HT: Has anyone ever moved from high sensitivity speakers BACK to low sensitivity? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 675 Old 06-02-2012, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

With all the comparisons being made in this thread, I'd like to point out that those fared well against the GedLee Abbey and Nathan, music and movies. Comparison done by someone who owns all three, and kept all three.

Wait.....did you just say the $395 SHO-10 compared well against the $3,000 GedLee for music?
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post #182 of 675 Old 06-02-2012, 08:35 AM
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ADTG, I can't post links or pictures, someone runs to the mods when I do. I'll PM the info with your permission.

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post #183 of 675 Old 06-02-2012, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Wait.....did you just say the $395 SHO-10 compared well against the $3,000 GedLee for music?

No surprise there. By the look of it they use an Eminence pro-sound woofer, probably the Delta 10, and when you limit the low frequency corner to 80Hz as they do you can get a very good result for very little cash.

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post #184 of 675 Old 06-02-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

ADTG, I can't post links or pictures, someone runs to the mods when I do. I'll PM the info with your permission.

Please do. I'd appreciate it.
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post #185 of 675 Old 06-02-2012, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post



See, now we're getting somewhere.. you sit 7 feet away and probably havent listened to a real high sensitivity compression driver design (as pointed out above, klipsch RF series doesnt really count, maybe the RF7 counts... maybe).

Did we ever find out if the Klipsch RF-7 counts?
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post #186 of 675 Old 06-03-2012, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Toole is partial to speakers flat far off axis, which precludes constant directivity designs from his theories. Much has changed since then. For instance, I don't believe this was taken into consideration. It's a game changer.

http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf

thank you for the Pi white paper link. a lot of good info for a newb like me.

their arguments against symmetrical horns seems very convincing. I am curious where CHT's current 90x90 horn falls in this respect.
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post #187 of 675 Old 06-04-2012, 07:00 PM
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It is just a design choice that Parham has made. The GedLee oblate spheroids are 90 degree waveguides, I believe. Here is Geddes' white paper.

http://gedlee.com/downloads/directivity.pdf

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post #188 of 675 Old 06-04-2012, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

Did we ever find out if the Klipsch RF-7 counts?

Depends on the efficiency of the 8" woofers
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post #189 of 675 Old 06-04-2012, 08:27 PM
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I have had many good lower sensitivity speakers but tend to prefer CBT arrays because I can get both excellent sound quality and high output plus large dynamic capability. My earlier experience with straight (conventional arrays) always had me going back to arrays because of the lack of compression. CBT's sacrifice some of the output of a straight array but offer better vertical coverage which surpasses anything else in arrays or conventional designs (a big advantage for theaters with tiered seating).

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post #190 of 675 Old 06-07-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

It is just a design choice that Parham has made. The GedLee oblate spheroids are 90 degree waveguides, I believe.
you are absolutely right, all of his speakers use 90 degree waveguides.
I just got a word that my set of SHO-10s is delivered. smile.gif
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post #191 of 675 Old 06-07-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

all of his speakers use 90 degree waveguides.
The woofer also has a uniform radiation pattern, so Earl's thought is why have the HF and LF sections different? In truth it doesn't matter that much on the vertical plane, whereas having similar horizontal dispersion at the crossover frequency is. You can get that result with both HF section types.

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post #192 of 675 Old 06-07-2012, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The woofer also has a uniform radiation pattern, so Earl's thought is why have the HF and LF sections different? In truth it doesn't matter that much on the vertical plane, whereas having similar horizontal dispersion at the crossover frequency is. You can get that result with both HF section types.
So is thetre any validity to Pi's narrow front lobe in symmetrical horns reasoning?
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post #193 of 675 Old 06-07-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post


I'll keep my 104 dB Klipschorns, thanks. They do music very well.

Ditto on my 1979 Klipsch Cornwalls(real wood cabinets) we purchased new. 102bd 1watt/1 meter. The Heritage Series Klipsch sound a lot

different from the newer towers they sell now.

