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post #631 of 675 Old 11-29-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I am not sure if the dispersion pattern for the ribbon version is the same, but the tweeter one is touted to have -6dB 60 degree off-axis response. This means that unless placed far away, there is no way to avoid unwanted reflections from the side walls. That's why most horn based CD speakers used in HT are attempting to stay within 90 degree or smaller horizontal dispersion pattern with dramatic roll off past that point .
the speakers look awesome btw

If the speakers have good polars/sound power, lateral reflections aren't necessarily a bad thing though, as proven in Olive and Toole's case studies. It improves "apparent source width" and imaging. This doesn't apply to speakers with poor polars/sound power, though.

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post #632 of 675 Old 11-29-2012, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

If the speakers have good polars/sound power, lateral reflections aren't necessarily a bad thing though, as proven in Olive and Toole's case studies. It improves "apparent source width" and imaging. This doesn't apply to speakers with poor polars/sound power, though.

Right. Wide dispersion is not as bad as wide dispersion combined with tonal imbalance.
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post #633 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Understood, but cheap DSP has changed all that. As recently as 15 years ago DSP correction was typically a unit that was specific to one speaker, and came at a cost of $3k-$5k, a unit without which the speaker simply wouldn't work. The EAW KF 850 was probably the best selling early example of the speaker with dedicated DSP, though what it did with DSP the Bose 901 did with an equally necessary passive network in 1968. But while both systems gave flat response...well, sort of flat with the Bose...neither could tune in room response. The current crop of less than $500 DSPs, a lot less if it's built into a receiver, can do both, so there's no need to jump through hoops to get the flattest possible response out of the box with the speaker provided you're going to use DSP anyway. That doesn't mean you can get by with sloppy engineering, but it does mean you don't need to wear suspenders and a belt at the same time when the belt alone will keep your pants up.

Absolutely. I have loved getting to know how to work my DCX. So you're saying it is a GOOD thing that I have xt32, the DCX, and an SMS-1? Haha. Overkill, perhaps, just want to try all options smile.gif

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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

If the speakers have good polars/sound power, lateral reflections aren't necessarily a bad thing though, as proven in Olive and Toole's case studies. It improves "apparent source width" and imaging. This doesn't apply to speakers with poor polars/sound power, though.
Thanks for the comment on the speakers, but those are not mine. These are mine:


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post #634 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

That's common knowledge that can be found at these forums in our GTG thread, and the person you spoke to was likely Mark Seaton or Jonathan. We all agreed that the JTR's were EQ'd too loud due to them rolling off at 70Hz or so, which is why we hooked them up again later; that's also mentioned in the event thread. It didn't change my impressions or anyone else's, though. What is also mentioned in the event thread is that we ran them full range per Jeff's blessing. We were going to hook them up and play them first with subs, but he said nah just go ahead. I asked if he was sure and he said yes. Jeff is a cool cat and super friendly. I highly recommend him, his gear and his level of customer service.
By the way, I had also heard JTR speakers before hand, and also afterwards as well. I'm not sure why you continue to bring this up, especially since they are designed to go ultra loud. Technically they should have maintained their composure better than the rest at higher volumes, no? I get you're not happy with the results of the GTG, but it's time to give it a rest. It's been almost 8 months, and next time you can host. wink.gif Just because someone has a differing opinion than you doesn't mean they should be hassled or their opinion should be dismissed. Move on!
P.S. I was just joshing you regarding Warp's subs. They are fantastic, of course.

Sorry not trying to harass you. I post just a few times in the GTG thread and this is only my fourth post in this thread. One of my posts in this thread was complementing a sub. Reading the GTG thread as an outsider, it did not look like the JTR speakers got a fair shake in the listening tests. Does not have anything to do with you or anyone else liking or disliking the JTR's. Nothing was ever explained in the thread about why the method was a stacked deck against the JTR's. Does not have any thing to do with the brand of speaker. Does not have anything to do with the speaker being a high sensitivity design. It would be the same problem with any speaker designed to be crossed to a sub at 80hz and yet set up using full range noise and then run full range. This is not me trying to protect my speakers. I don't use JTR speakers anymore. I would be making the same point if you used lower sensitivity designs that used soft dome tweeters such as: Triad Platinum LCR, Triad Gold LCR, Triad Silver, Triad Bronze, Atlantic Tech 8200 or 6200, MK Sound or any other brand. Granted the Triad Plats have pretty good sensitivity, they still use soft dome tweeters, no compression drivers. In other words you would have had the same issues, even with speakers that use Scan-Speak drivers and Seas tweeters.

