Why pay $5000+ for speakers? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 438 Old 07-25-2012, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

6600, when I built those the 6640 didn't exist.

That may be why u don't love them. . id be interested in your thoughts on the same speaker with a piston dome. the 6640 is pretty pricey but i suspect it is flat out a better tweeter than the 6600.
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post #362 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

You're soooo right. But 3rd party hearsay anecdotes from "a guy in Atlanta" sure does! smile.gif
Man, who would have thought mountains of scientifically verifiable, testable and repeatable evidence by dozens of accredited scientists compiled in fully peer reviewable form, by Dr Toole, Dr Olive, Dr Geddes et al....would be overturned by "a guy in Atlanta said..."
Ummm, because you do?? That statistical sampling size of one is pretty damning evidence right there....
Well...you do. As if there is some shred of scientific data to support a direct correlation between TD and the RAALs "superiority" (or any other speaker for that matter) per anecdotal landslide. Also as if both TD and FR aren't derived from the very same IR, just 2 different views of it....rolleyes.gif
No, it can't be that extraordinarily wide horizontal FR at HF and radiated sound power laterally enhancing spaciousness etc. Why? Because Ryans "experience" says otherwise.
Where did you come up with such an inspirational brilliant idea??? Wow, a waveguide ring tweeter above a dipole W22, man that sounds crazy innovative! They look really nice too Ryan:

Although they don't really look red and that pic seems to be dated 2004....confused.gif
I agree and think you should definitely continue with those wildly uncontrolled directivity but great time domain view of the impulse speakers!
How you been Ryan?biggrin.gif
Missed you at LSAF. Whats the next show? Big room I hope? tongue.gif
cheers,
AJ
:facepalm: there is typically a big gap between the contents of those papers and what you are often peddling. But why should anyone be reasonable - I am right and anyone in disagreement is clueless.

and BTW equivalence of TD and FR only applies to steady state response of LTI systems.
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post #363 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 04:24 AM
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What are some of the big gaps in the papers vs. what AJ is peddling?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #364 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 05:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by toslat View Post

But why should anyone be reasonable - I am right and anyone in disagreement is clueless.

LOL!

eek.gif

Now that's funny.

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and BTW equivalence of TD and FR only applies to steady state response of LTI systems.

And if you don't get this PDQ you're pretty much SOL.

biggrin.gif
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post #365 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by TurboFC3S View Post

Exactly ...
That's incredibly dismissive. This particular customer had a house full of 'high end' speakers, the Kef's were just one of many, which have all since been sold or put into storage. Throwing out bias is just a snarky way of saying his opinion is wrong.

Not wrong opinion. No right or wrong. Just an opinion. All opinions have bias. We are not robots. We have bias. The purpose of double-blinded studies with significant numbers of subjects is to remove this human inherent bias. We all have bias. We are only humans.

I own Salon2, KEF 201/2, Orion3, Philharmonic3, and I'm expecting delivery of B&W 802D this afternoon. Does that mean I have no bias? I can try my best to eliminate all bias. But I'm only human. Bias is inevitable. We can only attempt to reduce bias via proper double-blinded studies.
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post #366 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 06:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

We can only attempt to reduce bias via proper double-blinded studies.

Never let a dose of reality ruin a good party.

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.....and I'm expecting delivery of B&W 802D this afternoon.

eek.gif

Details.

smile.gif
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post #367 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Never let a dose of reality ruin a good party.
eek.gif
Details.
smile.gif

I agree completely. I'm not a robot. Bias is a part of my pharmacology, physiology, biology, and chemistry. I will bring bias to the party. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Unlike some people, I just don't deny it. biggrin.gif

Oh, yeah, I'm expecting delivery of new pair of B&W 802D Rosenut from local B&W dealer.

Along with my other so-called "high-end" speakers, I will become officially unbiased - incapable of being biased - even when I'm biased - it's kind of like a force field or something. eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #368 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What are some of the big gaps in the papers vs. what AJ is peddling?
He tends to generalize the results of the papers beyond their applicability. Example:
Paper: Of all the women I have dated, the red head was the hottest
AJ: Any lady that is not a red head is ugly.
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Oh, yeah, I'm expecting delivery of new pair of B&W 802D Rosenut from local B&W dealer.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm! Rosenut. smile.gif

Quote:
Along with my other so-called "high-end" speakers, I will become officially unbiased - incapable of being biased - even when I'm biased - it's kind of like a force field or something. eek.gifbiggrin.gif

Yeah baby! I'm as biased as the day is long and your point? biggrin.gif

And after you've had a few days to play, down in the alleyways where the rest of us play, I/we want to hear, so we can vicariously live though your experiences with your "B&W 802D."

Was it worth it? Make us drool. Let us know why we want a home theater (7.1) set of B&W 802D's.

biggrin.gif
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post #370 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Not wrong opinion. No right or wrong. Just an opinion. All opinions have bias.

