweeters every couple of months. He was missing all the distortion associated with the paradigms. I have a cousin who blows his signature 6 tweets as well. I keep telling him they are not loud speakers, keep the volume down on them. The soon to be deaf friend listens to music much more than movies and at an average of sustained 115 dBs! I listen to music at 100 dBs sustained and 108 peak max, movies at 105 dBs max but the bass, 125 dBs peaks(movies).

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post #543 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ This
If it is really that dead then I don't need to, because I already know what it'll sound like...
So he'll be deaf by 2013 then, eh? smile.gif
Do you have any pictures of your listening room?
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post #544 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My room is not totally dead, it used to be with the looney bin room(wall to wall foam). My friend will be deaf by New Years or before. The funny thing is he thought is paradigms sound louder. His paradigms max spl before sounding very distorted was 105 dBs at the speaker or 97 dBs at the bar and he kept turning them up louder which of course resulted in fried tweeters every couple of months. He was missing all the distortion associated with the paradigms. I have a cousin who blows his signature 6 tweets as well. I keep telling him they are not loud speakers, keep the volume down on them. The soon to be deaf friend listens to music much more than movies and at an average of sustained 115 dBs! I listen to music at 100 dBs sustained and 108 peak max, movies at 105 dBs max but the bass, 125 dBs peaks(movies).

You should really warn your buddy, though it may be too late already. Of course, if you listen to music at 100dB sustained you'll be as deaf as he is soon enough. smile.gif
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Do you have any pictures of your listening room?

Yup, and I've posted them on this forum (old house and new). Feel free to search them out if you're that interested.

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post #545 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 07:50 PM
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By the way, zheka, I have Floyd Toole's book right here next to me and I found the quote I was speaking of earlier (it's actually a few quotes). If you, or anyone for that matter, are unfamiliar with who he is, please take the time to check it out.

On page 496 of his book (entitled Sound Reproduction) under "choosing the multi channel delivery system" Dr. Toole says:

"Contrary to some beliefs, there is absolutely no difference between the loudspeakers required for stereo music and home theater uses, other than the need for the latter to play at high momentary sound levels for massive sound effects in movies."

On page 513 the good doctor goes on to say:

"These loudspeakers must be able to generate high sound levels, of the order of 105 dB for short durations, if one plays movies at reference -0- dB level. In combination with the other channels, and with the subwoofers engaged, the total sound level is even higher. Many people find that to be a bit loud-in both cinemas and in their homes-but it is a target to aim for."

Finally, on the same page he states:

"In rooms about 4000 cubic feet and under, well designed conventional cone-dome loudspeakers should have no trouble achieving the required sound levels. In larger rooms, one must be more selective because some loudspeakers may exhibit distress or transducer failure. However, there are also some highly refined designs that can deliver sustained amounts of sound."

So as you can see, this very topic has been studied and tested by actual industry professionals. Their results (Toole, Olive and likely many others), which can be found in his book and all over the Internet, speak for themselves. With that said, you guys can choose to believe whoever and whatever you want, but I am going to choose the research performed by a man (men) who is a leading pioneer in this industry. I also choose to believe my own findings through testing and listening. Each individual's experience will differ, however each person should be able to find the right speaker to suit their room and their needs without having to choose only a high sensitivity design to achieve both stereo music and cinema reproduction.

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post #546 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Yup, and I've posted them on this forum (old house and new). Feel free to search them out if you're that interested.
Would you kindly point me to one? I tried looking in the "journey" thread but could not find anything.
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post #547 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