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post #635 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Nothing was ever explained in the thread about why the method was a stacked deck against the JTR's. Does not have any thing to do with the brand of speaker.

Please go back and read the GTG thread again, as we clearly pointed out that Jeff chose to run his speakers full range. In case folks don't know, Jeff is the designer, and he attended the GTG (he's an awesome dude). I was planning on playing his speakers first paired with dual LMS subs, but when the time came he say nah, just go ahead and run them full range. Had we all realized this would cause such controversy we would not have run them full range and I would have insisted they get paired with a sub or two. With that said, it was known to the attendees months ahead of time that we were going to run full range only. Jeff chose the speakers he wanted to bring to our full range speaker GTG, and he was cool enough to bring them. Before the GTG I spoke to him through PM and said I wouldn't mind making an exception for his stuff and run them with subs, but again, in the end he chose not to. In retrospect I should have paid more attention to the JTR speakers F3 and had Jeff bring a Cap or two to use with them, but he never mentioned it and we didn't think about it. The deck was not intentionally stacked against JTR, and I gave Jeff a chance to run his speakers first with the subs, but he decided to just go full range. Once again you need to get your facts straight.

Are you done complaining about this now, or should we start our own thread in which you can huff and puff some more?

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post #636 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 06:45 AM
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Whether Jeff gave it the go ahead or not, running JTR's without a sub is simply ridiculous. They weren't designed to be used that way, plain and simple.
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post #637 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Whether Jeff gave it the go ahead or not, running JTR's without a sub is simply ridiculous. They weren't designed to be used that way, plain and simple.
That it right there and nothing more. Nothing to do with brand name.
No huff No puff. Just running a speaker full range that is designed to crossover to a sub will equal the negative impression one has. Crossedover correctly to a sub will sound completely different and not have the flaws thats heard when ran full range.
Lets FIND some common ground here please. this can be a mutually beneficial discussion if we try.
Thanks
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post #638 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I am sure there were JBLs reviewed by SP over the years.
Wayne Parham keeps all measurements of his systems, components and crossovers public. I find it quite remarkable really. I wish other designers would do the same.
http://www.pispeakers.com/Measurements/
I do not think these were performed by third parties, but the measurements of complete systems at least were reliably reproduced by the end users.

Missed this before. It is refreshing to see this on their website. If only all manufacturers would do this, even if they aren't performed by third parties.
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Whether Jeff gave it the go ahead or not, running JTR's without a sub is simply ridiculous. They weren't designed to be used that way, plain and simple.

So you're calling Jeff ridiculous then? It was his decision, so...
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That it right there and nothing more. Nothing to do with brand name.
No huff No puff. Just running a speaker full range that is designed to crossover to a sub will equal the negative impression one has. Crossedover correctly to a sub will sound completely different and not have the flaws thats heard when ran full range.
Lets FIND some common ground here please. this can be a mutually beneficial discussion if we try.
Thanks
Chris

Common ground would be nice, but the attacks keep coming even though I agreed they should have been run with subs. Folks seem to gloss over the fact that Jeff ultimately chose not to go this route, and that later at the even we did cross them to subwoofers (movies were awesome).

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post #639 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 08:24 AM
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FWIW, I have not read through the whole g2g thread in some time, and I understand both points being made here, but as it has been said, you can't neuter ANY speaker's response, and then expect it to sound good with other speakers that are running full band. I know Jeff said run it full band, but as Nuance said, check the f3 and f6 of his offerings, they are between 63 and 76hz IIRC, the rolloff itself is not surmountable in this case, they would never keep up, and making them try, would make response suffer. from 80hz up, the JTR's can throw blows with the best of the best, still i think no one is disagreeing here.

Just take a look at all the material from 20hz up to 70-80hz that a speaker would lose out on in the event it was either crossed at 80hz, or if its natural rolloff happened around the same.


