Why pay $5000+ for speakers? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post


personally I would not want a set of Salk Soundscapes.

Really?
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post #182 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

No, your brain knows it's in a room and that the reflections will be HF attenuated and/or modified. You are being fed sensory input beyond your ears. If your mother spoke to you across an empty room you would still instantly recognize her voice. Adaptation is part of our sensory perceptual evolution (unless you are an audiophile or even worse, "studiophile" knuckle dragging type).

Is that same as getting use to a sound?

I had removed carpet i had on my stairs and wow, the amount of echo was sooo bad. Everytime somebody spoke it sounded like they were in a tank. I thought it was bad idea. But now after a few weeks of removing it, i don't hear any echo anymore. It sounds natural like before

That also makes me wonder about speaker break in. Are we not just getting use to the sound of the speakers in our room?

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post #183 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Threads like these are more amusing as a psychological exercise/study, than anything about speaker design/costs/marketing. It always seems that folk feel a need to justify their particular financial sensibilities, i.e. folks who can just about afford a $5k pair of speakers (and who place a maximum value on audio reproduction at about that level) will ask why anyone would need to spend more than $5k on a pair of speakers. Are they hoping for emotional support from others who agree with them to make them feel better or more comfortable about their own particular choices?

Folks who can just about afford a pair of $2k speakers are likely to bring that up as the pricepoint beyond which the law of diminishing returns dictates that the added costs outweigh the potential benefits/improvements by too great a margin. Likewise, folks who can afford $50k speakers are likely to state that there are lots of great speakers available for $50k and that there is no point in going higher in price etc. etc.

If you can afford it, go for it. If you're happy with what you have, even if they cost $39.99 MSRP, so be it. I think it's the folks that can just about justify $5k speakers (or $2k, or $10k, or whatever) but are afraid that $20k or $100k speakers just might actually be better who feel the need to justify their own decisions, limitations.

Now with that said, disregarding aesthetics, how about a list of what folks would consider, 'sonically world-class not really possible to get better sound in an average sized listening room' speakers in the $1k to $10k MSRP price range?


Max

This is where you are mistaken. I didn't start this thread to justify anything or a need for "emotional support"(what? really?). And i use $5000 as a baseline for boarding on expensive speakers. I should of just said "why buy expensive speakers?"

I was really curious about what people thought since it's pretty much a fact most of what you're paying for with high priced speakers is the fancy cabinet work among other things.

I don't have $5000 speakers. But in the search of upgrading i almost bought one. Listening to different speakers, cheap and expensive, it is my opinion that you don't have to spend a fortune to get top performance. Especially since half of what you're spending on expensive speakers didn't go towards their performance anyway.

This is a discussion forum in case you forgot. If this thread bothered you you should of scrolled pass it.

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post #184 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post



That also makes me wonder about speaker break in. Are we not just getting use to the sound of the speakers in our room?

That's a whole other can of worms.

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post #185 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 05:51 PM
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The whole id rather donate to charity argument cracks me up. Doubt many of you would even think of donating 5 k to a charity...if you would than donate it to my Kiwanis. Club!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #186 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

The whole id rather donate to charity argument cracks me up. Doubt many of you would even think of donating 5 k to a charity...if you would than donate it to my Kiwanis. Club!

I feel really bad........I'm going to donate $5,000 to charity right now.
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post #187 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Threads like these are more amusing as a psychological exercise/study, than anything about speaker design/costs/marketing. It always seems that folk feel a need to justify their particular financial sensibilities, i.e. folks who can just about afford a $5k pair of speakers (and who place a maximum value on audio reproduction at about that level) will ask why anyone would need to spend more than $5k on a pair of speakers. Are they hoping for emotional support from others who agree with them to make them feel better or more comfortable about their own particular choices?

Folks who can just about afford a pair of $2k speakers are likely to bring that up as the pricepoint beyond which the law of diminishing returns dictates that the added costs outweigh the potential benefits/improvements by too great a margin. Likewise, folks who can afford $50k speakers are likely to state that there are lots of great speakers available for $50k and that there is no point in going higher in price etc. etc.