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post #194 of 675 Old 06-07-2012, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

So is thetre any validity to Pi's narrow front lobe in symmetrical horns reasoning?
Maybe, I lost interest by the end of page 1. Brevity is not only the soul of wit, it also keeps your audience awake.

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post #195 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Maybe, I lost interest by the end of page 1. Brevity is not only the soul of wit, it also keeps your audience awake.

biggrin.gif

here is the relevant page

700

there is also a video on their site about it.

http://www.pispeakers.com/misc/Vertical_Nulls.wmv
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post #196 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

biggrin.gif
here is the relevant page...there is also a video on their site about it.
IMO much ado about not so much. Wayne and Earl both stand foursquare behind the type of horn that they sell, surprise surprise. Should they both show up here to debate their positions it would go on for days, if not weeks. rolleyes.gif

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post #197 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

IMO much ado about not so much. Wayne and Earl both stand foursquare behind the type of horn that they sell, surprise surprise. Should they both show up here to debate their positions it would go on for days, if not weeks. rolleyes.gif

in my situation, and I suspect this is fairly typical, vertical directivity is not that important because my speakers are on-axis in vertical plane.

this maybe a valid consideration for side surrounds however
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post #198 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

in my situation, and I suspect this is fairly typical, vertical directivity is not that important because my speakers are on-axis in vertical plane.
this maybe a valid consideration for side surrounds however
There are lies, there are damnable lies, and there are statistics. In this case substitute 'charts' for 'statistics'. The lobing shown on that chart is at a certain unspecified distance. What it doesn't show is vertical polar response at a typical listening distance, where said lobes would probably have disappeared. As with statistics charts can be configured to reinforce a particular point of view.

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post #199 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 07:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

in my situation, and I suspect this is fairly typical, vertical directivity is not that important because my speakers are on-axis in vertical plane.
this maybe a valid consideration for side surrounds however

So you don't hear all the floor and ceiling reflections (axes) and the total radiated power summation doesn't change the total tone, timbre, etc. perception at your ears?
Interesting room you must have. wink.gif
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post #200 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 08:18 PM
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So you don't hear all the floor and ceiling reflections (axes) and the total radiated power summation doesn't change the total tone, timbre, etc. perception at your ears?
Interesting room you must have. wink.gif

Oops, bad choise of words. Sure vertical directivity is very important. I meant to say that off-axis vertical nulls is not an issue in my case.
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post #201 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There are lies, there are damnable lies, and there are statistics. In this case substitute 'charts' for 'statistics'. The lobing shown on that chart is at a certain unspecified distance. What it doesn't show is vertical polar response at a typical listening distance, where said lobes would probably have disappeared. As with statistics charts can be configured to reinforce a particular point of view.

Good point
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post #202 of 675 Old 06-08-2012, 08:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Oops, bad choise of words. Sure vertical directivity is very important.
I would say "not as important" (as horz, which is why we have ears on side of head, not top/bottom smile.gif)....which is not the same as "not important".wink.gif
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I meant to say that off-axis vertical nulls is not an issue in my case.
Point source guy or vertical line type?

cheers,

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post #203 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 01:45 AM
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The 1812s?? Bipolar (asymmetric/variable) point sources. Dipole (asymmetric/variable) bass only.

And ya better start saving yer pennies.

That's a lot of pennies. Dug around a bit, looks like the 1812 Overture has evolved since the CapFest show.

The HE Monitor looks pretty interesting. Is this a high efficiency design?

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post #204 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

you are absolutely right, all of his speakers use 90 degree waveguides.
I just got a word that my set of SHO-10s is delivered. smile.gif

Get some sturdy stands, and enjoy!

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post #205 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

IMO much ado about not so much. Wayne and Earl both stand foursquare behind the type of horn that they sell, surprise surprise. Should they both show up here to debate their positions it would go on for days, if not weeks. rolleyes.gif

Or months, years! This thread would blow up.