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post #640 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Whether Jeff gave it the go ahead or not, running JTR's without a sub is simply ridiculous. They weren't designed to be used that way, plain and simple.

The whole point here that the subjective opinions should be taken in that light. It was an AV get together and is seems everyone had a good time. Hopefully it wasn't meant to be a critical listening session as there were many issues with setup and execution. It's nice that they were able to get so many products together and could give folks a taste of what they might sound like but it has hardly definitive as I assume it wasn't meant to be. The unusual mix of products made it difficult render a judgement regarding sound quality or capability but subjective comments were given.

My issue with this (and I was and called an attacker for stating my opinion) was that while most of the subjective comments were thoughtful and respectful, some were very disrespectful especially considering the specific conditions. I have talked to Jeff about this and because he is a "good guy", he really wasn't bothered by the rude and ignorant critiques of his speakers (my words, not his). That is what tarnished what was a fun day for a few hobbiests and industry professionals and any negative aftermath was mostly generated by the rudeness (thinly disguised as honesty) of those comments. IMHO

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post #641 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know we have discussed this before, but we really never figured out why. I want to know what the HE(specific ones) lack that the soundscapes or B&W, or whatever has. See, I believe one does not need to settle, they can have both.

I'll take a shot at this. There are considerations other than frequency domain performance when evaluating a speaker system.

The great majority of HE speakers use compression drivers for the mids and highs while typical direct radiators use some combination of cones, domes, planars/ribbons and ring radiators.

This is from the Pi Speakers Whitepaper (which I found very interesting and informative) that zheka likes to reference:

"An important requirement for the constant directivity crossover is top-octave compensation. As seen earlier, the power response of a compression driver falls off at 6dB/octave above mass-rolloff. In a typical 1” exit compression driver, this starts around 4kHz, so top-octave compensation generally adds about 12dB boost total."

What this tells me is that the typical compression driver will have poor spectral decay performance because of its high mass. A ribbon on the other hand is intrinsically low mass and will have far superior performance in this area:

http://www.alconsaudio.com/site/cinema/pro-ribbon-vs-compression-driver.html

The waterfall plot of the Raal RAAL 70-20XR (along with a good dome) is shown about half way into this document on its use in the Ascend Sierra Tower:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/Ascend%20Sierra%20Ribbon%20Tower.pdf

I could be wrong, but I believe spectral decay performance is a major factor why certain people prefer direct radiator designs vice HE designs. On average, their performance in this area is just better. You can listen at lower levels and still feel like you are not missing information. CD performance in this area may be improved by using extremely light and strong diaphragm materials (e.g. beryllium) but the cost becomes prohibitive unless the speaker is designed to a high price point. For example, I believe a TAD CD of this type goes for $2K for a single driver.

In addition, the CD in the great majority of cases is horn/waveguide loaded. I won't go into this subject except to say that the direct radiator adherents may also be basing their dislike of HE designs on hearing ones with poor horn/waveguide design. Wayne Parnham's paper does a good job of explaining why certain horn geometries sound the way they do. If you believe Earl Geddes, an oblate spheroid geometry and open cell foam placed in the mouth are required to achieve the best waveguide performance. Also, if a speaker uses a conventional horn design, the drivers will usually not be time aligned without the use of an active crossover (Danley's Synergy Horns excepted). This will distort the image somewhat especially in a folded horn design.

Every designer makes tradeoffs based on the requirements for the market segment and price point that he is targeting. Most HE designs are targeted for, or have their genesis from, professional sound reinforcement which imposes a set of requirements that a design must meet to function in that environment (high efficiency, high power handling, rugged construction). The home use market segment imposes a different set of requirements (low level clarity, imaging, aesthetics). The tradeoffs that a designer makes will be different in these markets.

Ultimately, each individual customer has his/her own set of threshold and objective requirements for an audio system. Any system that does not meet the threshold requirements will not make the cut. An example of this is that one person may enjoy movies with lots of special effects and be in the market for a HT theater system that can play at reference level or beyond. Any speaker that cannot meet this threshold requirement is rejected out of hand. Another person may be looking for a system for both HT and music, loves film scores and watches the majority of his movies with his spouse. This person's threshold requirement might be the ability to provide a satisfying listening experience at lower volumes.