If you can afford it, go for it. If you're happy with what you have, even if they cost $39.99 MSRP, so be it. I think it's the folks that can just about justify $5k speakers (or $2k, or $10k, or whatever) but are afraid that $20k or $100k speakers just might actually be better who feel the need to justify their own decisions, limitations.

Now with that said, disregarding aesthetics, how about a list of what folks would consider, 'sonically world-class not really possible to get better sound in an average sized listening room' speakers in the $1k to $10k MSRP price range?


Max

Yes, but wouldn't you just rather donate $100K to charity and feel good about it?
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post #188 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by acudeftechguy View Post

i feel really bad........i'm going to donate $5,000 to charity right now. :d

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #189 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Now contrast that to say a cool shaped gorgeous wood finish standmount designed by a weatherman, with all the visual cues to arouse the RAALtarboys.

dude, this is what makes you one of my favorite posters
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post #190 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Too much Smilies.

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post #191 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

$150,000? Okay, lets reverse the table a bit, what sound producing technology can they bring to the table that can't physically be done for $10k?

Plasma Tweeters, Electromagnets, Beryllium cones come to mind.
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post #192 of 438 Old 06-02-2012, 09:21 PM
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My speakers cost $175, and they sound absolutely fabulous. Can't imagine how anything could sound better. Marginally better, if anything. I think many people who spend more just have a deeply insecure need to show off for themselves and to others, to convince themselves that they have superior tastes and a keener discernment for quality sound than people who spend less. Right!?! Who's with me on this!??!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Threads like these are more amusing as a psychological exercise/study, than anything about speaker design/costs/marketing. It always seems that folk feel a need to justify their particular financial sensibilities, i.e. folks who can just about afford a $5k pair of speakers (and who place a maximum value on audio reproduction at about that level) will ask why anyone would need to spend more than $5k on a pair of speakers. Are they hoping for emotional support from others who agree with them to make them feel better or more comfortable about their own particular choices?

O noze, I've been BUSTED!

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #193 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

This is where you are mistaken. I didn't start this thread to justify anything or a need for "emotional support"(what? really?). And i use $5000 as a baseline for boarding on expensive speakers. I should of just said "why buy expensive speakers?"

I was really curious about what people thought since it's pretty much a fact most of what you're paying for with high priced speakers is the fancy cabinet work among other things.

I don't have $5000 speakers. But in the search of upgrading i almost bought one. Listening to different speakers, cheap and expensive, it is my opinion that you don't have to spend a fortune to get top performance. Especially since half of what you're spending on expensive speakers didn't go towards their performance anyway.

This is a discussion forum in case you forgot. If this thread bothered you you should of scrolled pass it.

I didn't say it bothered me, as I mentioned, I always find these amusing from a psychological standpoint.


As we've already seen, as the original poster, you set your mark at $5k, then we have folks that say they haven't heard anything cheaper than $10k that sounds anywhere near as good as stuff in the $30-$40k range, then we have someone coming in saying they would never spend anywhere near $5k on speakers because that money would be better spent elsewhere and that their far more economical speaker choices sound great.

See? Amusing. Everyone picks their own pricepoint and assigns their own value to an object (like speakers), and then consider everything past that point simply an exercise in extravagance. The problem is that folks will not be able to agree on something as subjective as this. Some will consider the differences between speakers above and below a particular pricepoint to be tangible and definitive, others will not and everyone will set their own pricepoint.

Which is why I asked what everyone considers to be a world-class pair of speakers in the $1k - $10k range. Some folks may say that you can get 90% of the way with something under $10k, others will say realistically speaking, you could get 75% of the way (100% being the point at which you can't get any better results acoustically speaking). Still others might say that you can get 99% of the way there at $800. How do we determine 75%, 90%, 99%, 100% etc. In this case, to each, his own, because people are going to have different criteria and weight things differently.

