Why pay $5000+ for speakers? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

The RAALtarboys. They're a singing troupe.
cheers,
AJ

I love my Raal tweets I have a pair of Vapor Audio Cirrus stand mounts. I don't understand why you feel the need to diss a very good tweeter? If you don't like the sound of a Raal tweeter thats fine but your opinion is just that, another opinion no better than mine or any of use "Raal tarboys" If you don't have patience for room/system tweaking maybe a high resolution speaker is not the way to go anyway, Just plunking down $5k or more for speakers doesn't guarantee great sound, if they rest of system and especially the room are not up to the task. cool.gif
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post #272 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 09:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

If you don't have patience for room/system tweaking maybe a high resolution speaker is not the way to go anyway, Just plunking down $5k or more for speakers doesn't guarantee great sound, if they rest of system and especially the room are not up to the task. cool.gif

Plunking down $5k sure beats plastering your walls with sound panels. tongue.gif

Vaya con Audyssey mi vida loca, MultiEQ XT or XT32.

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post #273 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassWolf View Post

Wal-Mart, Levi's outlet stores, etc.. you can easily buy jeans in the US for about $20-40/pair. I can't imagine paying $100 for any pair of pants that isn't a part of a nice business suit. I have no idea how women can afford to dress themselves honestly, looking at what they pay for clothes. We guys have it easy. I wear Dockers, Levi's, etc.. and never paid three figures for a pair of any of them. Not even the Banana Republic stuff..

I guess it depends on a number of factors. This tangent reminds me a bit of a scene in the TV show Friday Night Lights, where two characters (Tim Riggins and Jason Street) fly up to NYC from rural Texas, and ask a guy where he bought his suit. The guy tells them "Paul Stuart," a decent upper-midrange men's haberdasher, maybe on average a half-step above Brooks Brothers or J. Press in quality. So they head down Madison to PS. They admire a suit there, but then run out when they see the price tag. Which was pretty reasonable, from what I remember.

Maybe I'm a snob, but I wouldn't buy anything from Banana except for boxers and socks. Banana used to have reasonably serviceable shirts - not something one would mistake for a Truzzi, Finamore, or Charvet, but decent enough if one's not doing anyone important that day. However, sometime last decade they stopped using proper shell buttons and moved to plastic. I don't wear petrochemicals. While I don't recall anything about their jeans - I have no experience with them - their trousers were never that good in materials or workmanship, though some of their cuts are serviceable. I prefer Incotex for trousers for the most part, either under their own brand, or made by them for Zegna, Luciano Barbera, or other "designers." (It's pretty easy to spot a pair of rebadged Incos.) There are plenty of other good makers, but Incotex seem to work well for me and their prices aren't out of line.

As for women, they can afford to dress the way they do because women's clothes don't need to be (and usually aren't) particularly high in quality of fabrics or tailoring due to turnover in trends. Durability in most women's clothes is really no virtue, because women don't keep things for long. So fashionable women's clothes are comparatively cheap, even when one factors in the marketing campaigns that make up most of their "production" costs.

Men's clothes, by contrast, can often last near forever if they're well made to start, though one does pay for quality. Look at Lapo Elkann, for instance. He's considered one of the most stylish men in the world. Yet most of his tailored clothing is stuff he inherited from his grandfather, Fiat magnate Gianni Agnelli! Probably the oldest cloth thing in my wardrobe is my raincoat. My grandfather bought it at Harrod's over a half-century ago, and wore it for 30+ years when it rained. Now, would a new Burberry raincoat last as long? Maybe not, because they unfortunately transformed into a "fashion" brand sometime in the late 1990s, with the step-down in quality that comes inevitably comes with such a repositioning. But surely there's a current-day equivalent.

True, men today* aren't by-and-large trained to understand the difference between clothing well crafted, and clothing merely advertised in the Esquire Black Book or other such "authorities." So they settle for the likes of Armani or Prada (or, if they're rich, Kiton, who make great ties but whose tailored clothing is possibly the biggest rip-off in menswear) because they don't know how find something decent. Just as "audiophiles" don't generally know what music should sound like, so they settle for crappy loudspeakers (often very expensive, but still crappy) with midrange colorations due to basic geometrical flaws (e.g. a 7" mid-woofer mated to a 1" dome tweeter flushed into the baffle, or one of those stupid Raal toys with a large midwoofer.), rather than seeking out well-designed speakers to start with, regardless of price. And when they're unhappy, some con-man audio parts dealer convinces them that a new hunk of wire will make all the difference...