The customer then rates the systems that meet the threshold requirements against the his/her objective requirements. The customer weights these objective requirements based on his/her sonic value system. This process will almost always be informal. A better approach would be to formalize the process and apply numerical weightings to these requirements and then score a system's ability to approach or exceed the objective requirements (i.e. perform a trade study).

So the statement that a good speaker is a good speaker for all applications is simply not true in a lot of cases. Using an extreme example, a formula 1 design and a top fuel dragster design may both be top performers, but they each would be completely inadequate in the other's domain.

In the end, what each person values sonically is different and will result in different system choices. If a person's system meets or exceeds their requirements and brings them enjoyment, more power to 'em.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut
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post #642 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


So you're calling Jeff ridiculous then? It was his decision, so...

If Jeff had the option to run the speakers with subs, but chose instead not to do so, that would be a ridiculous decision IMO.

It is ridiculous to consider an evaluation of the sound of the JTR's without being crossed to a sub to be of any serious value. It's about as useful as judging a speaker without it's tweeter hooked up.
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post #643 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Please go back and read the GTG thread again, as we clearly pointed out that Jeff chose to run his speakers full range. In case folks don't know, Jeff is the designer, and he attended the GTG (he's an awesome dude). I was planning on playing his speakers first paired with dual LMS subs, but when the time came he say nah, just go ahead and run them full range. Had we all realized this would cause such controversy we would not have run them full range and I would have insisted they get paired with a sub or two. With that said, it was known to the attendees months ahead of time that we were going to run full range only. Jeff chose the speakers he wanted to bring to our full range speaker GTG, and he was cool enough to bring them. Before the GTG I spoke to him through PM and said I wouldn't mind making an exception for his stuff and run them with subs, but again, in the end he chose not to. In retrospect I should have paid more attention to the JTR speakers F3 and had Jeff bring a Cap or two to use with them, but he never mentioned it and we didn't think about it. The deck was not intentionally stacked against JTR, and I gave Jeff a chance to run his speakers first with the subs, but he decided to just go full range. Once again you need to get your facts straight.
Are you done complaining about this now, or should we start our own thread in which you can huff and puff some more?

You keep making this about JTR. As I explained, it is not about JTR. Obviously, I am not trying to defend something for a personal reason. I do not use any of the products that were in the GTG thread, nor do I sell any of the products used in the GTG thread. The problem was two fold, one using full noise to calibrate a speaker that has limited bandwidth and two, comparing an improperly calibrated limited bandwidth speaker against full bandwidth designs. It was not done intentionally, but it was stacking the deck. Mistakes happen all the time when doing these GTG's. No way to avoid mistakes happening, since time is limited. As I said in the GTG thread Jeff and Mark were true gentlemen.

I am not fighting with you or arguing with you. Later you did listen to the limited bandwidth speakers set up with subs and liked the other speakers better. That is your preference and nothing wrong with that. Heck, it might have even been my preference if I had been there. There were some very nice speakers at that GTG.

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post #644 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

If Jeff had the option to run the speakers with subs, but chose instead not to do so, that would be a ridiculous decision IMO.
It is ridiculous to consider an evaluation of the sound of the JTR's without being crossed to a sub to be of any serious value. It's about as useful as judging a speaker without it's tweeter hooked up.

Maybe he just did it for fun (in the spirit of the day). To me he seems like a "whatever let's give it a try" sort of person. Again, he thought it was a fun day and he enjoyed (and I'll quote him here) "listening to some great speakers". I think the owners of his products took more umbrage than he did regarding this and there is a lesson there ... so let's give it a rest. wink.gif

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post #645 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:23 AM
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RMK
I agree. After rereading posted reviews from that GTG(as I was directed to do)
Archaea review list on the Sounscape 10 is a prime example. He knew something was not right with what he heard so he elected to post nothing on his review list. That is why noone said anything to him. He chose the high road.
Then when I read reviews from others that heard the same flawed session talk about how wonderful what they heard was it seems that they had thier minds already made up. That fine but how could it be so obvious to him and a few others while some did not notice. That is just one of many reasons why some feel the deck was stacked.
This is a pointless post becuase those who know KNOW, while those who don't would rather be negative instead of simply saying nothing.
Audio is supposed to be fun not depressing but after rereading that GTG thread I am SAD.
I hope and wish everyone gets thier DREAM speakers.
I am done
Chris
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post #646 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