I can fully see someone justifying to themselves that $800 is the pricepoint for a pair of speakers beyond which it is pointless to pay for what they would perceive as only the last 1-5% improvement. They feel that their $800 speakers already provide 95-99% of sonic nirvana and adding $4200 to the price isn't worth the slight improvement they might get. Likewise though, I could also see someone deciding that they can't bear to listen to anything under $50k, because everything they've heard under $50k is compromised in one aspect or another.

What I WOULD like to hear though, are folks recommendations for speakers that THEY think get you 95% or perhaps more of what you could possibly get from a cost-is-no-object pair of speakers, but at a $1k-$10k pricepoint because I just might stumbling onto a gem hitherto unbeknownst to me.


Max
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post #194 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 02:49 AM
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That is quite a nice list of speakers. Since you say footprint/room size might be an issue why not consider monitors? I admit, I love a sub and I feel it just adds to my my overall experience but a monitor/sub combo can be excellent. A sub can help many a monitor and many a floorstander as well despite what traditionalists think (at least to my ears).

I also admit that I love monitors. I typically go the mfg line that is the peak I can afford then go up one level higher in the line and reach for the monitor.

You mentioned C2. I think they are great speakers. I also think you would get a lot of what you might be looking for with the C1. I sure do love Focal also and for me that would be another consideration.

I made a comment what a nice setup you can get for not a lot of money a week or so back as I picked up a couple of monitors and low end AVR just for bedroom duty. This holds true but boy when I sat back down with the Dynaudio's last night it was a completely different league. Was good to just listen how nice these speakers are after a week of being away.

I would add monitors to your list. As you can see the C1 is not overwhelming and the sound is excellent to me.

Rick

Rick,

I know a good monitor / multi sub system can sound amazing, especially for HT with 3 to 5 of the same monitors. NHT started the amazing SQ for the value 20 or so years ago with the Super Zeros. And since then it has moved upscale with bookshelve versions of high end lines, proving very good solutions and more forgiving on room dynamics.

However, until proven otherwise the best 2 channel I believe would come from full range towers powered with high current clean power. It may only excel over the monitor set-up a few passages per album, if even that, so yes it should be considered diminishing returns but I want that next few percent. I know even then there will still be several percent left on the table but that would take a lot more money/effort/room modifications to get any chunks of the last few percent. At some point you should except what you built and enjoy.

Thanks for your suggestions. You never know, maybe after all that I could buy the 201/2s from ADTG after he purchases JBL LSR 6332s or horn loaded high efficiency models to provide 125 Db of ear spliting HT fun to his house. :-)

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post #195 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Really?

Absolutely.


What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #196 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I didn't say it bothered me, as I mentioned, I always find these amusing from a psychological standpoint.

Same here.
The need to justify one's inclination or inability to spend a lot of money on audio negates the same objectivity many posters scream about here.
It is indeed quite interesting.

Quote:


As we've already seen, as the original poster, you set your mark at $5k, then we have folks that say they haven't heard anything cheaper than $10k that sounds anywhere near as good as stuff in the $30-$40k range, then we have someone coming in saying they would never spend anywhere near $5k on speakers because that money would be better spent elsewhere and that their far more economical speaker choices sound great.

See? Amusing. Everyone picks their own pricepoint and assigns their own value to an object (like speakers), and then consider everything past that point simply an exercise in extravagance. The problem is that folks will not be able to agree on something as subjective as this. Some will consider the differences between speakers above and below a particular pricepoint to be tangible and definitive, others will not and everyone will set their own pricepoint.

Which is why I asked what everyone considers to be a world-class pair of speakers in the $1k - $10k range. Some folks may say that you can get 90% of the way with something under $10k, others will say realistically speaking, you could get 75% of the way (100% being the point at which you can't get any better results acoustically speaking). Still others might say that you can get 99% of the way there at $800. How do we determine 75%, 90%, 99%, 100% etc. In this case, to each, his own, because people are going to have different criteria and weight things differently.

I can fully see someone justifying to themselves that $800 is the pricepoint for a pair of speakers beyond which it is pointless to pay for what they would perceive as only the last 1-5% improvement. They feel that their $800 speakers already provide 95-99% of sonic nirvana and adding $4200 to the price isn't worth the slight improvement they might get. Likewise though, I could also see someone deciding that they can't bear to listen to anything under $50k, because everything they've heard under $50k is compromised in one aspect or another.