*Not just American men, mind. It's a global thing.

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post #274 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 10:05 AM
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I have the Phil3 w/ RAAL 10D tweeters. They sound great to me w/o any kind of acoustic panels.
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post #275 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Plunking down $5k sure beats plastering your walls with sound panels. tongue.gif
Vaya con Audyssey mi vida loca, MultiEQ XT or XT32.
biggrin.gif

Treating the first reflection points works for me. I have made a pair of DIY absorption panels that I liked with my other speakers. Now, I am using a type of diffusion, DIY room lenses. As long as the room is not to live and the ceilings are not very low, as in a basement with suspended ceiling, nice results are easier to achieve. But I only have a two channel music system. My room is a tad too live though, I might try some plants in the corners to reduce any slap echo. I don't want my room to look like a recording studio. smile.gif
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post #276 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 10:45 AM
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OKay DS-21, you don't like the idea of midwoofer/Raal speakers, but that is just your opinion no better than mine or anybody elses. Not all "audiophiles" are idiots. This hobby is personal, what floats your boat might sink mine and vis versa. Enjoy your system, I am sure you do so that is great! But you guys who bash certain designs don't make sense to me. It's sorta funny.

Can you give me some examples of well designed loudspeakers? I'd like to try a pair and maybe I will know what you are hearing or talking about that is "right" compared to my Raal toys. Just to add I owned a few Bose speakers in my younger years, NHT 2.9 and for ten years I owned a pair of Odyssey Audio Lorelei, these are also a two way design but floorstanding model with scanspeak midwoofer and scanspeak dome tweeter. Very nice speakers, to me.
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post #277 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

OKay DS-21, you don't like the idea of midwoofer/Raal speakers, but that is just your opinion no better than mine or anybody elses. Not all "audiophiles" are idiots. This hobby is personal, what floats your boat might sink mine and vis versa. Enjoy your system, I am sure you do so that is great! But you guys who bash certain designs don't make sense to me. Its sorta funny
Can you give me some examples of well designed loudspeakers? I'd like to try a pair and maybe I will know what you are hearing or talking about that is "right" compared to my Raal toys.

I don't think it's just the drivers. The XO is just as important, if not more important.

IMO based on my Salon2, KEF 201/2, Orion3, Phil3, and the B&W 802D I'm planning on buying, I think the RAAL can be just as good as any tweeter out there.
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post #278 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 11:15 AM
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levis 514s work just fine for me.

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post #279 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

levis 514s work just fine for me.

All Levis are nice IMHO, but the 505s are the best!
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post #280 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

All Levis are nice IMHO, but the 505s are the best!
Do you have measurement graphs to back that up?????

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post #281 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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Okay, ya got me. I'm looking for speakers named "Levi 505."

D'oh!

eek.gif

(Yes, sometimes I have trouble keeping up.....why?)

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post #282 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 11:46 AM
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Do you have measurement graphs to back that up?????
biggrin.gif

No graphs, but I know all my 505's are well within 1 percent accurate leg lengths, My friend once told me that a pair of his 514's had one pants leg at least 5 percent longer than the other. eek.gif Plus, the 505's give the users main unit more room to breath. IMHO.
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post #283 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 11:59 AM
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I have no idea what DS-21 is talking about with clothes. Never owned a suit until I had to look for a job last year. Just a Levis and Academy shirt dude. :-)
Niow I will spend some serious money on my hobby items. Clothes just don't rank as important to me. Of course my job gets me really dirty.
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post #284 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Do you have measurement graphs to back that up?????
biggrin.gif

Yeah, my jeans off-axis looks damn good. biggrin.gif

Cost does NOT equate to performance. biggrin.gif
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post #285 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 12:03 PM
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Pictures!!! We need pictures. biggrin.gif
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post #286 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 12:05 PM
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Okay, who the hell derailed this thread? What's next? Shoes and man purses? eek.gifbiggrin.gif

Facial creams? eek.gif
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post #287 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 12:06 PM
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I love how a speaker debate turned into a clothing debate...
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post #288 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 12:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I love my Raal tweets I have a pair of Vapor Audio Cirrus stand mounts.
Godd for you. I don't find it particularly healthy to love inanimate objects, especially something like a "tweeter", but to each there own. This hobby attracts all types.
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I don't understand why you feel the need to diss a very good tweeter?
I see. So my jab in jest at the RAALtarboy troupe was actually an insult to the inanimate tweeter? Guess logic isn't your forte. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