The whole point here that the subjective opinions should be taken in that light. It was an AV get together and is seems everyone had a good time. Hopefully it wasn't meant to be a critical listening session as there were many issues with setup and execution. It's nice that they were able to get so many products together and could give folks a taste of what they might sound like but it has hardly definitive as I assume it wasn't meant to be. The unusual mix of products made it difficult render a judgement regarding sound quality or capability but subjective comments were given.
My issue with this (and I was and called an attacker for stating my opinion) was that while most of the subjective comments were thoughtful and respectful, some were very disrespectful especially considering the specific conditions. I have talked to Jeff about this and because he is a "good guy", he really wasn't bothered by the rude and ignorant critiques of his speakers (my words, not his). That is what tarnished what was a fun day for a few hobbiests and industry professionals and any negative aftermath was mostly generated by the rudeness (thinly disguised as honesty) of those comments. IMHO

I can't argue with that. I also missed your post earlier, and I think you and I are simply suffering from a misunderstanding of posts here on the forums. Sometime's it is very hard to convey what you're thinking/really mean into typed sentences. How about you and I just start over and forget the misunderstandings, eh?
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

If Jeff had the option to run the speakers with subs, but chose instead not to do so, that would be a ridiculous decision IMO.
It is ridiculous to consider an evaluation of the sound of the JTR's without being crossed to a sub to be of any serious value. It's about as useful as judging a speaker without it's tweeter hooked up.

I disagree with that last part, but I see your point. First of all, someone else's opinion of a speaker should never be the bases of a purchasing decision. RMK is correct that the event was focused on having a good time; the rest was just a bonus. You need to listen to a speaker before you buy it. Period.

Concerning Jeff's decision, he's a good guy, and I invited him because I've always liked how he handles himself and his business, but he and I both knew his speakers were designed to be paired with a sub(s). He agreed to attend anyway, and it's because he simply that cool of a guy. Period. He probably knew he'd be at a disadvantage, and he came anyway. That says a lot about his character IMO. As mentioned in the GTG thread, I plan to pay his shop a visit for a proper audition, especially considering he has a new speaker.
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

You keep making this about JTR. As I explained, it is not about JTR. Obviously, I am not trying to defend something for a personal reason. I do not use any of the products that were in the GTG thread, nor do I sell any of the products used in the GTG thread. The problem was two fold, one using full noise to calibrate a speaker that has limited bandwidth and two, comparing an improperly calibrated limited bandwidth speaker against full bandwidth designs. It was not done intentionally, but it was stacking the deck. Mistakes happen all the time when doing these GTG's. No way to avoid mistakes happening, since time is limited. As I said in the GTG thread Jeff and Mark were true gentlemen.
I am not fighting with you or arguing with you. Later you did listen to the limited bandwidth speakers set up with subs and liked the other speakers better. That is your preference and nothing wrong with that. Heck, it might have even been my preference if I had been there. There were some very nice speakers at that GTG.

Thank you. I don't disagree with what you just said, and I regret Jeff's speakers being at a disadvantage. By the way, you were the one that brought up JTR, so... smile.gif Next time you should really attend - you can help ensure something like running the JTR's full range never happens again, or correct our level matching methods so the JTR's weren't louder than the rest. The more experience the better!
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Maybe he just did it for fun (in the spirit of the day). To me he seems like a "whatever let's give it a try" sort of person. Again, he thought it was a fun day and he enjoyed (and I'll quote him here) "listening to some great speakers". I think the owners of his products took more umbrage than he did regarding this and there is a lesson there ... so let's give it a rest. wink.gif