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post #206 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 07:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

That's a lot of pennies. Dug around a bit, looks like the 1812 Overture has evolved since the CapFest show.
The HE Monitor looks pretty interesting. Is this a high efficiency design?
The 1812 will evolve further..and yes, not inexpensive. The HEMon is around 92db and was mainly a test bed for the HTMon, which is closer to a "production" item and will allow a horizontal (9" H) center.
The HET1 should be posted late this week and might be the optimal option from the lineup, if you need HE/high SPL capability for HT, etc. and can accommodate a vertical center

cheers,

AJ
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post #207 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 07:46 AM
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Just to clarify for those that did not read the thread. The two High sensitivity speakers in the referenced thread were JTR T12's and Seaton Sound Catalysts. These two speakers are designed to be crossed to subs in the 60hz to 80hz range. They were run full range 2-channel, no subs and were compared with traditional 2-channel speakers.

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Incorrect. The Seaton Catlaysts had the bottoms "dropped out" and were tuned to 20hz. They had some serious low end capabilities. Also, the designer of the JTR's told me to not bother crossing them to subwoofers. All manufacturers that attended were aware we'd be running full range. I'm very appreciative that they attended, but lets not pretend we intentionally gave them an unfair advantage, because we didn't. Later that day we tried to connect the JTR's to the 2-channel preamp with subwoofers, and they were 12dB more sensitive than the GTG host's LMS5400 Ultra subwoofers. Since 2-channel preamps don't typically have level adjustments like receivers do, it made using the JTR's for a dedicated 2.2 channels setup completely impossible with those subwoofers and most traditional 2 or 2.1 channel music preamps. By the way, I intentionally left out which brands they were, as to not start a pi$$ing match. At least I can say you started it instead of me.



Since the topic of reference levels always seems to conincide with high-efficient/high-sensitive designs, here is what Floyd Toole says in his book regarding reference levels...He said (page 513, chapter 22):

"In rooms about 4000 cubic feet and under, well-designed conventional cone-dome loudspeakers should have no trouble achieving the required sound levels. In larger rooms, one must be more selective because some loudspeakers may exhibit distress or transducer failure. However, there are also some highly refined designs that can deliver substantial amounts of sound."


He then goes on to say:

"In very large rooms and in rooms where the customer feels a need for high sound levels much of the time, horn-loaded speakers are recommended."


Regarding reference levels he states this:

"With large woofers and compression-driver horns, the low distortion and an absence of power compression can lead to volume settings that put one's hearing at risk and it still does not sound loud." Toole also states that most people find reference levels "to be a bit loud - in both cinemas and their homes."


Anyway, it's just something to think about.

I am at a loss here, exactly what part of what I said is incorrect? I stated the two high sensitivity speakers that were used, correct. I stated that they are designed to be used with subs, correct. I stated that they were run full range, correct. I stated that they were compared to traditional 2 channel speakers, correct. I did not pass any judgement or make any comments. I left that for those that are interested or wanted the specifics, to read the thread. Yes the Seaton Cat, was set up using the DSP amp to provide a much lower f3, but that is not how that speaker was designed (optimized) to be run.

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post #208 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

IMO much ado about not so much. Wayne and Earl both stand foursquare behind the type of horn that they sell, surprise surprise. Should they both show up here to debate their positions it would go on for days, if not weeks. rolleyes.gif

It did. smile.gif There is an old thread on here from a few years ago where they went back and forth.

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post #209 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 08:54 AM
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You can't assume you hear the same as everyone else, what one person thinks is loud will be totally different from another person. So get what you like, but make sure you take a listen to a bunch of different speakers of different types. This will also change as your hearing changes.
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post #210 of 675 Old 06-09-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post


Point source guy or vertical line type?
cheers,
AJ

if you are asking about my personal preference, I have to admit that I lack experience to form an opinion in this regard.
SHO-10s are first CD speakers that I have in my listening room and they are not even broken in yet.
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