floorstanding speakers in the 1-2k range - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

after you find a speaker you like stop visiting audio forums and start listening to the music. take it from a person that's on 5th set of speakers in 7 months. actually getting ready to pull the plug on set #6

You really should have that problem looked into

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post #92 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by John1400 View Post

I wonder what new members think when they come here and ask questions and look for advice and then they see all the s*** that follows?
Do they leave here more informed and content or more confused.
Simple questions turn into arguements and debates and then the graphs start coming in.
In the end, its kinda funny.
All I can say is TGIF!!

a little of both?

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post #93 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Dynaudio is another "accurate" speaker company like KEF and Revel who believes in a great on-axis and off-axis and all the other measurements too.

I hope the smilie meant you were joking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Maybe that's why we all need a few different systems for different music.

Shouldn't. One (pr) speaker should do it all...and not have other large objects affecting/impeding it's soundfield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I'll use my KEF 201/2 for 5.1 movies, Phil3 for jazz/alternative, Orion for classical, Salon2 for pop/rock.

Now I need another set for Karaoke.

I know this would violate your speaker hoarding policy, but have you ever considered/tried any of the above in the family room to see if they are capable (acoustically) of filling the desired roll?

Btw, my speakers were suggested to lifeis11 earlier in the thread (thanks Saturn). I would suggest otherwise. Not because they won't "sound great" with rock, but I think there are better choices for him.
If lifeis11 is in the NY area, I would suggest a trip here to hear these instead.
My 2c.

cheers,

AJ
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post #94 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I hope the smilie meant you were joking.


Shouldn't. One (pr) speaker should do it all...and not have other large objects affecting/impeding it's soundfield.


I know this would violate your speaker hoarding policy, but have you ever considered/tried any of the above in the family room to see if they are capable (acoustically) of filling the desired roll?

Btw, my speakers were suggested to lifeis11 earlier in the thread (thanks Saturn). I would suggest otherwise. Not because they won't "sound great" with rock, but I think there are better choices for him.
If lifeis11 is in the NY area, I would suggest a trip here to hear these instead.
My 2c.

cheers,

AJ

AJ,

you make just the one speaker? Is the coaxial mid/tweeter array the same one that Kef uses?

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post #95 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 11:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

AJ,
you make just the one speaker?

No, two are needed for stereo.
.
I have a couple models (unfortunately not the female variety) I'm working on, none yet quite ready for prime time. Coming soon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

Is the coaxial mid/tweeter array the same one that Kef uses?

On the Monitor1, yes, KEF did a heck of a job developing those for me.

cheers,

AJ
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post #96 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I hope the smilie meant you were joking.

Isn't Dynaudio accurate? I saw some of their measurements on Soundstage and they looked great.

Quote:


Shouldn't. One (pr) speaker should do it all...and not have other large objects affecting/impeding it's soundfield.

Now here I was joking. Yes, 1 great pr speaker should be able to do it all.

Quote:


I know this would violate your speaker hoarding policy, but have you ever considered/tried any of the above in the family room to see if they are capable (acoustically) of filling the desired roll?

Salon2 for karaoke?

I'm using the P362 in the family room for this role.

It works fine.

But let's face it.

It's time to stack the family room.
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post #97 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post


I guess I stepped right into that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

...
What would sorta make sense (hence strictly taboo on an audio site), is if folks sort of compiled a list and said, try to hear these yourself if you can. They have good basic measured parameters (no large amplitude deviations in say a 30 degree "listening window", no 0.5 ohm dips with crazy phase angles, no cardboard enclosures, bondo, etc, etc, etc.), I heard them and they "sounded great" to me in this room. Instead of - I like or own these things and so they are the greatest thing since slice bread because I like or own them. Or something to that effect. All while being slightly cognizant that the guy asking for two small narrow towers to appease the Mrs. doesn't want three Klipschorns across the front.

cheers,

AJ

+1!

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Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

...
Maybe KEF is not flat.
Maybe SongTowers are not flat.
Maybe they both are not flat....

