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post #1 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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EDIT: I've purchased a Denon AVR-1612, two BIC FH-6T towers and a BIC FH6-LCR center. Now I need to buy or build a sub for a low cost. If you see the thread, I'm leaning towards a 3ft^3 enclosure with the Dayton Audio SD270A-88 10" DVC Sub from Parts Express, and I want to pair it with the 70 W plate amp. I run into really high cone excursion (8mm vs 6mm xmax) when running WinISD. Can I simply turn down the gain and expect to lower the wattage to, say, 35 W rms? Skim the thread for some more details! My last post explains a bit more.

 

Thanks!
 

 

 

 

Not sure if I should put this in HTiB or Speakers but I moved it here. If it needs to be moved back, please do so or let me know.

I've been lurking on the forums for quite some time now. I've even posted a bit and gotten really good replies but I am getting more and more confused as I learn more and more about home audio. (I've learned a lot so now I'm really confused)

Let me start by saying I REALLY want to stay under $500. I know it's not much, but I'm in college and I don't have a ton of money to spend. If I absolutely must, I can expand that budget a little bit. The area is about 17x23 ft, I'm not sure exactly it might be bigger. I will be listening to music, watching movies, and my roommates will be playing Xbox 360 so it needs to be well rounded. I started out by being dead set on the Onkyo HT-S7409 HTiB and just looked at AVS for reassurance, and at first I was happy, but I am really not so sure now. It's on sale for $469.54. HT-S7409

AVR: (Onkyo TX-NR609)
Pros: Network ready, Video Upscaling?, Powerful, 7.2, THX Certified
Cons: No Audyssey Multi EQ (just 2EQ), That's it..

Speakers: (Onkyo HTiB)
Pros: Almost free (~$100)
Cons: LOW sensitivity (R-79, F-81, C-83), HTiB speakers, Plastic, eh..

I am under the impression that MultiEQ will make the system sound much much better, and that the HTiB speakers really suck. If those are true, I might want to piece together a system instead of going HTiB.

I was wondering if it would be better to buy an AVR, some towers/bookshelves and a sub instead of trying to go 5.1

There is a sale on these Bic Speakers which I keep hearing about:
F12 (sub)
FH6-LCR (Left, Center, Right)
FH-65B (Bookshelf)
DV62SI (Bookshelf)
DV-62CLRS (Center)
DV52SI (Bookshelf)
DV-52CLRB (Center)
DV-32B (Bookshelf)
DV-32CLR (Center)
Dv64 (Tower)

I also saw this on sale today, Looks like it is actually the Jamo 426 HCS 3:
Energy PS500

Would it be best to get some combination of these and an AVR and then expand later on? I want at LEAST 2.1 for now, (I was looking at Towers and a sub but that leaves very very little for the AVR). Eventually I'd like to get up to 5.1 or even 7.1 but I will not be upgrading the AVR for at least a few years (probably).

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give as much information as I could! Thanks for any help! Please comment specifically on EQ if you can and give suggestions; I am open to all opinions!

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post #2 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 12:58 PM
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Go with 2.1 or 2.0 for now.

Denon 1612 is on closeout (last year's model) at a very good price.

Go with the BIC F12 and get a pair of bookshelves. Good entry level sub.

Or you might wait on the sub and get Polk Monitor60 towers on special at Newegg for $119 a piece.

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post #3 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 01:11 PM
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I also suggest the Denon 1612; that is a very good receiver for a modest price.

Your budget will not buy any subwoofer that is adequate for that room, so just get two speakers that have some decent bass.

The KEF iQ30 speakers are excellent and have been marked down from $598 to $398 per pair at KEF Direct.

If $398 is too much, you can get a pair of Polk Monitor 40 speakers for only $170, and they are fairly good.

A subwoofer for that size room needs to be a 12" sub with at least 350 watts RMS power, and will cost $500 and up.
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post #4 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Go with 2.1 or 2.0 for now.

Denon 1612 is on closeout (last year's model) at a very good price.