What I WOULD like to hear though, are folks recommendations for speakers that THEY think get you 95% or perhaps more of what you could possibly get from a cost-is-no-object pair of speakers, but at a $1k-$10k pricepoint because I just might stumbling onto a gem hitherto unbeknownst to me.


Max


Good post.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #197 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

You never know, maybe after all that I could buy the 201/2s from ADTG after he purchases JBL LSR 6332s or horn loaded high efficiency models to provide 125 Db of ear spliting HT fun to his house. :-)

Actually, speaker collecting is my hobby.

Well, perhaps I'm guilty of speaker brand collecting.

I've always thought the 3 big names in speakers were Revel, KEF, & B&W.

I already have Revel & KEF.

I'm still waiting for the dumb a$$es @ B&W to get their off-axis/ polar response right - at least to look like my cheap P362.

I don't have any horns yet, though. So probably have to get some.

And I might wait for the Soundfield 1812.
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post #198 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

See? Amusing. Everyone picks their own pricepoint and assigns their own value to an object (like speakers), and then consider everything past that point simply an exercise in extravagance. The problem is that folks will not be able to agree on something as subjective as this. Some will consider the differences between speakers above and below a particular pricepoint to be tangible and definitive, others will not and everyone will set their own pricepoint.

this is the crux of the matter.

Ultimately, it's pretty much impossible to forum a consensus on a "universal pricepoint of diminshing returns" because the point of diminishng returns is affected by your subjective value assignment of sonic character, as well the amount of disposable income you are willing to allocate and also the objective factors like the type and size of room you are trying to fill. For instance, in my nearfield setup, I can achieve audio nirvana pretty easily and in my main HT setup, I am using bookshelf speakers with a sub and can achieve reference levels

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post #199 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 07:04 AM
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imo, the price point of "diminishing returns" comes rather low when it comes to audio (which is consistent with most everything else in the world)... "twice as good for twice as much money" doesn't exist once you are past a relatively modest price point... heck "10% more good for twice as much money" rarely, if ever, exists...

what remains after that is how much each individual is willing to pay to chase a bit of those diminishing returns... and that is entirely up to 2 things:

- do they have the disposable income to chase it?

- are they inclined to do so? that inclination can manifest itself in many ways... chasing the last elusive bit of sound quality... nice aesthetics... pride of ownership... the list goes on... none of those are invalid reasons...

anyone who does not "fit" into both of those categories (available funds and the inclination to spend them on their hobby of choice) can easily sit there and say "i'd never spend more than xxx on speakers"... that's not a class warfare argument (you'd know that if you knew me, but i figured i'd mention it)... that's just reality...

the "donate your money to charity" comment is borderline offensive, as the poster has no idea what charity work/donations others may already make...

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post #200 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


Actually, speaker collecting is my hobby.

Well, perhaps I'm guilty of speaker brand collecting.

I've always thought the 3 big names in speakers were Revel, KEF, & B&W.

I already have Revel & KEF.

I'm still waiting for the dumb a$$es @ B&W to get their off-axis/ polar response right - at least to look like my cheap P362.

I don't have any horns yet, though. So probably have to get some.

And I might wait for the Soundfield 1812.

I was just kidding, I knew you would not sell the 201/2s! Won't the high efficiency horns have to go in the family room where the wife and kids can enjoy those "Reference Level" and above SPLs? You have a great wife, obviously! I had to hide three B&W 685s in a cabinet with two B&W 618 ceiling speakers for surrounds in the Greatroom and she just uses the TV volume. She has, however,tolerated the Def Tech Powerfield 1500 sub in there but would not go for the Velodyne Optimum 12. ;-)

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post #201 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

this is the crux of the matter.