If you don't like the sound of a Raal tweeter thats fine
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I heard these a CapFest. Well balanced and smooth sound from my rather brief exposure.
cheers,
AJ
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1348949/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy#post_20729523
Hmmm... wink.gif.
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

If you don't have patience for room/system tweaking maybe a high resolution speaker is not the way to go anyway, Just plunking down $5k or more for speakers doesn't guarantee great sound, if they rest of system and especially the room are not up to the task. cool.gif
Don't forget if one has no knowledge of acoustics and general technical illiteracy, plunking down $X doesn't guarantee great sound either! smile.gif
(you know, like putting a completely uncontrolled directional messiah tweeter design in an acoustically small room, getting crappy sound, blaming the room, then proceeding to stick bandaids and gauze everywhere...to "fix" things tongue.gif ).

cheers,

AJ
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post #289 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

I love how a speaker debate turned into a clothing debate...

Just so the thread isn't flooded with Lee and Wrangler fanboys, We all like Levis best. It all started with DS-21's clothing analogy, and I think he means men are basically clueless about speakers and pants?
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post #290 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Just so the thread isn't flooded with Lee and Wrangler fanboys, We all like Levis best. It all started with DS-21's clothing analogy, and I think he means men are basically clueless about speakers and pants?

I don't care how my jeans measure on-axis and off-axis as long as the fit & feel is great. biggrin.gif
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post #291 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

OKay DS-21, you don't like the idea of midwoofer/Raal speakers, but that is just your opinion no better than mine or anybody else's.

Well, to be more precise my opinion is that speakers with objectively poor performance, in this case as an abrupt expansion of the loudspeaker's pattern at the bottom of the tweeter's passband, are poor loudspeakers.

It doesn't matter to me if the tweeter that is a ribbon, an electrostatic panel, a dome, a cone, a compression driver, a planar, a piezo, etc. Devices of all those types, can be made to work just fine by a skillful designer.
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Can you give me some examples of well designed loudspeakers? I'd like to try a pair and maybe I will know what you are hearing or talking about that is "right" compared to my Raal toys.

Limiting to speakers sold by audio parts dealers, here are some examples of well designed speakers, in random order: Gradient Revolution, KEF Reference (all), KEF Q-series (especially the 5" Uni-Q ones; the Q900 needs a little more crossover work to be elite), Revel Ultima xxx/2, JBL PT800 (aka Revel Ultima Gem, more or less), Tannoy System 12 DMT II, Tannoy System 10 DMT II, Tannoy Glenair 10, any of the Snells with David Smith's "expanding array" MTM, Quad ESL-63 (especially with Gradient dipole sub/stand). In the small speaker with limited output category, NHT Absolute Zero, KEF KHT3005SE set, and the little Gallo with two small midranges in balls vertically flanking a piezo tweeter (don't remember the name).

Of the ones you named from your past, the NHT 2.9 is the best of them. While its tweeter isn't on a waveguide, it has a small midrange and is well-chosen crossover points, as one can see from the horizontal off-axis measurement from Stereophile

N29fig5.jpg

This is a little flare at the bottom of the tweeter's passband, but not much compared to most speakers with tweeters flushed into the baffle. I suspect that a modern-day 3.3/2/9 would likely use a neo-magnet tweeter of the sort that was largely unavailable when the 3.3 was designed, allowing the tweeter to be closer to closer to the midrange.

After the 2,9, I'd take the Bose probably (!), followed by the Odyssey and Vapor speakers (both of those have the same flaw).
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Okay, who the hell derailed this thread? What's next? Shoes and man purses?:

Some men are happy with Bass Weejuns, others prefer JM Weston 180s. smile.gif
(No Weejuns here, but Weston 180's in chestnut and black calf, and in dark brown suede)

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post #292 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Godd for you. I don't find it particularly healthy to love inanimate objects, especially something like a "tweeter", but to each there own. This hobby attracts all types.
I see. So my jab in jest at the RAALtarboy troupe was actually an insult to the inanimate tweeter? Guess logic isn't your forte. smile.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1348949/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy#post_20729523
Hmmm... wink.gif.
Don't forget if one has no knowledge of acoustics and general technical illiteracy, plunking down $X doesn't guarantee great sound either! smile.gif
(you know, like putting a completely uncontrolled directional messiah tweeter design in an acoustically small room, getting crappy sound, blaming the room, then proceeding to stick bandaids and gauze everywhere...to "fix" things tongue.gif ).
cheers,
AJ