Exactly.
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RMK
Then when I read reviews from others that heard the same flawed session talk about how wonderful what they heard was it seems that they had thier minds already made up. That fine but how could it be so obvious to him and a few others while some did not notice. That is just one of many reasons why some feel the deck was stacked.
This is a pointless post becuase those who know KNOW, while those who don't would rather be negative instead of simply saying nothing.
Audio is supposed to be fun not depressing but after rereading that GTG thread I am SAD.
I hope and wish everyone gets thier DREAM speakers.
I am done
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To answer your question (bolded), it is because Jonathan sat on the floor directly in front of the left speaker (and remained there). He was 6-7 feet from the speaker. Being in such a unique position allowed him to A) hear flaws easier, and B) not hear what he was intended to because he wasn't sitting at ear level, far enough away and between the two speakers. Since the flaw just happened to occur only on the left-hand side (where he was sitting), he was able to pick it out easier. And then, of course, some people just don't know what distortion sounds like, so they likely never heard it at all. Not everyone is as experience as the next guy.

Shouldn't we take the GTG talk somewhere else? It really has nothing to do with the OP.

P.S. To quote Mark Seaton;
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These realities don't discount the value of comments from the GTG, but rather remind us how important context of a comparison is, and that no single comparison will be relevant for all, just as no single acoustic measurement will fully describe how a loudspeaker sounds.

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post #647 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:41 AM
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So the statement that a good speaker is a good speaker for all applications is simply not true in a lot of cases. Using an extreme example, a formula 1 design and a top fuel dragster design may both be top performers, but they each would be completely inadequate in the other's domain.

OMN,

Thank you very much for that post, it was an excellent run down and point of view. Plain and simple, Opinions are like armpits, everyone has them and sometimes they may stink. Also, I lop top fuel, so that analogy will be a good one for the memory banks smile.gif

I find it hard listening to a lot of this conversation due to the fact that I have heard a lot of great speakers on both "sides" of the isle and feel too strongly about how some benefit in areas that others don't. All too often when people post subjective opinions on here about how a pair of speakers sound, they don't go into enough detail and research to actually look into WHY they didn't think they sounded good. More often than not, it is due to the fact they were improperly integrated to the system i.e., crossover was set at a bad spot, phase/delay issues, placement problems with SBIR or comb filtering (this could be in the design at times too obviously), and all kinds of other issues that they immediately dismiss as the speaker is just not for them. In my theater design I have played with all different types of alignments, and speaker styles, so at some point, some day, I will be able to say, "I have had a pair of those before, this is how I thought they did compared to what you have." Knowledge is paramount and personal experience, while different between every single one of us here will inevitably play bias in our conversations hereafter, as long as AVS is around. This is "Science" forum and those like OldMovieNut that are posting some good informative reads help propel this conversation to new levels. Let's not make this about any personal vendetta's. Thanks dudes.


I see a WHOLE lot of good points being made here in this thread, and I have been here from pretty much the get-go, so I am glad there is still some good progress in the discussion!!

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post #648 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 09:51 AM
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Wow, OldMovieNut - your post was very good and informative. Thank you for that.

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post #649 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Wow, OldMovieNut - your post was very good and informative. Thank you for that.
I agree too or +1
Excellent informing post.
If I were clever I would have said that.
Thank you OMN
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post #650 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 11:19 AM
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By Nuance, " Next time you should really attend - you can help ensure something like running the JTR's full range never happens again, or correct our level matching methods so the JTR's weren't louder than the rest. The more experience the better!"

I would have loved to have been there. GTG's are a blast, not just for the equipment, but to meet the people that we talk to daily. Everybody needs to get out and listen to different designs. The more experience one has the better they are able to make a good choice for them.

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post #651 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 11:34 AM
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I can't argue with that. I also missed your post earlier, and I think you and I are simply suffering from a misunderstanding of posts here on the forums. Sometime's it is very hard to convey what you're thinking/really mean into typed sentences. How about you and I just start over and forget the misunderstandings, eh?