By the way, zheka, I have Floyd Toole's book right here next to me and I found the quote I was speaking of earlier (it's actually a few quotes). If you, or anyone for that matter, are unfamiliar with who he is, please take the time to check it out.
On page 496 of his book (entitled Sound Reproduction) under "choosing the multi channel delivery system" Dr. Toole says:
"Contrary to some beliefs, there is absolutely no difference between the loudspeakers required for stereo music and home theater uses, other than the need for the latter to play at high momentary sound levels for massive sound effects in movies."
On page 513 the good doctor goes on to say:
"These loudspeakers must be able to generate high sound levels, of the order of 105 dB for short durations, if one plays movies at reference -0- dB level. In combination with the other channels, and with the subwoofers engaged, the total sound level is even higher. Many people find that to be a bit loud-in both cinemas and in their homes-but it is a target to aim for."
Finally, on the same page he states:
"In rooms about 4000 cubic feet and under, well designed conventional cone-dome loudspeakers should have no trouble achieving the required sound levels. In larger rooms, one must be more selective because some loudspeakers may exhibit distress or transducer failure. However, there are also some highly refined designs that can deliver sustained amounts of sound."
So as you can see, this very topic has been studied and tested by actual industry professionals. Their results (Toole, Olive and likely many others), which can be found in his book and all over the Internet, speak for themselves. With that said, you guys can choose to believe whoever and whatever you want, but I am going to choose the research performed by a man (men) who is a leading pioneer in this industry.

Toole's work is a good start but doesn't take most peoples home and different rooms into consideration. You poo poo HE speakers and say you believe all his work and he even says straight out that HE and traditional speakers are the exact same., so whats the thread about then? O ya, it's called design. You can design a speaker countless different ways to acheave your goals. He is way to general in his papers......"required" is the key work. A $3 car speaker is all thats required to play music but it sure as hell won't sound good doing it.

4000 cubic feet is 252 square feet, thats a pretty small room. Most of the guys with HE speakers have room WAY bigger than that. Dome tweets don't stand a chance to reproduce Reference in lots of the guys rooms. Whether or not you listen at reference is irrelevant, that is the goal for most guys who have detacated theaters. You can believe what ever the heck you want to, until you walk the walk, your opinion doesn't mean a thing to someone actually doing it.

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post #548 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 08:27 PM
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You can believe what ever the heck you want to, until you walk the walk, your opinion doesn't mean a thing to someone actually doing it.

You are asserting that Dr.Toole has not "walked the walk"?
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post #549 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The funny thing is he thought is paradigms sound louder.
They do, due to the high distortion levels. High THD makes a source seem louder. That's why you can play your system at much higher SPL than his without it seeming excessively loud or fatiguing.

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post #550 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

You should really warn your buddy, though it may be too late already. Of course, if you listen to music at 100dB sustained you'll be as deaf as he is soon enough. smile.gif

Yup, and I've posted them on this forum (old house and new). Feel free to search them out if you're that interested.
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You should really warn your buddy, though it may be too late already. Of course, if you listen to music at 100dB sustained you'll be as deaf as he is soon enough. smile.gif

Yup, and I've posted them on this forum (old house and new). Feel free to search them out if you're that interested.

Well it is a good thing I listen to music just for testing purposes and one to two songs max during the session. I might listen to music(song or two) once every 3 months. As for my friend, he makes his own decisions. Nothing I say will change his mind.

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post #551 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Toole's work is a good start but doesn't take most peoples home and different rooms into consideration. You poo poo HE speakers and say you believe all his work and he even says straight out that HE and traditional speakers are the exact same., so whats the thread about then? O ya, it's called design. You can design a speaker countless different ways to acheave your goals. He is way to general in his papers......"required" is the key work. A $3 car speaker is all thats required to play music but it sure as hell won't sound good doing it.
4000 cubic feet is 252 square feet, thats a pretty small room. Most of the guys with HE speakers have room WAY bigger than that. Dome tweets don't stand a chance to reproduce Reference in lots of the guys rooms. Whether or not you listen at reference is irrelevant, that is the goal for most guys who have detacated theaters. You can believe what ever the heck you want to, until you walk the walk, your opinion doesn't mean a thing to someone actually doing it.

All you have just proven is that you didn't pay attention to what I posted nor do you know what you're talking about. Congratulations. I never poopooed HE speakers, but the way. Try to pay attention during class young man. wink.gif

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post #552 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:08 PM
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4000 cubic feet is 252 square feet, thats a pretty small room.