Actually, none is perfectly flat, and those differences can be quite audible.

Quote:


and from myself:
after you find a speaker you like stop visiting audio forums and start listening to the music. take it from a person that's on 5th set of speakers in 7 months. actually getting ready to pull the plug on set #6

Best advice ever!

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post #98 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Isn't Dynaudio accurate? I saw some of their measurements on Soundstage and they looked great.

for the most part yes they are. However with some of the anniversary units they built them to be a little more "fun" if you will, so you might see with the Special 25s and Sapphires that their FR have some elevated lower trebbles plots. I know with the Sapphires with the grills on, they measure pretty flat, but with them off, they have a rise. typically tho, when you see their measurements for the Contours, Excites, Focus, Evidence and Confidence lines they have pretty flat FR's.

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post #99 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Isn't Dynaudio accurate?

.
From a measurements standpoint, they fall into the (very crowded) "dome over cone on flat baffle" paradigm...and all that entails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I saw some of their measurements on Soundstage and they looked great.

That's why measurements are a double edged sword. They are easily misinterpreted and very often misunderstood.
I'll pick an example from Soundstage: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/me...confidence_c4/ Not too shabby eh? (btw, this is a near statement product IIRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Salon2 for karaoke?

It's going to have to go somewhere when you clear the other room for the 1812s. Out the door?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I'm using the P362 in the family room for this role.
It works fine.
But let's face it.
It's time to stack the family room.

Gotcha. I thought there was some perceived deficiency that was prompting looks at Hi-eff, etc. type designs.
Perhaps more related to the signal being fed the microphone?

cheers,

AJ
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post #100 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

They are easily misinterpreted and very often misunderstood.
I'll pick an example from Soundstage: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/me...confidence_c4/ Not too shabby eh? (btw, this is a near statement product IIRC)

What is wrong with that Dynaudio anyway?


Quote:


It's going to have to go somewhere when you clear the other room for the 1812s.

Maybe.

Quote:


I thought there was some perceived deficiency that was prompting looks at Hi-eff, etc. type designs.
Perhaps more related to the signal being fed the microphone?

Why you.........
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post #101 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 09:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

What is wrong with that Dynaudio anyway?

Based on the Soundstage measurements, not much right? You did say you saw excellent measures on Soundstage, was/is this one? (Don't worry, no hole filled with wooden spikes under these leaves).

cheers,

AJ
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post #102 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 09:33 PM
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Measurements are a great asset/tool guys, but isn't it all about how they sound in our rooms in the end? I'm playing devil's advocate here, because we all know I am a fan of measurements, but there's more to it than just that.

For what it's worth, when I heard the Dynaudio C4 Mark II's I enjoyed them quite a bit. I also enjoyed the Sapphires, though not nearly as much because they had midrange and lower treble bite.

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post #103 of 151 Old 06-01-2012, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Based on the Soundstage measurements, not much right? You did say you saw excellent measures on Soundstage, was/is this one? (Don't worry, no hole filled with wooden spikes under these leaves).

cheers,

AJ

Are you referring to no vertical off-axis measurements or does it deal with the off-axis mismatch between tweeter and mid? Without the hole, I probably still rolled my ankle on the smallest twig.

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post #104 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Based on the Soundstage measurements, not much right? You did say you saw excellent measures on Soundstage, was/is this one? (Don't worry, no hole filled with wooden spikes under these leaves).

cheers,

AJ

Yes. Dynaudio C4. But I just saw the C1, and I change my mind about Dynaudio being very "accurate".
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post #105 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yes. Dynaudio C4. But I just saw the C1, and I change my mind about Dynaudio being very "accurate".

I would never try to change someones mind, cause really I dont care enough to try, but it seems that Stereophiles John Atkinson feels differently


Like Nuance said, the sound of the speakers speak for themselves. However some might like the tipped up sound of the anniversary units or the more neutral sound of the standards.

to each their own.

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post #106 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 09:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yes. Dynaudio C4.