Go with the BIC F12 and get a pair of bookshelves. Good entry level sub.

Or you might wait on the sub and get Polk Monitor60 towers on special at Newegg for $119 a piece.

I've seen the Denon 1612 a few times, and I know it's pretty highly rated for budget builds, but I really thing I might miss the Wireless networking.. That being said it does have MultiEQ and it's seems like a great receiver.

Is there a specific reason you recommend the Polks over the BIC Towers? Bic also has their more expensive towers which I can get for ~$120 each, but they aren't as highly rated. The reason I ask is because I keep hearing great things about BIC America.

Thanks for the help!
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post #5 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I also suggest the Denon 1612; that is a very good receiver for a modest price.

Your budget will not buy any subwoofer that is adequate for that room, so just get two speakers that have some decent bass.

The KEF iQ30 speakers are excellent and have been marked down from $598 to $398 per pair at KEF Direct.

If $398 is too much, you can get a pair of Polk Monitor 40 speakers for only $170, and they are fairly good.

A subwoofer for that size room needs to be a 12" sub with at least 350 watts RMS power, and will cost $500 and up.

Thanks for the information.

As far as MultiEQ goes, how much does it actually help? If you go back a few years ago there was no such thing and people definitely had nice systems then. Also, is there a way I can miss the networking a little less? I mean I guess I can always use the Xbox 360 for music, but it's just not the same. (Also the Onkyo 609 and higher end Denon and Yamahas have Android apps, which is really, really nice to have)

I know that room is huge, but our primary listening location would be closer to the sub, in which I think it might be ok? I'll probably be moving this to a smaller room after next year.

Is there any advantage of going with the Monitor 40s over the 60s that were suggested earlier?

I guess it might be important to reiterate that I am in college, and as much as I'd like to have nice things, I know it just might not happen. That being said, I do want to have something that will get pretty loud, so sensitivity is a big plus. Also I definitely will need some bass to please my roommates and to make my neighbors angry so some sort of sub would be nice Those are the main reasons I'm going away from the 7409 HTiB.
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post #6 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 01:46 PM
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Another vote for the 1612; some good deals on it right now. As for speakers, I would go with 2.0 for now or maybe one of the Jamo deals I've seen floating around recently. The sub will be difficult as you need at least $500 to buy a sub that will pressurize that room properly so that may have to wait.
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post #7 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 02:35 PM
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The Polk Monitor series is very similar to the Polk TSi series (the new version) that you can hear at BestBuy. Good speakers for the money.

I haven't heard the BICs, but people on hear tend to talk favorably about the BIC FT series towers, not the DV towers.

MultiEQ will automagically EQ your speakers and sub for your room once you run the listening software. Can make a noticeable improvement that makes it worthwhile. And the 1612 got a very favorable review: http://www.hometheater.com/content/d...12-av-receiver.

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post #8 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

Another vote for the 1612; some good deals on it right now. As for speakers, I would go with 2.0 for now or maybe one of the Jamo deals I've seen floating around recently. The sub will be difficult as you need at least $500 to buy a sub that will pressurize that room properly so that may have to wait.

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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The Polk Monitor series is very similar to the Polk TSi series (the new version) that you can hear at BestBuy. Good speakers for the money.

I haven't heard the BICs, but people on hear tend to talk favorably about the BIC FT series towers, not the DV towers.

MultiEQ will automagically EQ your speakers and sub for your room once you run the listening software. Can make a noticeable improvement that makes it worthwhile. And the 1612 got a very favorable review: http://www.hometheater.com/content/d...12-av-receiver.

Ok, so let's assume that I go for the Denon 1612 for the time being. I can get that new for about $200, and that would leave me about $300 for speakers.