Okay I scratch "I love my Raal tweet" and instead I love listening to music with my speakers that use Raal tweeters. I get the idea that you are saying anyone who buys a speaker with that tweeter made a bad choice, that is the reason I commented. All types, you also like to judge people by a few posts on a website? Too each his own. Any speaker can benefit from room treatments. Your speakers are interesting to me to, but I don't think I would bother trying a pair now. Good luck with your speaker business, read good feedback from users of your monitors.
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post #293 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 01:22 PM
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Thanks DS-21 for the technical info and the recommendations of some other models. To be honest the 2.9's were pretty good but they were too bright for my tastes. I am sure you got this before, but I usually listen with my ears and the graph doesn't meen much to me. The Bose were not nothing I would reccommend to an audiophile with some experience.
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post #294 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 01:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Okay I scratch "I love my Raal tweet" and instead I love listening to music with my speakers that use Raal tweeters.
Ok, that makes more sense. Sort of like "good" instead of "godd".
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I get the idea that you are saying anyone who buys a speaker with that tweeter made a bad choice, that is the reason I commented.
Well, you didn't get that idea from what I actually stated in my posts and if you did, then perhaps you should re-read, perhaps a bit slower?
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you also like to judge people by a few post on a website?
Umm, yeah. Could you suggest a better way to judge people on a website other than their posts? smile.gif
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Too each is own. Any speaker can benefit from room treatments
That would depend greatly on how you define "benefit", as opposed to say, the dictionary definition.
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Your speakers are interesting to me to. But I don't think I would bother trying a pair now.
They aren't for those who believe any speaker can benefit from room treatments. We are in mutual agreement.
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Good luck with your speaker business, read good feedback from users of your monitors.
Thanks. Sincerely.

cheers,

AJ
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post #295 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 01:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I am sure you got this before, but I usually listen with my ears and the graph doesn't meen much to me.
Yes, I'm sure if an audiologist showed you the graphical results of your hearing tests, you would dismiss them as meaningless. To you. smile.gif

cheers,

AJ
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post #296 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 01:44 PM
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Yes, I'm sure if an audiologist showed you the graphical results of your hearing tests, you would dismiss them as meaningless. To you. smile.gif
cheers,
AJ

Jeesh, AJ your an expert debater too, I give up. Again good luck with your business.
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post #297 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 01:55 PM
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For the guys who don't measure and just listen how do you know if the speakers are what you like or a big peak or null within a certain range? How do you know if all the speakers were flattened to an equal response or if the bad speaker was changed to the same response might sound as good? The answer is unless you measure you don't. You just say things like it just sounds better to me, but why? It may not be the Raal tweeter after all that you like. I love to do blind tests on guys because most of my friends always make up their minds before they even listen. Oh look, that is a horn, it won't sound good. Then I move the screen and oh crap, you liked the horn speaker.
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post #298 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Jeesh, AJ your an expert debater too
A master debater?
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Again good luck with your business.
Again, thanks and good luck also.

cheers,

AJ
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post #299 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

My wife actually buys most of my clothes. My jeans are Abercrombie, Banana Republic, Express, Gap. But I tell my wife to only buy when they are around $20-30, which means 75-80% off.

Maybe it's just how we shop, too? I also only buy when things are on sale, and I have a BR card, etc.. so I get discounts for that and what not.. so yeah I don't buy their stuff at full price, but then I'm in my 40s. I don't feel the need to impress anyone with expensive clothes anymore. I wear nice linen shirts from BR or Bass, etc.. and khakis or jeans or dockers. I guess "style" isn't as important to me, when I have other things to spend money on that I enjoy, instead of trying to impress others LOL

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post #300 of 438 Old 07-23-2012, 02:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I love to do blind tests on guys because most of my friends always make up their minds before they even listen.

Not sure where you guys are going with this but how do you watch your home theater system? I'm in it for the overall experience, not for double-blind, controlled listening tests.

I think all audiophiles should be made to watch their movies with three shots of whiskey in them and a bag of popcorn in their lap. I want you to watch "A Long Kiss Good Night" and after watching Gina Davis, tell me that you care a wit about what the speakers sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWr1FkT2B5w

Now, if one cares about the sound, they're not watching the movie although this is probably the best sound-tracked movie ever.

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