Fair enough. Looked pretty good.
Ok, how about something more like this speaker?

Would you also expect it to sound quite different depending on room, ok in a very large one, maybe a show or showroom type setting, then suddenly quite different at home in your room? Maybe have you thinking about taming your "room problems" with those band-aid/gauze things on the wall (to somehow cure just that flare while leaving everything else miraculously untouched) or maybe some cable lifters?

cheers,

AJ
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post #107 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

I would never try to change someones mind, cause really I dont care enough to try, but it seems that Stereophiles John Atkinson feels differently

The C1 off-axis response does not look very smooth. Is that a 3kHz "bubble" or rise in energy that could be problematic?
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post #108 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The C1 off-axis response does not look very smooth. Is that a 3kHz "bubble" or rise in energy that could be problematic?

I guess I dont know what youre looking at.

when I look at these measurements, I get that its not a flat FR speaker, there are rises on both ends and a sharp dip in the middle.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/p...r-measurements

however I look at this one and it seems to have a much flatter, more accurate FR.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/d...r-measurements

Then I see this, and I think, wow, from a speaker that costs that much?
http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...r-measurements

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post #109 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

I guess I dont know what youre looking at.

when I look at these measurements, I get that its not a flat FR speaker, there are rises on both ends and a sharp dip in the middle.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/p...r-measurements

however I look at this one and it seems to have a much flatter, more accurate FR.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/d...r-measurements

Then I see this, and I think, wow, from a speaker that costs that much?
http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...r-measurements

You also have to understand how Stereophile does it's measurements, especially on the bass end.

The way they measure and splice in the results creates a "hump" on the bass side. This is explained somewhere on their site.

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post #110 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 02:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

I would never try to change someones mind, cause really I dont care enough to try, but it seems that Stereophiles John Atkinson feels differently

That is his opinion of the data, quite often a diplomatic one irreconcilable with what is shown.

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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

Like Nuance said, the sound of the speakers speak for themselves.

As do the measurements, since they are one in the same. The measurements being viewed are that of sound waves. At least that portion of the hearing process is being assessed.

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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

However some might like the tipped up sound of the anniversary units or the more neutral sound of the standards.
to each their own.

Indeed to the latter part, but how exactly would one determine "neutrality"? What sort of neutrality? Measured? Perceptually?
Especially given the fact that snapshots of the sound waves indicate otherwise? Why do you feel an acoustic source with such an excess power peak in an very audible area, would be somehow "neutral"?

cheers,

AJ
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post #111 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

As do the measurements, since they are one in the same. The measurements being viewed are that of sound waves. At least that portion of the hearing process is being assessed.

I don't know of any speaker engineer, worth any salt, that would rely on measurements alone.

Correlating measurements to what they hear is a different story, and does not mean they are one in the same.

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post #112 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I don't know of any speaker engineer, worth any salt, that would rely on measurements alone.

Correlating measurements to what they hear is a different story, and does not mean they are one in the same.

I don't know of anyone who took logic and remembered it worth a salt, that would commit such Red Herring and Strawman fallacies.
Either that or read slower. Ask questions.

cheers,

AJ
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post #113 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

I finally finished my comparison, so you can ask any questions there:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/888112-post39.html

I have to agree with your comments regarding the song towers. I found them to be very electronic and edgy sounding. They also had a very unnatural echo to the soundfield. The song ( you and your friend) by dire straits really stuck out in a unnatural way. But I am sure it was because of the recording.
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post #114 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I don't know of anyone who took logic and remembered it worth a salt, that would commit such Red Herring and Strawman fallacies.
Either that or read slower. Ask questions.

cheers,

AJ

OK...

You posted this:

Quote:


As do the measurements, since they are one in the same. The measurements being viewed are that of sound waves. At least that portion of the hearing process is being assessed.

Measurements, in your sentence, are one in the same as what? How a speaker sounds...correct? And each "speak" for themselves...is that also correct? There is a correlation.