Since you mentioned the FT series I did some searching, and I saw the FT-6T for $155 each, shipped. Seems like a good deal and that would put me at my $500 limit. Would that be a good point to expand from, or would bookshelves + the Bic F12 Sub be better if I were looking to expand the system to 5.1 in ~2 years? I'll also note that when I move in 2 years, I'm sure my space will be considerably smaller (lets say ~200sq ft)
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post #9 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 03:35 PM
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You wont really get satisfying HT bass from those towers, you should look at saving up for a few paychecks and adding a sub no matter what speakers you get. But if you really want a 2.1 system right now you could for example get these pretty solid Boston A26's for $200pr

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...s-White/1.html

and this Dayton Sub1200 for $130

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-629

This will give you a really solid setup to build from. If you're willing to sacrifice the bass until you can buy a better sub, these DefTech 350's are only $240 today, and will get you into a mid level setup instead of the budget category.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882325059
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post #10 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anuj1450 View Post

Ok, so let's assume that I go for the Denon 1612 for the time being. I can get that new for about $200, and that would leave me about $300 for speakers.

Also, look at the Boston A250 towers.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...e/1.html#!more

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post #11 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

You wont really get satisfying HT bass from those towers, you should look at saving up for a few paychecks and adding a sub no matter what speakers you get. But if you really want a 2.1 system right now you could for example get these pretty solid Boston A26's for $200pr

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...s-White/1.html

and this Dayton Sub1200 for $130

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-629

This will give you a really solid setup to build from. If you're willing to sacrifice the bass until you can buy a better sub, these DefTech 350's are only $240 today, and will get you into a mid level setup instead of the budget category.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882325059

So you're saying the Def Techs are much better than the BIC FH6-LCR? Those were nice because I could probably have a 5.1 system based on that BIC series within 2 years rather then the Def Techs which would probably take me forever to save enough to build a solid system with.

I guess I really need to figure this out tonight then! It's KILLING ME!
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post #12 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anuj1450 View Post

I guess I really need to figure this out tonight then! It's KILLING ME!

If you desire the Bic, then buy them.

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post #13 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anuj1450 View Post

So you're saying the Def Techs are much better than the BIC FH6-LCR? Those were nice because I could probably have a 5.1 system based on that BIC series within 2 years rather then the Def Techs which would probably take me forever to save enough to build a solid system with.

I guess I really need to figure this out tonight then! It's KILLING ME!

Not necessarily. A ProCenter 1000 is close enough to work

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882325046

And in all honesty surrounds dont have to be from the same line to work. Any half way decent speaker can handle those duties sufficiently.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882428088

You wont match the SPL capabilities of the BIC's, but you expect to live in a much smaller space, so the increased resolution and accuracy would likely be better for you. Unless of course that isn't your goal. The BIC's are solid budget HT speakers.
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I have owned the Definitive Tech SM350, they are nice. They
have nice bass, mids and highs. I much prefer the Definitve
monopole sound, over the bi-polar sound. I have owned and
listened to the BIC DV series speakers. For me, The Bic mids
and highs, do not match the Definitive sound. The Definitive
has more detail, definition and balance.

Also, do not under estimate the Boston Speakers. They are not
your average entry level speakers. The A series was made to be
better than the CR and CS series. The Boston A26 and the center
A-225C, would be a nice beginning.

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post #15 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

If you desire the Bic, then buy them.

You know what, you're right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Not necessarily. A ProCenter 1000 is close enough to work

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882325046

And in all honesty surrounds dont have to be from the same line to work. Any half way decent speaker can handle those duties sufficiently.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882428088

You wont match the SPL capabilities of the BIC's, but you expect to live in a much smaller space, so the increased resolution and accuracy would likely be better for you. Unless of course that isn't your goal. The BIC's are solid budget HT speakers.

Yeah, it's clear that the Def Techs are going to be better speakers, especially in a smaller room. At the same time, I don't know where I'll be in 2 years, and I don't know what my ears will like then either. I think that I should start out modest and work my way up; I have bills to pay too! I think I've read enough good reviews about them and hell, I'm in college; my speakers should be loud!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

I have owned the Definitive Tech SM350, they are nice. They
have nice bass, mids and highs. I much prefer the Definitve
monopole sound, over the bi-polar sound. I have owned and
listened to the BIC DV series speakers. For me, The Bic mids
and highs, do not match the Definitive sound. The Definitive
has more detail, definition and balance.