+1
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Was it worth it? Make us drool. Let us know why we want a home theater (7.1) set of B&W 802D's.

He already knows the 802Ds won't be as good as the rest of his speakers, except maybe the P362s.

He's just getting them for the looks.
Quote:
He tends to generalize the results of the papers beyond their applicability. Example:
Paper: Of all the women I have dated, the red head was the hottest
AJ: Any lady that is not a red head is ugly.

Care to provide a concrete example instead of a straw-man?
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post #371 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 09:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

He's just getting them for the looks.

As most of us wish we could acquire our spouse, house and car. tongue.gif

Most of us don't buy a house because it's trashy but functional and serves it's purpose; a place to put a refrigerator and a pillow.

tongue.gif

Our speakers are beautiful and that's half the reason I bought them. Why would I want to buy crappy looking speakers that sound great when I can have both; cool looking speakers that for a price, sound great?

-
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post #372 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Mmmmmmmmmmmm! Rosenut. smile.gif

Yeah baby! I'm as biased as the day is long and your point? biggrin.gif
And after you've had a few days to play, down in the alleyways where the rest of us play, I/we want to hear, so we can vicariously live though your experiences with your "B&W 802D."
Was it worth it? Make us drool. Let us know why we want a home theater (7.1) set of B&W 802D's.
biggrin.gif

I will give my honest impression of the 802D.

We all know how the speakers sound at the dealer may be quite different than in our house.

The dealer's room is about the same size as my room horizontally (~ 15' x 17'), but my room is 15ft tall and the dealer room is 10ft tall.

About 4 more hours and counting. biggrin.gif
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post #373 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 09:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I will give my honest impression of the 802D.

Ooooooo, honest impressions. The bane of dreams. tongue.gif

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About 4 more hours and counting. biggrin.gif

I hate this part. And then you have to un-box, maybe make cables, carry in from the garage, put in-place and then run Audyssey to EQ the room. cool.gif

"Are we there yet?"

biggrin.gif
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post #374 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I agree completely. I'm not a robot. Bias is a part of my pharmacology, physiology, biology, and chemistry. I will bring bias to the party. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
Unlike some people, I just don't deny it. biggrin.gif
Oh, yeah, I'm expecting delivery of new pair of B&W 802D Rosenut from local B&W dealer.
Along with my other so-called "high-end" speakers, I will become officially unbiased - incapable of being biased - even when I'm biased - it's kind of like a force field or something. eek.gifbiggrin.gif

Sell em all get Bose man! Just kidding. biggrin.gif I need to own a pair of speakers for a while till I can tweak the room, speaker placement and even sometimes a better high resolution speaker will reveal weaknesses of other gear. For example, a mass market power amp or HT receiver may not work real well with a high resolution monitor speaker, or a better amp may change your impression of the high resolution monitor. Even AC power tweaks can improve the system and change your impression of a speaker system. Building a great (or good) system is not always easy , it is a game of patience, keeping an open mind, tweaking, and sometimes a particular speaker just won't satisfy the listener no matter how much patience is applied, even if five of your buddies say they are the cats meow, this is the personal part of the hobbie. One guy loves single full range driver and SET tube amp, the next loves huge low efficiency multi way and 1000 watt amp systems etc. who is right? Both of them! Good luck with your speaker adventure, hope you find one that really pleases you. smile.gif

P.S. Don't anyone get mad just one dumb audiophiles opinion, but for HT set-up I would not spend nearly $5k for speakers even all 5 or 6 or how many channels do you need? tongue.gif
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post #375 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by toslat View Post

AJ: Any lady that is not a red head is ugly.
You mean this isn't true ?? biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post


how many channels do you need? tongue.gif
Need... want... meh !

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post #376 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Why would I want to buy crappy looking speakers that sound great when I can have both; cool looking speakers that for a price, sound great?
-

I hear you.

SQ & aesthetics are equally important.

As far as aesthetics go, I just don't see any Internet Direct company being able to build the 802D body (20 beech layered curved cabinet, Marlan head, and Nautilus teardrop tweeter housing) without the use of some serious expensive machinery and extensive labor.

The cost of the 802D body alone is $9K/pr. The cheapest aftermarket diamond tweeter costs $2K each, so that brings the cost to 9 + 4 = $13K/pr. The midrange + dual woofers are say $300 each x 6 = $1,800-$2,000. That brings the cost to $15K/pr.

Now you have to design, test, measure, listen, build the crossovers, which takes some time and money. At least $1K for parts and LABOR?

Add profit of $1K.

Shipping cartons /boxes & actual freight shipping is another $1K. The shipping cartons for the 802D is about $600 (includes s/h).

So now you have $18,000.

Will it measure better than the stock 802D? Maybe.