AJ...as a speaker engineer/designer, with your personal hearing, how do you determine if what you hear is correct or what you expect from your design?

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post #115 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

AJ...as a speaker engineer/designer, with your personal hearing, how do you determine if what you hear is correct or what you expect from your design?

Measurements.
The only time I listen to a speaker after its been already designed (by measurements) and built, is (after measuring individually to see if there are any phase/components problems) right before packing them into their shipping boxes. Just to make sure there are no screws loose (in the speaker i.e.), leaks, etc.
Those are measurable too, but listening is a heck of a lot quicker and easier to do when it comes to rattles and squeaks.
Which would mean that a) You don't know me, b) I'm not worth a salt.
(Plus I'm not really an engineer, but I do play one on TV).

cheers,

AJ
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post #116 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Measurements.
The only time I listen to a speaker after its been already designed (by measurements) and built, is (after measuring individually to see if there are any phase/components problems) right before packing them into their shipping boxes. Just to make sure there are no screws loose (in the speaker i.e.), leaks, etc.
Those are measurable too, but listening is a heck of a lot quicker and easier to do when it comes to rattles and squeaks.
Which would mean that a) You don't know me, b) I'm not worth a salt.
(Plus I'm not really an engineer, but I do play one on TV).

What do your measurements need to match? The measurements on your site are limited.

After hearing the R300, I am interested in your speaker. How do they differ?

In reading your website, you state that you are regular attendee of classical and jazz performances at the USF school of music. What is the significance of that in your designs?

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post #117 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 03:59 PM
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imo you can throw measurments and graphs out the window. until you put a pair of speakers in "your"size room with "your" tables "your" seating arangements and "your" other furnishings you could have the best measured speaker out there and if its not in an enviroment that suits it, its not going to sound the same as it did when it first measured. just my 2 cents

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #118 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post

imo you can throw measurments and graphs out the window. until you put a pair of speakers in "your"size room with "your" tables "your" seating arangements and "your" other furnishings you could have the best measured speaker out there and if its not in an enviroment that suits it, its not going to sound the same as it did when it first measured. just my 2 cents

How do you propose to shop for speakers?

You need to start somewhere.

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post #119 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 04:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

What do your measurements need to match?

My targets for maximum smoothness in the polar field.

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The measurements on your site are limited.

Indeed. Part laziness, part busy-ness(full time "real" job), part not wanting to confuse with it's double edged nature.

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After hearing the R300, I am interested in your speaker. How do they differ?

I would hazard to guess mine are possibly more potent in the bass, having a larger driver/being active, etc., but I really don't know that much about the R300.

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In reading your website, you state that you are regular attendee of classical and jazz performances at the USF school of music. What is the significance of that in your designs?

It means that I enjoy listening to classical and jazz music.

Here's a question for you Curtis. I notice a lot of your posts involving me tend to focus on "me", rather than say, the measurements of certain Dynaudios and their lateral responses, sound power peaking, etc.
What rule of logic guides you in that direction? Would anything I said previously about, say, Ascend, consciously or subconsciously, dictate the compass?
Just curious.

cheers,

AJ
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post #120 of 151 Old 06-02-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Here's a question for you Curtis. I notice a lot of your posts involving me tend to focus on "me", rather than say, the measurements of certain Dynaudios and their lateral responses, sound power peaking, etc.
What rule of logic guides you in that direction? Would anything I said previously about, say, Ascend, consciously or subconsciously, dictate the compass?
Just curious.

cheers,

AJ

Quite simple. You focus on measurements of said speakers. I think many of us would like to compare the measurements to your speakers, but there are no comparable measurements. So instead, all we have is the things you post and your behavior. My mention of limited measurements on your site alludes to that.

I am truly interested in your speakers, and would like to see some of that information. I understand the double-edged nature, but you analyze the measurements of other products, why not allow the same for yours?. While I may not like your online personality, I do like your objective approach, but I would also like to know if any subjectiveness comes into play, which is why I asked the question about your love of classical and jazz music, and how that comes into play with your designs.

-curtis

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