Also, do not under estimate the Boston Speakers. They are not
your average entry level speakers. The A series was made to be
better than the CR and CS series. The Boston A26 with the center
A-225C, would be a nice beginning.

I have heard good things about the Boston A series, but I am not sure I like the white tower look. Also, I've heard that the horn in the FH6-LCR is a lot better in the mids and highs (although maybe that's not a great thing).


Thanks for all the suggestions guys! Although I guesss I ultimately had already made my decision before posting, I'm glad to have thought about it a few hundred times first

Ok so now that I'm going the FH6-LCR, I need to figure out my initial configuration. Here are my options:
  • 2.0 with an AVR with a few more features than the 1612 (NETWORKING!)
  • 2.1 with the 1612 and ~$100 sub (Yes, I know it's not big enough for the room)
  • 3.0 with the 1612
  • Onkyo HT-S7409
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post #16 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anuj1450 View Post

I have heard good things about the Boston A series, but I am not sure I like the white tower look. Also, I've heard that the horn in the FH6-LCR is a lot better in the mids and highs (although maybe that's not a great thing).

Really??? Horns will not make mids and highs better - however they
will be loud, and that is your desire. The main thing is, that you made
a decision. Have fun and good luck.

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post #17 of 32 Old 05-28-2012, 11:42 PM
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Go with the 2.1 option and a Dayton SUB-1200. It will give you solid output, even in your large room.
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post #18 of 32 Old 05-29-2012, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

Really??? Horns will not make mids and highs better - however they
will be loud, and that is your desire. The main thing is, that you made
a decision. Have fun and good luck.

Really? I must have misread something I read here on AVS.. Regardless, I hear they are better in the mid/highs than the DV series.. but maybe I read that wrong also..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Go with the 2.1 option and a Dayton SUB-1200. It will give you solid output, even in your large room.

I really need to stay under $100 on the sub for now.. I might try secondhand ones from CL, hopefully I can find a deal! Do you think I could build a halfway decent one for <100? I've been checking out the DIY forum..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anuj1450 View Post

Really? I must have misread something I read here on AVS.. Regardless, I hear they are better in the mid/highs than the DV series.. but maybe I read that wrong also..?



I really need to stay under $100 on the sub for now.. I might try secondhand ones from CL, hopefully I can find a deal! Do you think I could build a halfway decent one for <100? I've been checking out the DIY forum..

Can you build your own box? $100's tough because that is basically the cost of a cheap amp and woofer.
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post #20 of 32 Old 05-30-2012, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Can you build your own box? $100's tough because that is basically the cost of a cheap amp and woofer.

Yeah I know, it's an unfortunate situation.. But yeah I can definitely build my own box if needed! Do you have any suggestions on cheap woofers and amps? I looked in the DIY section, but most of the threads are between $300 and $1000. Any knowledge on building different boxes to try and get into the 25 Hz range even with a cheap woofer? I think I saw a thread on that..

I might try getting a cheap amp and woofer, but for now I'll just be using 2 or 3 of the BIC speakers without the woofer. Then in can always add in the woofer after I know I have enough for bills and whatnot.
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post #21 of 32 Old 05-30-2012, 06:02 PM
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Yeah I know, it's an unfortunate situation.. But yeah I can definitely build my own box if needed! Do you have any suggestions on cheap woofers and amps? I looked in the DIY section, but most of the threads are between $300 and $1000. Any knowledge on building different boxes to try and get into the 25 Hz range even with a cheap woofer? I think I saw a thread on that..

I might try getting a cheap amp and woofer, but for now I'll just be using 2 or 3 of the BIC speakers without the woofer. Then in can always add in the woofer after I know I have enough for bills and whatnot.

Alright, this wont be anything amazing, obviously. It will however go down to 20hz, and be very accurate ("musical").