A 252 sq. ft. room is 4000 cu. ft. if you have 16' ceilings. smile.gif A 16x16x16 room (pretty odd proportions) is 4096 cu.ft.
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post #553 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:16 PM
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You are asserting that Dr.Toole has not "walked the walk"?

No, Nuance.

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post #554 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:21 PM
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No, Nuance.

You think he's me? LOL. Oooohhh, this is good. I'm going to grab some popcorn and sit back and enjoy the show. biggrin.gif

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post #555 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:30 PM
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A 252 sq. ft. room is 4000 cu. ft. if you have 16' ceilings. smile.gif A 16x16x16 room (pretty odd proportions) is 4096 cu.ft.

Yeah. A room with 10' ceilings would be 400sqf. Seems like a pretty decent size to me.

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post #556 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:31 PM
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All you have just proven is that you didn't pay attention to what I posted nor do you know what you're talking about. Congratulations. I never poopooed HE speakers, but the way. Try to pay attention during class young man. wink.gif

O you poo poo them. O yes, they have been poo poo'd by you poo poo!

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post #557 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:32 PM
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You think he's me? LOL. Oooohhh, this is good. I'm going to grab some popcorn and sit back and enjoy the show. biggrin.gif

I could be wrong but I think he was saying "No, I was not claiming that Dr.Toole did not walk the walk, I was claiming the Nuance did not walk the walk" (N8DOGG please correct that if I am putting words in your mouth).
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post #558 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:33 PM
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You think he's me? LOL. Oooohhh, this is good. I'm going to grab some popcorn and sit back and enjoy the show. biggrin.gif

what? no, I think you haven't walked the walk.

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post #559 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:34 PM
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A 252 sq. ft. room is 4000 cu. ft. if you have 16' ceilings. smile.gif A 16x16x16 room (pretty odd proportions) is 4096 cu.ft.

Actually, thats is pretty much the exact size of my living room with it's vaulted roof lol

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post #560 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 09:43 PM
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"In rooms about 4000 cubic feet and under, well designed conventional cone-dome loudspeakers should have no trouble achieving the required sound levels. "

Perhaps, but i am fairly sure that loudspeakers with 5 inch woofers, expected to go to 40Hz while rated to handle 250w max power, cannot be among them.

Are you using any room treatments in your listening room?
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post #561 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 10:11 PM
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what? no, I think you haven't walked the walk.

Haha, think what you wish. It only takes a little searching on this forum to see that I have. I even put an event together for just this sort of thing. Get your facts straight. But this isn't about me, so take your agenda elsewhere.

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post #562 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 10:13 PM
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Actually, thats is pretty much the exact size of my living room with it's vaulted roof lol

Yeah, maybe it's not so odd -- my living room is 15'x25' with a 20' ceiling (connected to a same size kitchen/dining area with 10' ceiling)
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post #563 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 10:28 PM
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O you poo poo them. O yes, they have been poo poo'd by you poo poo!

That's interesting, considering one of my favorite speakers is the Seaton Catalyst. rolleyes.gif
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Perhaps, but i am fairly sure that loudspeakers with 5 inch woofers, expected to go to 40Hz while rated to handle 250w max power, cannot be among them.
Are you using any room treatments in your listening room?

You'll have notice I never claimed said speakers could or would, although you'll never know unless you try. Crossing them to extremely capable subs greatly increases the chances, though, as I imagine it does with most any speaker.

Again, what's with directing the point of the conversation at me? I hope you guys aren't trying to prove your point through personal attacks. But if you must know, yes I use room treatments. How does that remotely apply to the topic of this thread? Perhaps in proving what I already said, which is each person's scenario will be different? Otherwise I don't see where this is going...