Done and I agree, life's too short ... smile.gif

The problem with being quoted is I'm forced to re-read the stuff I write and all the typos and grammatical errors jump out at me eek.gif. I want to be a better writer in my next life ... tongue.gif

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post #652 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post

What this tells me is that the typical compression driver will have poor spectral decay performance because of its high mass. A ribbon on the other hand is intrinsically low mass and will have far superior performance in this area:
http://www.alconsaudio.com/site/cinema/pro-ribbon-vs-compression-driver.html
The waterfall plot of the Raal RAAL 70-20XR (along with a good dome) is shown about half way into this document on its use in the Ascend Sierra Tower:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/Ascend%20Sierra%20Ribbon%20Tower.pdf
I could be wrong, but I believe spectral decay performance is a major factor why certain people prefer direct radiator designs vice HE designs.

Interesting. I have not considered this before. I suspect that in a typical room at the LP the advantage of shorter decay is probably moot. I guess I have some reading to do smile.gif
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Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post

So the statement that a good speaker is a good speaker for all applications is simply not true in a lot of cases. Using an extreme example, a formula 1 design and a top fuel dragster design may both be top performers, but they each would be completely inadequate in the other's domain.

I agree. That's why I find exceptions to this rule so valuable. I think objectively 4Pi is at least very competent with music, HT and even PA. And, subjectively, it is the best speaker I ever listened to in my room, regardless of the program material.
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post #653 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 11:58 AM
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Interesting. I have not considered this before. I suspect that in a typical room at the LP the advantage of shorter decay is probably moot. I guess I have some reading to do smile.gif.
I can't specifically tell you if the shorter decay is the reason, but the two tweeters used in the Ascend measurements, but I have heard both tweeters in the same room, and the RAAL tweeter definitely presents more detail, in a "typical" room.

No matter what room you are in, if you start with less decay, less decay reaches your ears.

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post #654 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post


No matter what room you are in, if you start with less decay, less decay reaches your ears.

This stands to reason. But if you were to measure spectral decay in room, you would probably find that 0.3 ms difference between the tweeter and the ribbon in Sierra Towers is insignificant compared to the influence of the room. So the explanation for the difference in sound may have to be found elsewhere.

But I maybe way wrong here. At least this is a measurable difference unlike the HOM explanation Geddes is pushing.
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post #655 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

This stands to reason. But if you were to measure spectral decay in room, you would probably find that 0.3 ms difference between the tweeter and the ribbon in Sierra Towers is insignificant compared to the influence of the room. So the explanation for the difference in sound may have to be found elsewhere.
But I maybe way wrong here. At least this is a measurable difference unlike the HOM explanation Geddes is pushing.
Maybe...but that lack of decay at the source also means that there is less for the room to interact with from the beginning.

Like I said, I don't know for sure, but tough to explain the perception of more detail otherwise.

I would also bet that in a room, the decay for higher frequencies of a tweeter are much less of issue(or maybe even non-existent) when compared to mids/bass.

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post #656 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Maybe...but that lack of decay at the source also means that there is less for the room to interact with from the beginning.
Like I said, I don't know for sure, but tough to explain the perception of more detail otherwise.
I would also bet that in a room, the decay for higher frequencies of a tweeter are much less of issue(or maybe even non-existent) when compared to mids/bass.

A very slight bump-up in response somewhere in the upper mids and/or highs can easily be interpreted as more detail. It doesn't even take a large change.
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post #657 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post


I would also bet that in a room, the decay for higher frequencies of a tweeter are much less of issue(or maybe even non-existent) when compared to mids/bass.

you maybe right. I have no first hand experience with this
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post #658 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

A very slight bump-up in response somewhere in the upper mids and/or highs can easily be interpreted as more detail. It doesn't even take a large change.
Understood. I am pretty sure this is not the case with the RAAL.

On this particular speaker, the midrange is very detailed with either tweeter....the highs are more detailed with the RAAL, and not quite as forward. The RAAL tweeter is quite interesting/remarkable.

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post #659 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

you maybe right. I have no first hand experience with this
and maybe I'm not....skepticism is good.

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post #660 of 675 Old 11-30-2012, 01:46 PM
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You buy a different one. Apparently you aren't familiar with the plethora of DSPs now available, and their number is hardly dwindling. But tired of seeing your chronic argumentative comments I am, so blocked you now are.
I didnt realize they were so plug and play. Blocking is one way to avoid your having to deal with subsequent research that essentially overturns the Klipsch paper that you seem to be fond of trotting out as somehow definitive. So much for science if it happens to disagree with personal notions.

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