SD270

SA25

2.5" Port Tube

Build a 19"x19"x20" box out of what ever .75" material you find for cheap (add a little bracing at least), and place the port I linked in it. You would be capable of 100 db down to 40hz, and 90db at 20hz without exceeding Xmax from the 25 watt amp.

In the future you could upgrade the driver/amp/port to a more powerful combination fairly easily.
LL
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post #22 of 32 Old 05-30-2012, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright, this wont be anything amazing, obviously. It will however go down to 20hz, and be very accurate ("musical").

SD270

SA25

2.5" Port Tube

Build a 19"x19"x20" box out of what ever .75" material you find for cheap (add a little bracing at least), and place the port I linked in it. You would be capable of 100 db down to 40hz, and 90db at 20hz without exceeding Xmax from the 25 watt amp.

In the future you could upgrade the driver/amp/port to a more powerful combination fairly easily.

WOW that's actually pretty good. Could you give me an idea of how loud the BIC F12 or something of the sort would be? It says something like 100w or 150w RMS, but I didn't see anything on dBs. I know the BIC's sensitivity is 90. I'm just asking so I can get some sort of reference on the 90-100 dBs this gets..

Edit: Also, are those the inside dimensions of the box?
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post #23 of 32 Old 05-30-2012, 06:31 PM
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WOW that's actually pretty good. Could you give me an idea of how loud the BIC F12 or something of the sort would be? It says something like 100w or 150w RMS, but I didn't see anything on dBs. I know the BIC's sensitivity is 90. I'm just asking so I can get some sort of reference on the 90-100 dBs this gets..

Edit: Also, are those the inside dimensions of the box?

Those are outer dimensions. The goal is 3 ft3 internal, Those dimensions get you 3.279 ft3, which gives you room for the driver/port, and a little bracing. The Bic is probably a lot louder above 40hz, I cant recall what it actually achieves. The problem with the bic, and every sub in this price range is, they dont go below 30hz, and they have peaks at 50hz. This actually gives you that smooth full range response.

If you're willing to spend $200, you can do a lot better.
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Those are outer dimensions. The goal is 3 ft3 internal, Those dimensions get you 3.279 ft3, which gives you room for the driver/port, and a little bracing. The Bic is probably a lot louder above 40hz, I cant recall what it actually achieves. The problem with the bic, and every sub in this price range is, they dont go below 30hz, and they have peaks at 50hz. This actually gives you that smooth full range response.

If you're willing to spend $200, you can do a lot better.

Ok, thanks so much for the help! I might be shooting you a pm if I decide to go this route.

As far as dBs, I have seen a lot for speakers, but not for subwoofers. What do you typically use during a movie? Let's say in a 250 sq ft room?
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I can tell you right now that you're not going to be 100% satisfied with any $100 sub if you like to listen loud in a large room, period. Including that DIY one. If loudness is more important then full range (20hz), we can do better then what I just recommended. I can show you a design similar to all these cheap commercial subs, to get tons of output, but it wont reach very low.

GW-215

SA70

Build the same size box as before (3ft3 internal), sealed. This gives you a large peak with tons of output. 113db at 60hz, but it really starts to roll off below 50hz. It will keep up with your Bics in a large room, and provide plenty of punch for parties, but for HT use this is a limited design.
LL
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Thanks you so much for the information! I know, this budget absolutely sucks but I don't know how much I will have available to me after school starts.

Could you let me know what program you're using for the simulation? I'd love to play around with that based on my ever changing budget.
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https://www.facebook.com/WinISD

Have fun!

Can't enter the values for the driver properly for some reason.. Any hints? I'm getting my data here: http://www.daytonaudio.com/media/res...ions-47085.pdf
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http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...inisd-pro.html

It's for an older version, but it's basically the same.
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post #30 of 32 Old 05-31-2012, 07:52 AM
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there's a sale on newegg of a definitive technology ProCinema 60 5.1 system for $250 they can't be that bad leaves with $250 or just get a 2 channel system & build it up later

It's all about those Oakland Raiders
P.S Fix Socom Zipper
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