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post #564 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 10:36 PM
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You'll have notice I never claimed said speakers could or would, although you'll never know unless you try.
Again, what's with directing the point of the conversation at me? I hope you guys aren't trying to prove your point through personal attacks. But if you must know, yes I use room treatments. How does that remotely apply to the topic of this thread? Perhaps in proving what I already said, which is each person's scenario will be different? Otherwise I don't see where this is going...

you rushed to dismiss MK's choices for acoustic treatments, so I am naturally curious to see where you are coming from. no need to be defensive. can you point me to the pictures of your room so that I do not bug you with these questions any more?
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post #565 of 675 Old 11-28-2012, 11:52 PM
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But Edgar is cognizant of the science which was largely unknown back in the day. BTW, my late father was fond of recounting that the best meal he ever ate was in 1933 and that my mother made a great fried chicken in 1955. Nostalgia?

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post #566 of 675 Old 11-29-2012, 12:12 AM
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You should listen to a live concert in my room before you disregard it.
MK's room is exactly where I want to listen to recorded music. uncompressed 5.1 music must sound awesome in there.

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post #567 of 675 Old 11-29-2012, 06:13 AM
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you rushed to dismiss MK's choices for acoustic treatments, so I am naturally curious to see where you are coming from.

He made it sound like his room is near anechoic, which is a place I wouldn't want to listen to music. I've listened to setups that were too lively and too dead, and it sounded terrible. Where am I coming from? I'm simply using my own experiences as my baseline. I also use research results from folks like Sean Olive and Floyd Toole, who've done countless case tests and studies (with actual listeners) on listening rooms and the right amount of acoustic treatment. You yourself said MK is losing 12dB at 12 feet, which speaks a lot as to how live or dead the room is (unless there is just something wrong with the system), so I didn't "rush" to dismiss anything.

Use the search function to find my room pics.

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post #568 of 675 Old 11-29-2012, 06:41 AM
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The 4,000 CF room is too much of a generalization. A basement HT room that is 14' x 30' x 8' with 24' listening distance (2/3rds back) is not going to have the same requirements of a living room that is 16' x 19' x 13.5' with a listening distance of 12'-8" (2/3rds back). One room is going to require twice as much wattage as the other to get to the same level. Add sound treatments to the basement HT room and you could require up four times the power to get to the same SPL. I recently changed my speakers and I was surprised at how much closer to reference level that I am now listening to movies. Used to listen at -10 to -15 master volume control for most movies. Now more like -2.5 to -6 master volume. Listening distance is within an inch of what it was and all equipment is the same. Used Audyssey XT32 for calibration of both systems with same mic placement.

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post #569 of 675 Old 11-29-2012, 07:38 AM
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Are there any HE speakers with great 3rd party measurements?

None, right?

Sure they can play loud. Would be nice to see a NRC or Stereophile measurement of the HE speakers.

Maybe that's why people say HE speakers just play loud, but not as great - there are no NRC or Stereophile measurements to back HE speakers?

Some people swear that Zu Audio speakers sound great. Yet Stereophile measured a Zu speaker with a FR of like +/-15dB. eek.gif

Some Wilson speakers measure +/-10dB.

Bose measures +/-10dB.
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post #570 of 675 Old 11-29-2012, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

He made it sound like his room is near anechoic, which is a place I wouldn't want to listen to music. I've listened to setups that were too lively and too dead, and it sounded terrible. Where am I coming from? I'm simply using my own experiences as my baseline. I also use research results from folks like Sean Olive and Floyd Toole, who've done countless case tests and studies (with actual listeners) on listening rooms and the right amount of acoustic treatment. You yourself said MK is losing 12dB at 12 feet, which speaks a lot as to how live or dead the room is (unless there is just something wrong with the system), so I didn't "rush" to dismiss anything.
Use the search function to find my room pics.



All the pics I ever uploaded to this forum are in my profile
The closest thing to a picture of a listening room I could find in yours is

900x900px-LL-6ad64e85_DSC_0893.jpeg

would you kindly point me to a better example? I'd really like to see what "the right amount of acoustic treatment" is in your opinion .
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