Ultimately, it's pretty much impossible to forum a consensus on a "universal pricepoint of diminshing returns" because the point of diminishng returns is affected by your subjective value assignment of sonic character, as well the amount of disposable income you are willing to allocate and also the objective factors like the type and size of room you are trying to fill. For instance, in my nearfield setup, I can achieve audio nirvana pretty easily and in my main HT setup, I am using bookshelf speakers with a sub and can achieve reference levels

Exactly. And I would add that near-field setups pretty much require smaller speakers. The larger the speaker, the further back the listener has to be.

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post #202 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 07:42 AM
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George Carlin come to mind when discussing speaker investment observations;

"Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?"
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post #203 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

George Carlin come to mind when discussing speaker investment observations;

"Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?"

Funny, I've been thinking Steven Wright:

"A fool and his money are soon partying."

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And boy, has Charlie Sheen partied!

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post #205 of 438 Old 06-03-2012, 09:32 AM
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I have owned the b&w 802d and the bottom line: great Near Field speakers at about 8 to 12 feet. In a larger room like mine with a 16 ft listening position, they are very anemic sounding at reference levels.

The avantgarde acoustics duo omega g2 and pass labs xa30.5 coupled with a 4-sub bg-radia bgx system are considerably more impressive than revels, b&w, focals, etc.

What surprises me in this forum is the combination of an arbitrary price point debate which includes only limited actual experience by many in the debate.

This thread can effectively be closed if anyone doubting dropped by my place... the average layperson was not stunned by my 802's but are floored by duo omegas.

I spent around 100k on the room and another 50k on equipment approx. the setup sounds better than any store setup i have ever heard in the country.

You only live once ... spending money on speakers is better (to me) than on charity since the manufacturer and shippers and everyone in between gets a job/work.

Blazar!
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post #206 of 438 Old 06-04-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

is there really a point?

Am i alone (or wrong) in this thinking?

No, there is no point and you are not alone or wrong.

I realized, about two days ago, that people who buy speakers that cost $1000's are very similar to people that collect paintings or coins. I used to envy them and their crazy awesome speakers; now I can't help but think of them more as a bunch of nerds arguing about who is going to have the best outfit for Comic-Con. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with collecting things, buying $10k speakers, or going to Comic-Con, it's just that the interests of the people involved in those things are not the same as the common person. To buy a snack from a vending machine you don't need that quarter minted in 1902; similarly, to have an amazing home theater doesn't require you to have those $10k speakers.

If a speaker can produce the required range of frequencies, at the volume levels you require for your room, without noticeably distorting, then that is as much speaker as you really need. Anything beyond that becomes personal taste and biased opinion. If it sounds amazing to you, then it is amazing. Could it be better, maybe, but do you care if it is already amazing? Most people say no, the ones who say yes spend lots of money on speakers.

When people ask questions about speakers some of the "yes people" are going to give them advice that is based on their personal tastes and opinions, not thinking about what is really required for the common person.
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post #207 of 438 Old 06-04-2012, 10:45 AM
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^^^

baloney...

read back through, and focus on the "arbitrary line drawing" posts...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #208 of 438 Old 06-04-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

That also makes me wonder about speaker break in. Are we not just getting use to the sound of the speakers in our room?

I've always thought of speaker break in as strecthing before going for a run. I always let the speakers play random music at medium volume while I'm at work for a few days before ever really setuping them up and listening to them.
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post #209 of 438 Old 06-04-2012, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

baloney...

read back through, and focus on the "arbitrary line drawing" posts...

Haha, yes, but I didn't draw a line, I imagine it more as sliding curves. Depending on your room size and desired listening levels the "line" will bend and move. Then depending on your personal tastes the line moves again; if you want crazy bass you will need different speakers than someone who doesn't; if you want to have a relaxing spa feel you can pick up some Bose and call it a day.

I don't think you should let others tell you where the line is, you should listen to what they have to say and learn from them what you can, then make your own choice based on your personal tastes and expectations. Anyone that tries to create one single line is just going to confuse/worry newcomers and passerbys.
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post #210 of 438 Old 06-04-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad horstkotte View Post

why spend $80k on a car?

Why spend $1k on a bike?

$5k on a camera?

$100 on blue jeans?

$10k on a couch?

Answer: Some people have a lot of money, and it's gonna get spent on something.

+1
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