Will it sound better? A matter of pure subjective opinion.
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post #377 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

P.S. Don't anyone get mad just one dumb audiophiles opinion, but for HT set-up I would not spend nearly $5k for speakers even all 5 or 6 or how many channels do you need? tongue.gif

I would but it's because I'm not a bass fisher kind-a guy. If I were, I'd drop $18k on a brand new, in box, bass fishing boat; just to say I did. The point, it's a hobby, just as is photography, alpine camping and bass fishing.
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post #378 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:18 AM
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I hate this part. And then you have to un-box, maybe make cables, carry in from the garage, put in-place and then run Audyssey to EQ the room. cool.gif
"Are we there yet?"
biggrin.gif

Direct mode for me, meaning no post processing of Room Correction, EQ, or DSP of any kind. Like the good old pure analog days. Just manually sound level match w/ SPL. Cables are ready for connection.

Hardest part is taking the 176lb each speakers out of their boxes. Each speaker has it's own "wheels" under the base, so pushing them into place should be even easier than pushing the 178lb Salon2 w/o wheels. biggrin.gif
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post #379 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:21 AM
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So, what's the question of this thread again?

Why pay more than $5K for speakers?

Why ask WHY ?eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #380 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I would but it's because I'm not a bass fisher kind-a guy. If I were, I'd drop $18k on a brand new, in box, bass fishing boat; just to say I did. The point, it's a hobby, just as is photography, alpine camping and bass fishing.

Exactly, and as long as you enjoy your hobbies and hopefully don't go broke in the process, that is all that matters.


Enjoy!
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post #381 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:24 AM
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I'd drop $18k on a brand new, in box, bass fishing boat; just to say I did. The point, it's a hobby, just as is photography, alpine camping and bass fishing.

I bet my $5K boat measures better than your $18K boat. tongue.gif
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post #382 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I bet my $5K boat measures better than your $18K boat. tongue.gif

I bet I can catch bigger fish out of my $800.00 10 foot long dingy with trolling motor. rolleyes.gif
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post #383 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

So, what's the question of this thread again?
Why pay more than $5K for speakers?
Why ask WHY ?eek.gifbiggrin.gif

I haven't thought about Bud Dry for a very long time. What a weird product.
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post #384 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 11:36 AM
 
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I bet I can catch bigger fish out of my $800.00 10 foot long dingy with trolling motor. rolleyes.gif

I bet you can but it's not about catching fish because it's about the fishing boat just like it's about the journey, not the destination. We have a two week road trip planned to go through Sturgis, MT by car and I can assure you, there's nothing in Sturgis worth two weeks in a car other than a beer. tongue.gif And yes, going to Sturgis in a car, just for a lousy cold beer, is worth the effort.

biggrin.gif

-
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post #385 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

I bet I can catch bigger fish out of my $800.00 10 foot long dingy with trolling motor. rolleyes.gif

well I can catch more fish with no boat by throwing dynamite into the water
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post #386 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 11:54 AM
 
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well I can catch more fish with no boat by throwing dynamite into the water

Working with your analogy, some people can only afford or know how to fish from a boat using dynamite. I prefer to fish the stream where the cold side waters enter the river or lake.
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post #387 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 11:54 AM
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my float tube was $50 ! biggrin.gif

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post #388 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I bet you can but it's not about catching fish because it's about the fishing boat just like it's about the journey, not the destination. We have a two week road trip planned to go through Sturgis, MT by car and I can assure you, there's nothing in Sturgis worth two weeks in a car other than a beer. tongue.gif And yes, going to Sturgis in a car, just for a lousy cold beer, is worth the effort.
biggrin.gif
-

Have fun, If you are satisfied with ordinary American type brew, try some BUD Ultra in the pretty blue bottle. I like it, but be careful it is sorta strong stuff.
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post #389 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 12:08 PM
 
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Have fun, If you are satisfied with ordinary American type brew, try some BUD Ultra in the pretty blue bottle. I like it, but be careful it is sorta strong stuff.

Currently having a "Fat Tire." If I could regularly afford some Parker Heritage Reserve bourbon, I'd choose that to ruin my liver with as opposed to Fat Tire. tongue.gif

The point, it's about the whole experience, not just the price. Some can afford a more expensive experience and I say, God bless them. Not enough here are willing to do that. If I could afford to trash my system and just for giggles, experiment between a set of higher end Martin Logans vs a 5.1 set of Vandersteens, I would. If just for giggles I could throw money away on the interconnect game, I would. If I could throw a bundle down on separates, I would. If I could win the lottery, I would, but boo, hoo, hoo; I can't. frown.gif

smile.gif

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post #390 of 438 Old 07-26-2012, 12:34 PM
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Damn, you guys lost me somewhere along the way of beer, boat, and fishing. eek.gif
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